RE: Public Schools

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subfever -> RE: Public Schools (3/14/2010 1:09:51 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Moonhead quote: ORIGINAL: subfever quote: Most unsuccessful artists try to hold down a day job, rather than starving, you'll find. Bingo. And by so doing, are they pursuing their dreams by washing dishes or driving a taxi? Are they expending most of their energies to pursue their creative endeavors, or to extract enough money out of the monetary system to survive? So you'd be in favour of some sort of federal arts funding programme to stop them having to do that, then? I'm in favor of a complete economic and political overhaul, a resource-based economy which would include the right for all people to pursue their dreams.

juliaoceania -> RE: Public Schools (3/14/2010 1:12:03 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania quote: Old links, 2004 scholarship... again, let it go. It just ends up working against you, and against points that need to be raised. 2004 is not all that long ago, when I am doing my literature review that would be considered relevant... anything 10 years old or sooner... and if you cannot see why the Christian Right taking over school systems and curricula is an important piece of the puzzle for why schools are failing, well I guess there is nothing I can say about it that will influence you to see why this is a huge issue in the failing school system... I would not call it ego, I would call it intellectual honesty... I have some and if someone asks for proof and I provide it, I expect he person to at least review what I posted before dismissing it. He was prepared to reject it before I posted it, and I suppose I shouldn't have went out of my way to do so. I hate my time wasted. You have still failed to provide any viable information...or proof. I detailed the faults with your links...I'm open to you providing me real substantial information however...It is not for me to look up it is for you to prove. And I was wondering why you thought I insulted you saying you were radical when in a few posts later you said you were... Hard to keep track of your words isn't it. You always act like people are attacking you when they are not they just disagree...no need to call peoples posts bullshit... Musicmystery is right you need a coffee break. You are bright, articulate, and passionate but you need to learn you may not always be right. Butch I made an assertion.. I posted a book which is largely on google that supports this assertion.. you refuse to read the book and think that negates my proof without offering any counter argument... Just because you do not know about something doesn't mean that other people don't know about it. I find it odd that you keep addressing my posts when others have posted other information about it OFTEN. Perhaps you are ignorant to the Religious Right and their impact on politics and education over the last 20 or 30 so years, but this is pretty much common knowledge in my circles... and no, I do not think it is my job to educate you on what has been going on the last couple of decades because you weren't paying attention... start with reading the book I posted and then counter me. I think that some of my positions are radical... posting that the pledge of allegiance is a loyalty oath isn't radical, it is an easy to make deduction from reading the words...

Moonhead -> RE: Public Schools (3/14/2010 1:12:15 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania quote: So you'd be in favour of some sort of federal arts funding programme to stop them having to do that, then? We used to have a lot more funding for the arts during the Cold War to prove that we were superior to the Soviets..... that was first called into question under Reagan as being superfluous nonsense and in order to turn the public against supporting the arts the media started to cover artists that had edgy art... I remember one artist that photographed S&M scenes being set up as a straw man to get the public to defund the arts... I think that we could find some way to fund art in a way that supported art that isn't "marketable" Yep. On another education related note, you also chased all of that creationist nonsense out of the public school system in the '50s when it became apparent that the Soviets were winning the space race, didn't you? Pity that didn't stick either.

Moonhead -> RE: Public Schools (3/14/2010 1:13:39 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: subfever quote: ORIGINAL: Moonhead quote: ORIGINAL: subfever quote: Most unsuccessful artists try to hold down a day job, rather than starving, you'll find. Bingo. And by so doing, are they pursuing their dreams by washing dishes or driving a taxi? Are they expending most of their energies to pursue their creative endeavors, or to extract enough money out of the monetary system to survive? So you'd be in favour of some sort of federal arts funding programme to stop them having to do that, then? I'm in favor of a complete economic and political overhaul, a resource-based economy which would include the right for all people to pursue their dreams. No argument with that, then. I beg your pardon: I thought you were arguing from a more utilitarian standpoint.

juliaoceania -> RE: Public Schools (3/14/2010 1:15:12 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Moonhead quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania quote: So you'd be in favour of some sort of federal arts funding programme to stop them having to do that, then? We used to have a lot more funding for the arts during the Cold War to prove that we were superior to the Soviets..... that was first called into question under Reagan as being superfluous nonsense and in order to turn the public against supporting the arts the media started to cover artists that had edgy art... I remember one artist that photographed S&M scenes being set up as a straw man to get the public to defund the arts... I think that we could find some way to fund art in a way that supported art that isn't "marketable" Yep. On another education related note, you also chased all of that creationist nonsense out of the public school system in the '50s when it became apparent that the Soviets were winning the space race, didn't you? Pity that didn't stick either. Are you saying that the Cold War was good for American Intellectualism? In some ways it was I suppose... There was the other side of that though, like demonizing Marxist theory, black listing people, etc.

