RE: Public Schools

RE: Public Schools (Full Version)

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juliaoceania -> RE: Public Schools (3/14/2010 7:20:54 PM)
quote: California may well have the largest educational system in the world. I'm just saying that we're either in or just coming out of the greatest economic collapse since the Great Depression - citing that bankrupt states are cutting back on education in these circumstances as a failure of the educational system in general isn't being fair. They don't have any money and they're cutting back everywhere. I have no idea, but what was California doing back in 2007, before the crash? That would be a fairer period to judge the success or failure of their system. I'm sure that if you looked at Germany's educational system during the hyperinflation of the Weimar Republic or the educational system in the U. S. during the Depression they wouldn't measure up so well either. I agree, California has historically invested a great deal in her people. I am very happy to live here and I have visited many other states... I probably will never move away from here for long. There was a time when community college was free, students only had to pay for books, and resident fees were extremely low. We have California grants to fund students with a 2.0 or better for BA degree and fund promising grad students... Our UC system is world class... which is saying a lot for public universities. I am not trashing California secondary education... I wish our K thru 12 was nearly as good.

Musicmystery -> RE: Public Schools (3/14/2010 7:27:28 PM)
OK, julia. End of patience. This just has to be personal for you, doesn't it---post after post, toward everyone, lashing out personally. Enough. Here it is personally for you, then. You started by saying you had "radical ideas," but these are all very common and long repeated points, clichés for which you don't have articulate positions beyond throwing rhetorical questions and challenges at everyone raising problems with your claims. You are a very undisciplined thinker, flitting from point to point, unable and unwilling to build a case for any of them. You like to present yourself as an education insider, when you're actually a grad student. You are defensive and insecure in your command of your information and your positions, seeing disagreement as a threat, lashing out with insults at poster after poster bringing forth different positions. You've repeatedly raised debatable and even false points as established fact, and rail when people have asked you to support those points. This is how you wish to present yourself, fine. But Treasure was right--you do have a persecution complex. Insert insults. Enjoy. But like the others, I do have to say this has become pointless, and I am done with you.

juliaoceania -> RE: Public Schools (3/14/2010 7:33:45 PM)
quote: I do have to say this has become pointless, and I am done with you. I can only hope... please be done with me... especially the parts where you tell me I am wrong, when I was right about the cuts in California... I guess that irritated you. I was trying to be gentlewomanly by not pointing out how you declared I was "wrong" because I wasn't... I am wrong about many things, but when I am repeatedly asked to produce links every other post, and yet haven't asked anyone for one, well that comes off as me carrying all the weight of the canoe... how come you haven't asked anyone else for links, MM? Not subfever, who has made most of the same statements I have, not anyone else? Most of the info I have produced can be found with an easy google search... and that is why I do not ask other people to defend what they say, because I check it myself. I do not think it is fair to have one person googling incessantly to appease me.

juliaoceania -> RE: Public Schools (3/14/2010 7:38:22 PM)
quote: Worse yet, our education prepares us for this system. What else can education do now, besides preparing to play this corrupt game? We could discuss that... What could education do? What should it do? I think Tazzy had a good question.

tazzygirl -> RE: Public Schools (3/14/2010 7:39:59 PM)
quote: They took it into college with them. I have heard more than one story of people who have Ritalin scripts trading them for money.. pressure is on to study, and kids know that Ritalin helps them focus, so they abuse it as a study aid and it helps them stay awake. If you would provide links to show that there are less children on that drug than there used to be, I will be more than happy to say.. "my bad"...I hate the fact kids are drugged unnecessarily. I agree they did... to sell. The ones who are prescribed sell them to those who are stressed out to make good grades. Sounds like when i went to college and black beauties were the rage to stay awake and focus. quote: I do not think kids should be bullied at school. I remember seeing kids bullied, and my son related the same to me. He is a lot like me, take seeing other people treated like shit rather personally and defend other people, even if it puts a target on my back...unfortunately teachers often turn a blind eye to such behavior and do not stop it because they think it is just kids being kids. I agree kids should not be bullied... but to blame the educational system is blaming the wrong ones. Parents and their kids who bully should be held accountable... so should the teachers who turn a blind eye. More lawsuits should be filed... this is one of those situations when i believe lawsuits should have no cap. But instead of stopping at the school system, those suits should include the parents and the teachers themselves. Sometimes a deep pocket suit can have more of a sledgehammer effect. quote: Are you against funds for education? Where do you think they should come from? Not at all. But there are only so many funds to go around. Now what? What gets cut when the economy is bad? We all demand better teachers, better supplies, better classrooms, less student to teacher ratio... the money for these things does not appear from air.

