RE: Why Are We Afraid to Tax the Super-Rich? (Full Version)

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Moonhead -> RE: Why Are We Afraid to Tax the Super-Rich? (3/14/2010 1:09:24 PM)

Yes, but my point was more that the American super rich aren't providing jobs or manufacturing in America, and your statement that the bulk of America's current manufacturing industry is sourced from overseas would seem to support that.




Level -> RE: Why Are We Afraid to Tax the Super-Rich? (3/14/2010 1:12:10 PM)

But, many of the super rich do provide jobs, and pay taxes.

Having said that, they could pay a bit more, and as has been stated, the whole taking the money offshore nonsense needs to be stopped.




Musicmystery -> RE: Why Are We Afraid to Tax the Super-Rich? (3/14/2010 1:21:55 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

Yes, but my point was more that the American super rich aren't providing jobs or manufacturing in America, and your statement that the bulk of America's current manufacturing industry is sourced from overseas would seem to support that.


No, that's not what I said.

I said we manufacture there, and they manufacture here, for a variety of reasons. Transportation costs, infrastructure, etc.

That in no way precludes domestic production by domestic companies. They manufacture here and abroad for the same variety of reasons.




Sanity -> RE: Why Are We Afraid to Tax the Super-Rich? (3/14/2010 1:24:33 PM)


Your strawman is pathetic, Moonbeam. As I pointed out earlier, the wealthy pay most of the taxes in the US, look it up. The poor here, the bottom 50%  pay practically nothing.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

No argument with that, but that's more down to international economics than the American plutocracy Sanity's terrified will leave the country if they're expected to pay the same percentage of income tax as people in his earnings bracket, isn't it?




Musicmystery -> RE: Why Are We Afraid to Tax the Super-Rich? (3/14/2010 1:24:50 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Level

But, many of the super rich do provide jobs, and pay taxes.

Having said that, they could pay a bit more, and as has been stated, the whole taking the money offshore nonsense needs to be stopped.



Whether we should or not, the proposed taxation involved is quite minor compared to the volume of income involved.

The offshore stuff is a red herring, though, and inaccurate at that.

We have taxed the rich historically much more heavily, and prospered. So either way, a poor point ill-suited to the argument.




cuckoldmepls -> RE: Why Are We Afraid to Tax the Super-Rich? (3/14/2010 1:29:13 PM)

The problem is that Congress (liberals and RINO's) and our current president can't control their spending. So no matter how much we give them or the rich give them, they will spend more. There's absolutely no point in feeding a forest fire, since trying to control their spending is pissing on a forest fire. It won't solve anything, and it will just make matters worse with government continuing to expand and take most of our paycheck eventually. By the way, the main difference between socialism and communism, is that with socialism you get to vote in the people who take most of your paycheck.

Even the CBO said it would make no difference whether you raise or lower taxes first, if Congress can't control their spending first.




Sanity -> RE: Why Are We Afraid to Tax the Super-Rich? (3/14/2010 1:31:28 PM)


Giving manufacturers incentives to stay here vs. giving them incentives to leave couldn't hurt. Neither could abundant affordable power or a business friendly environment. Look at California, they're showing everyone how not to do things. They have oppressive taxes, flickering power, hyper regulations, the worst kind of antibusiness environment generally that you can imagine - and they're bankrupt.




Level -> RE: Why Are We Afraid to Tax the Super-Rich? (3/14/2010 1:34:22 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery


quote:

ORIGINAL: Level

But, many of the super rich do provide jobs, and pay taxes.

Having said that, they could pay a bit more, and as has been stated, the whole taking the money offshore nonsense needs to be stopped.



Whether we should or not, the proposed taxation involved is quite minor compared to the volume of income involved.

The offshore stuff is a red herring, though, and inaccurate at that.

We have taxed the rich historically much more heavily, and prospered. So either way, a poor point ill-suited to the argument.


I don't know why it would be "inaccurate". That, and other ways of avoiding taxes, should be resolved, but that's not a magic solution for what ails us, I agree.

I don't have any real answers, but I've felt for a long time now that we're looking for those answers in the wrong place.




zenny -> RE: Why Are We Afraid to Tax the Super-Rich? (3/14/2010 1:34:45 PM)

musicmysetery, I must say I couldn't help but laugh at your usage of profits, across countries, to imply that jobs were increasing in a specific one. I was about to point out the fallacy but it's moot. Hell, I bet you don't even know why unemployment statistics don't increase after about 6 months even as the actual number does increase.