Musicmystery -> RE: Public Schools (3/14/2010 1:18:07 PM)
quote: I'm in favor of a complete economic and political overhaul, a resource-based economy which would include the right for all people to pursue their dreams. We have that now. Some dreams are just tougher than others. Not just in the arts---not eveyone's gonna play major league sports. They can, however, step out of the naive "believe and you'll achieve" paradigm and learn practical skills to best enable them to pursue those dreams effectively, as opposed to complaining the system and the society are working against them.

subfever -> RE: Public Schools (3/14/2010 1:20:27 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Moonhead quote: ORIGINAL: subfever quote: ORIGINAL: Moonhead quote: ORIGINAL: subfever quote: Most unsuccessful artists try to hold down a day job, rather than starving, you'll find. Bingo. And by so doing, are they pursuing their dreams by washing dishes or driving a taxi? Are they expending most of their energies to pursue their creative endeavors, or to extract enough money out of the monetary system to survive? So you'd be in favour of some sort of federal arts funding programme to stop them having to do that, then? I'm in favor of a complete economic and political overhaul, a resource-based economy which would include the right for all people to pursue their dreams. No argument with that, then. I beg your pardon: I thought you were arguing from a more utilitarian standpoint. Good thing then. For a moment, I thought all you'd be interested in is the left vs. right paradigm and treating symptoms.

subfever -> RE: Public Schools (3/14/2010 1:23:20 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Musicmystery quote: I'm in favor of a complete economic and political overhaul, a resource-based economy which would include the right for all people to pursue their dreams. We have that now. Some dreams are just tougher than others. Not just in the arts---not eveyone's gonna play major league sports. They can, however, step out of the naive "believe and you'll achieve" paradigm and learn practical skills to best enable them to pursue those dreams effectively, as opposed to complaining the system and the society are working against them. Let's leave society out of this for the moment. In your opinion, does the system work for or against the common man?

juliaoceania -> RE: Public Schools (3/14/2010 1:24:36 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Musicmystery quote: I'm in favor of a complete economic and political overhaul, a resource-based economy which would include the right for all people to pursue their dreams. We have that now. Some dreams are just tougher than others. Not just in the arts---not eveyone's gonna play major league sports. They can, however, step out of the naive "believe and you'll achieve" paradigm and learn practical skills to best enable them to pursue those dreams effectively, as opposed to complaining the system and the society are working against them. There are many people who pursued sports, weren't good enough for the pros, so they coach others with dreams. Or there are artists who go unrecognized so they teach others technique or art history. Just because one is not in the top tier of their profession does not mean they can't be a part of that world and do work that is rewarding and meaningful that they enjoy.... But someone has to work at Walmart, right? It might be better if there were smaller stores that people shopped at where those dreaming of being surrounded by pretty fashions could own them, or people who like guns could own the gun shops... etc etc etc... the corporate model does not encourage Main Street though.

Moonhead -> RE: Public Schools (3/14/2010 1:26:28 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania quote: ORIGINAL: Moonhead quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania quote: So you'd be in favour of some sort of federal arts funding programme to stop them having to do that, then? We used to have a lot more funding for the arts during the Cold War to prove that we were superior to the Soviets..... that was first called into question under Reagan as being superfluous nonsense and in order to turn the public against supporting the arts the media started to cover artists that had edgy art... I remember one artist that photographed S&M scenes being set up as a straw man to get the public to defund the arts... I think that we could find some way to fund art in a way that supported art that isn't "marketable" Yep. On another education related note, you also chased all of that creationist nonsense out of the public school system in the '50s when it became apparent that the Soviets were winning the space race, didn't you? Pity that didn't stick either. Are you saying that the Cold War was good for American Intellectualism? In some ways it was I suppose... There was the other side of that though, like demonizing Marxist theory, black listing people, etc. In that specific case it definitely was. In others (chasing Joseph Losey out of the country and -as you say- spawning two or three generations in a row who don't have a clue what socialism or communism actually mean) it definitely didn't. It did emerge that giving fairy stories equal time to the sciences in schools wasn't producing a lot of physicists or engineers, though, and that's something that seems to have been largely forgotten since the '50s, sadly.