Musicmystery -> RE: Public Schools (3/14/2010 7:42:23 PM)
quote: I can only hope... please be done with me. I came here on invitation and because I said I would. quote: So as not to derail MM's Sanity thread.. musicmystery said he would take his discussion here. Enjoy thinking in the mirror.

juliaoceania -> RE: Public Schools (3/14/2010 7:46:21 PM)
quote: I agree kids should not be bullied... but to blame the educational system is blaming the wrong ones. Parents and their kids who bully should be held accountable... so should the teachers who turn a blind eye. More lawsuits should be filed... this is one of those situations when i believe lawsuits should have no cap. But instead of stopping at the school system, those suits should include the parents and the teachers themselves. Sometimes a deep pocket suit can have more of a sledgehammer effect. The problem is that we have these kids that trot off to school to be victimized there, and they are state mandated to be there. That has ALWAYS bothered me. So because all of these kids are mandated to be there, and the adults responsible for them are the teachers and other school staff, yes, it is the responsibility to keep them emotionally safe. And I agree about the lawsuits. quote: Not at all. But there are only so many funds to go around. Now what? What gets cut when the economy is bad? We all demand better teachers, better supplies, better classrooms, less student to teacher ratio... the money for these things does not appear from air. Do you think it is fair that there are some kids that have food courts in their schools, most of their courses are college prep, they have top level materials, comfortable environments... yet in schools a few miles away they have none of these amenities? Do you think it is fair that some kids by an accident of birth get well funded schools, and other kids get the drippings from the plate? I mean they don't even get their own plate, they get the crumbs left over. There has to be ways to make the system more fair and create some sort of justice, economic justice. Now I want to get into a solution mode, here is my first attempt at solutions

juliaoceania -> RE: Public Schools (3/14/2010 7:47:55 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Musicmystery quote: I can only hope... please be done with me. I came here on invitation and because I said I would. quote: So as not to derail MM's Sanity thread.. musicmystery said he would take his discussion here. Enjoy thinking in the mirror. Enjoy being done with me... please.. please please... I would like to actually discuss with someone who hasn't asked me about 5 times today to produce "proof"

tazzygirl -> RE: Public Schools (3/14/2010 7:51:36 PM)
quote: The problem is that we have these kids that trot off to school to be victimized there, and they are state mandated to be there. That has ALWAYS bothered me. So because all of these kids are mandated to be there, and the adults responsible for them are the teachers and other school staff, yes, it is the responsibility to keep them emotionally safe. And I agree about the lawsuits. And here we are back to the "it takes a village to raise a child" idea... Its not just the teachers and school staff. Anytime i saw any child being bullied i charged on in. I didnt give a squat what anyone else was doing. But so many are into the... not my child.. syndrome.. or the... my child wont take shit off no one... psychosis... the ones being hurt are the kids... the ones skating are the adults... and we, the parents.. are allowing it to happen. quote: Do you think it is fair that there are some kids that have food courts in their schools, most of their courses are college prep, they have top level materials, comfortable environments... yet in schools a few miles away they have none of these amenities? Do you think it is fair that some kids by an accident of birth get well funded schools, and other kids get the drippings from the plate? I mean they don't even get their own plate, they get the crumbs left over. I do agree. Also realize that some of the most brilliant minds came from harlem. Some of the biggest criminals came from the best schools in California. Its not always about the school, but about the drive and ambition of the child.