Moonhead -> RE: Why Are We Afraid to Tax the Super-Rich? (3/14/2010 1:35:48 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity


Your strawman is pathetic, Moonbeam. As I pointed out earlier, the wealthy pay most of the taxes in the US, look it up. The poor here, the bottom 50%  pay practically nothing.

That's because even the tiny percentage of their assets they can't weasel out of paying is a lot more than the bottom 50% make in a decade.
And this thread wouldn't be happening in the first place if they weren't getting all arsey about even paying that much.




Musicmystery -> RE: Why Are We Afraid to Tax the Super-Rich? (3/14/2010 1:37:04 PM)

quote:

I don't know why it would be "inaccurate"

Here's how.

We're actually running a manufacturing trade surplus with our free trade partners--$2.7 billion.

People love to point to anecdotal evidence of industry moving overseas. Yet, overseas manufacturers move here too, for a variety of reasons. Goods are produced globally where it makes sense good by good, country by country. That includes then $14 trillion U.S. economy, one-fifth of the global economy.

From the Dept. of Commerce:
“These figures show that our FTAs are succeeding and that Americans benefit from open markets,” Gutierrez said. Our trade balance with FTA partners has swung from a deficit to a surplus proving that open markets are a key ingredient to the competitiveness of U.S. manufacturing and the health of the U.S. economy. Last year, manufacturing accounted for 62 percent of America’s record $1.6 trillion exports in goods and services.

"This improvement in the trade balance is due to the increasing competitiveness of U.S. manufactured goods. Since 2002, FTAs have helped U.S. manufactured exports grow steadily and at a faster rate than imports — 63 percent compared to only 42 percent, respectively, year-to-date through May 2008 (compared to same period of 2002).

"These calculations are based on the monthly data released by the U.S. Census Bureau and the Bureau of Economic Analysis in the FT900: U.S. International Trade in Goods and Services, as revised annually."






Musicmystery -> RE: Why Are We Afraid to Tax the Super-Rich? (3/14/2010 1:39:32 PM)

quote:

to imply that jobs were increasing

Didn't say that at all. Read what I wrote.

I said we're not bleeding manufacturing as some claim.

In fact, I didn't mention jobs at all.


quote:

Hell, I bet you don't even know why unemployment statistics don't increase after about 6 months even as the actual number does increase.

At first, businesses turn to cost cutting to salvage profits. That includes jobs. But cost cutting can only go so far.

GDP has been rising since the third quarter of last year, and was up 5.7% in the fourth quarter. This is depleting already low inventories. As those run out in the face of continued and increasing demand (as GDP indicates), businesses will have to turn to rehiring to fill those orders.

Look for upturns around this summer. Slow at first, but steady.





Level -> RE: Why Are We Afraid to Tax the Super-Rich? (3/14/2010 1:44:56 PM)

Tim, I don't dispute that, but it doesn't render inaccurate that certain companies, and individuals, cheat the tax system.

And, more directly, are the new manufacturing jobs good ones? Some are, like the Japanese car plants opening here; but then again, for someone that worked for GM or Ford, taking that would be a step down.

And how are we increasing our competitiveness? Working more hours? Slowing down raises in pay, or losing benefits? Or getting better at what we do, improving what we do? Some of both?

Lastly (gotta go hit the shower), we did prosper under higher taxes once; would that work now, in this different world?




Level -> RE: Why Are We Afraid to Tax the Super-Rich? (3/14/2010 1:46:55 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery
GDP has been rising since the third quarter of last year, and was up 5.7% in the fourth quarter. This is depleting already low inventories. As those run out in the face of continued and increasing demand (as GDP indicates), businesses will have to turn to rehiring to fill those orders.

Look for upturns around this summer. Slow at first, but steady.


I saw that temp hiring is already increasing, that it's a way of business testing the waters, before they begin hiring. Hope so!




Musicmystery -> RE: Why Are We Afraid to Tax the Super-Rich? (3/14/2010 1:47:35 PM)

quote:

but it doesn't render inaccurate that certain companies, and individuals, cheat the tax system.

I've never claimed that, here or anywhere else.