Musicmystery -> RE: Public Schools (3/14/2010 1:26:50 PM)
And the corporate model doesn't determine the educational system. If it did, it would be far more efficient at accomplishing those corporate objectives.

juliaoceania -> RE: Public Schools (3/14/2010 1:27:08 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: subfever quote: ORIGINAL: Musicmystery quote: I'm in favor of a complete economic and political overhaul, a resource-based economy which would include the right for all people to pursue their dreams. We have that now. Some dreams are just tougher than others. Not just in the arts---not eveyone's gonna play major league sports. They can, however, step out of the naive "believe and you'll achieve" paradigm and learn practical skills to best enable them to pursue those dreams effectively, as opposed to complaining the system and the society are working against them. Let's leave society out of this for the moment. In your opinion, does the system work for or against the common man? Unfortunately it really is like what Marx said with regard to Alienation from what we produce... mechanized, devoid of artistic integrity or authenticity... like we are a bunch of consumers... Brave New World style... we live for brand names and define ourselves by them...how does this work for the average person?

kdsub -> RE: Public Schools (3/14/2010 1:28:18 PM)
Maybe we just don't agree on what proof is... to me that would be statistics saying how many of the thousands of school boards throughout the US have been taken over by the Christian Coalition and how this has affected our overall education. A book by an author I don't know and references I don't know means nothing of proof. Anyone can write a book just ask Musicmystery I am not arguing so I am not offering a counter argument...I just asked you to provide proof of your comment. If it makes you feel better to call people ignorant, childish, naive, or bullshitters OK but expect to get the same in return. If you are not radical surely you must know you sound it. But if you start calling the thousands of school boards in this country... taken over by the religious right… you will need to prove it to convince me. Now there is no doubt that some school boards have been…but some is a far cry then a general claim like you made. Butch

Musicmystery -> RE: Public Schools (3/14/2010 1:28:18 PM)
quote: Unfortunately it really is like what Marx said with regard to Alienation from what we produce... mechanized, devoid of artistic integrity or authenticity... like we are a bunch of consumers... Brave New World style... we live for brand names and define ourselves by them Nonsense. Support this.

juliaoceania -> RE: Public Schools (3/14/2010 1:28:40 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Musicmystery And the corporate model doesn't determine the educational system. If it did, it would be far more efficient at accomplishing those corporate objectives. So you see no relationship between Fordism. Modernism and the way we design our cities, building, and our social institutions?.... hmmmmm...

Musicmystery -> RE: Public Schools (3/14/2010 1:30:02 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania quote: ORIGINAL: Musicmystery And the corporate model doesn't determine the educational system. If it did, it would be far more efficient at accomplishing those corporate objectives. So you see no relationship between Fordism. Modernism and the way we design our cities, building, and our social institutions?.... hmmmmm... Of course there's a correspondence. Now support the claim that's the basis of education.

juliaoceania -> RE: Public Schools (3/14/2010 1:30:40 PM)
quote: A book by an author I don't know and references I don't know means nothing of proof. If you look at the publisher it is from a university press, if you look at the end there are notes... several pages of them. Now, perhaps you are unaware of how university publishing houses work, but one has to have some credentials to get published by one...

subfever -> RE: Public Schools (3/14/2010 1:33:00 PM)
quote: the corporate model does not encourage Main Street though. Julia, I typically don't think of you as understating. The corporate model has obliterated Main Street... lol

kdsub -> RE: Public Schools (3/14/2010 1:34:16 PM)
You can't prove it can you...ok I will let it go...then set back as you dance around Musicmystery's request for proof. Butch

juliaoceania -> RE: Public Schools (3/14/2010 1:34:28 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Musicmystery quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania quote: ORIGINAL: Musicmystery And the corporate model doesn't determine the educational system. If it did, it would be far more efficient at accomplishing those corporate objectives. So you see no relationship between Fordism. Modernism and the way we design our cities, building, and our social institutions?.... hmmmmm... Of course there's a correspondence. Now support the claim that's the basis of education. I was going to post to this... tell you what... i will talk to a professor I know who studies education, she is on my committee, and ask her for some references if you promise to read them.. it may mean you have to go buy a book....lol Otherwise I am not going to bother because it will be liking posting that book about the Religious Right... go unread and just trying to dismiss it even though it is an academic book[8\|]... I am not into time wasters (not saying you would do that, but once bitten, twice shy) Edited to add... some of this stuff are things that we read about in anthropology in theoretical models... and they are discussed in class as givens... like look at Foucault... the panopticon... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panopticon That is a really interesting concept....

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