Musicmystery -> RE: Public Schools (3/14/2010 7:57:18 PM)
quote: I would like to actually discuss with someone who hasn't asked me about 5 times today to produce "proof" No doubt.

juliaoceania -> RE: Public Schools (3/14/2010 7:58:58 PM)
quote: And here we are back to the "it takes a village to raise a child" idea... Its not just the teachers and school staff. Anytime i saw any child being bullied i charged on in. I didnt give a squat what anyone else was doing. But so many are into the... not my child.. syndrome.. or the... my child wont take shit off no one... psychosis... the ones being hurt are the kids... the ones skating are the adults... and we, the parents.. are allowing it to happen. I have asked this question before, and I will ask it to you, if you had a job where when you went to work every day you were ridiculed about your clothing, your weight, your looks, would you find a new job? You could quit and go to work elsewhere. Adults have that freedom, kids don't. Kids are forced to face their tormentors and they have no way to escape. This is why when occasionally some kid goes on campus and caps a few other students in the head everyone wants to sweep the dirty little secret under the rug, the kids who do that were usually unmercifully bullied... it does not justify murder, but these things do not happen in a vacuum. quote: I do agree. Also realize that some of the most brilliant minds came from harlem. Some of the biggest criminals came from the best schools in California. Its not always about the school, but about the drive and ambition of the child. Some people will succeed no matter where they are, and some people will fail no matter where they are. At the same, kids that go to well appointed schools know it is a given that they will go to college. It has been mapped out for years, their only fear is that they will not get into the school their parents want them to attend.

juliaoceania -> RE: Public Schools (3/14/2010 8:00:56 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Musicmystery quote: I would like to actually discuss with someone who hasn't asked me about 5 times today to produce "proof" No doubt. Yeah, imagine that, wanting to relax and post to people between writing papers without citing sources, etc... I am so intellectually bereft because I would rather casually discuss rather than be pumped for links repeatedly, shame on me[:(]

tazzygirl -> RE: Public Schools (3/14/2010 8:10:21 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania quote: And here we are back to the "it takes a village to raise a child" idea... Its not just the teachers and school staff. Anytime i saw any child being bullied i charged on in. I didnt give a squat what anyone else was doing. But so many are into the... not my child.. syndrome.. or the... my child wont take shit off no one... psychosis... the ones being hurt are the kids... the ones skating are the adults... and we, the parents.. are allowing it to happen. I have asked this question before, and I will ask it to you, if you had a job where when you went to work every day you were ridiculed about your clothing, your weight, your looks, would you find a new job? You could quit and go to work elsewhere. Adults have that freedom, kids don't. Kids are forced to face their tormentors and they have no way to escape. This is why when occasionally some kid goes on campus and caps a few other students in the head everyone wants to sweep the dirty little secret under the rug, the kids who do that were usually unmercifully bullied... it does not justify murder, but these things do not happen in a vacuum. I was one of those students. I had no choice. And i havent capped anyone as of yet. What i did do was make the best of a bad situation, worked hard to get good grades, kept to myself and went to college while most of those who bullied me stayed behind. That was my revenge. And not everyone can find a job like that. Even as an adult we get caught, trapped, and have to make the best of a bad situation. In this, we wont agree, but making life too soft for children is just as bad as having to deal with the bullies. Who will protect them when they hit the job market? quote: quote: I do agree. Also realize that some of the most brilliant minds came from harlem. Some of the biggest criminals came from the best schools in California. Its not always about the school, but about the drive and ambition of the child. Some people will succeed no matter where they are, and some people will fail no matter where they are. At the same, kids that go to well appointed schools know it is a given that they will go to college. It has been mapped out for years, their only fear is that they will not get into the school their parents want them to attend. An RN is an RN is an RN. Doesnt matter what school... as long as she passes the Boards, she is an RN ( or he). A dr.. well.. sometimes his choice of schooling can make a difference. But, when i need a Dr, im not about to ask what school he attended, especially in an ER. As much as people may want a level playing field, i dont see that happening. Not because i dont want it, but because society is too full of the haves and have-nots. The best we can do for our children is to equip them with enough self confidence, enough self esteem and enough basic skills to make it in the real world. Rose colored glasses are fine... just not very realistic.

tazzygirl -> RE: Public Schools (3/14/2010 8:19:41 PM)
~FR One question before bed... thank god i have a day off! What do any of you think of the no child left behind initiative and do you think its successful on the whole? is it successful for every child? why or why not?

juliaoceania -> RE: Public Schools (3/14/2010 8:19:53 PM)
quote: I was one of those students. I had no choice. And i havent capped anyone as of yet. What i did do was make the best of a bad situation, worked hard to get good grades, kept to myself and went to college while most of those who bullied me stayed behind. That was my revenge. And not everyone can find a job like that. Even as an adult we get caught, trapped, and have to make the best of a bad situation. In this, we wont agree, but making life too soft for children is just as bad as having to deal with the bullies. Who will protect them when they hit the job market? I am not talking about child playground skirmishes, I am talking targeted brutal bullying. One prepares you for the future, the other (especially for kids who lack support at home) can damage someone for the rest of their lives. I do not think it is okay on any level to tolerate that sort of bullying, and some of the stuff I am talking about teachers would have to be blind not to notice. quote: An RN is an RN is an RN. Doesnt matter what school... as long as she passes the Boards, she is an RN ( or he). A dr.. well.. sometimes his choice of schooling can make a difference. But, when i need a Dr, im not about to ask what school he attended, especially in an ER. As much as people may want a level playing field, i dont see that happening. Not because i dont want it, but because society is too full of the haves and have-nots. The best we can do for our children is to equip them with enough self confidence, enough self esteem and enough basic skills to make it in the real world. Rose colored glasses are fine... just not very realistic. I am not talking about a completely level playing field. I am talking about minimal equity... I think it is reasonable to expect that all kids get up-to-date texts, desks in temperature controlled environments, and adequate academic support/classes. If some schools can afford to have a mini mall food court, the feds can put some of the money they give those schools and give it to needy ones.

kdsub -> RE: Public Schools (3/14/2010 8:21:57 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania quote: ORIGINAL: Musicmystery quote: I would like to actually discuss with someone who hasn't asked me about 5 times today to produce "proof" No doubt. Yeah, imagine that, wanting to relax and post to people between writing papers without citing sources, etc... I am so intellectually bereft because I would rather casually discuss rather than be pumped for links repeatedly, shame on me[:(] But Julia if you want a casual talk then why state a position and when someone says they think differently get mad. They have the same rights as you to express opinions...If you claim them wrong with claims of fact then you should be obliged to present your evidence if they ask… We may only be asking to understand not to argue…and if you give them valid information they can’t. You have constantly posted links to books as proof of your position… all I can say to that is Glenn Beck and Rush Limbaugh write books too. You use examples such as inner city minority kids as if the whole of the school systems have the same problems...they don’t and many inner cities have fine school systems. You are taking particulars and assuming they apply to the vast school system, which you have no experience or information on. Butch

juliaoceania -> RE: Public Schools (3/14/2010 8:22:24 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl ~FR One question before bed... thank god i have a day off! What do any of you think of the no child left behind initiative and do you think its successful on the whole? is it successful for every child? why or why not? From my friends that are teachers, they have complained about it. I do not like judging schools by standardized testing. I think that is a bad way to gauge a school's success... also, it was never funded, which means that the good portions of it were never implemented... all stick, no carrot.

juliaoceania -> RE: Public Schools (3/14/2010 8:24:32 PM)
quote: You are taking particulars and assuming they apply to the vast school system, which you have no experience or information on. there are many success stories... there are many failures... in Los Angeles, there are many many failures and I have heard about them from people in the teaching profession here in this county. I know that many inner city schools have turned things around, but not all of them.... some of them are still war zones

kdsub -> RE: Public Schools (3/14/2010 8:26:11 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania quote: You are taking particulars and assuming they apply to the vast school system, which you have no experience or information on. there are many success stories... there are many failures... in Los Angeles, there are many many failures and I have heard about them from people in the teaching profession here in this county. I know that many inner city schools have turned things around, but not all of them.... some of them are still war zones Now we can agree there... lets congratulate ourselves....[:D]

juliaoceania -> RE: Public Schools (3/14/2010 8:29:43 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania quote: You are taking particulars and assuming they apply to the vast school system, which you have no experience or information on. there are many success stories... there are many failures... in Los Angeles, there are many many failures and I have heard about them from people in the teaching profession here in this county. I know that many inner city schools have turned things around, but not all of them.... some of them are still war zones Now we can agree there... lets congratulate ourselves....[:D] Not too fast, I was getting used to producing links... I expected to have you ask me which districts[:D]... and then I was going to have to ask you to wait until tomorrow night when I talk to a teacher that is in one of my classes... she has expressed some dismay at a school she used to teach at... it was really rough and she was worried she might have to teach there again with the budget cuts... no one wants to feel unsafe at work. Lots of teachers in those districts are real heroes... imagine working with kids that are often packing heat.

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