Moonhead -> RE: Why Are We Afraid to Tax the Super-Rich? (3/14/2010 1:48:27 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Level
Lastly (gotta go hit the shower), we did prosper under higher taxes once; would that work now, in this different world?

Most of the European countries that have a far higher set of tax rates seem to be doing a lot better and have a population who are earning more. It's only the UK's sketchy impersonation of whatever America was doing six months ago and Iceland's bubble economy that have fucked up bigtime, isn't it?




LadyEllen -> RE: Why Are We Afraid to Tax the Super-Rich? (3/14/2010 1:53:12 PM)

Keeping US Manufacturing Competitive, and reaching that trade surplus..............

The prison industry complex is one of the fastest-growing industries in the United States and its investors are on Wall Street. "This multimillion-dollar industry has its own trade exhibitions, conventions, websites, and mail-order/Internet catalogs. It also has direct advertising campaigns, architecture companies, construction companies, investment houses on Wall Street, plumbing supply companies, food supply companies, armed security, and padded cells in a large variety of colors."
 
According to the Left Business Observer, the federal prison industry produces 100% of all military helmets, ammunition belts, bullet-proof vests, ID tags, shirts, pants, tents, bags, and canteens. Along with war supplies, prison workers supply 98% of the entire market for equipment assembly services; 93% of paints and paintbrushes; 92% of stove assembly; 46% of body armor; 36% of home appliances; 30% of headphones/microphones/speakers; and 21% of office furniture. Airplane parts, medical supplies, and much more: prisoners are even raising seeing-eye dogs for blind people.
 
HISTORY OF PRISON LABOR IN THE UNITED STATES
Prison labor has its roots in slavery. After the 1861-1865 Civil War, a system of "hiring out prisoners" was introduced in order to continue the slavery tradition. Freed slaves were charged with not carrying out their sharecropping commitments (cultivating someone else's land in exchange for part of the harvest) or petty thievery - which were almost never proven - and were then "hired out" for cotton picking, working in mines and building railroads. From 1870 until 1910 in the state of Georgia, 88% of hired-out convicts were Black. In Alabama, 93% of "hired-out" miners were Black. In Mississippi, a huge prison farm similar to the old slave plantations replaced the system of hiring out convicts. The notorious Parchman plantation existed until 1972.
During the post-Civil War period, Jim Crow racial segregation laws were imposed on every state, with legal segregation in schools, housing, marriages and many other aspects of daily life. "Today, a new set of markedly racist laws is imposing slave labor and sweatshops on the criminal justice system, now known as the prison industry complex," comments the Left Business Observer.
 
Who is investing? At least 37 states have legalized the contracting of prison labor by private corporations that mount their operations inside state prisons. The list of such companies contains the cream of U.S. corporate society: IBM, Boeing, Motorola, Microsoft, AT&T, Wireless, Texas Instrument, Dell, Compaq, Honeywell, Hewlett-Packard, Nortel, Lucent Technologies, 3Com, Intel, Northern Telecom, TWA, Nordstrom's, Revlon, Macy's, Pierre Cardin, Target Stores, and many more. All of these businesses are excited about the economic boom generation by prison labor. Just between 1980 and 1994, profits went up from $392 million to $1.31 billion. Inmates in state penitentiaries generally receive the minimum wage for their work, but not all; in Colorado, they get about $2 per hour, well under the minimum. And in privately-run prisons, they receive as little as 17 cents per hour for a maximum of six hours a day, the equivalent of $20 per month. The highest-paying private prison is CCA in Tennessee, where prisoners receive 50 cents per hour for what they call "highly skilled positions." At those rates, it is no surprise that inmates find the pay in federal prisons to be very generous. There, they can earn $1.25 an hour and work eight hours a day, and sometimes overtime. They can send home $200-$300 per month.
 
Thanks to prison labor, the United States is once again an attractive location for investment in work that was designed for Third World labor markets. A company that operated a maquiladora (assembly plant in Mexico near the border) closed down its operations there and relocated to San Quentin State Prison in California. In Texas, a factory fired its 150 workers and contracted the services of prisoner-workers from the private Lockhart Texas prison, where circuit boards are assembled for companies like IBM and Compaq.
 
[Former] Oregon State Representative Kevin Mannix recently urged Nike to cut its production in Indonesia and bring it to his state, telling the shoe manufacturer that "there won't be any transportation costs; we're offering you competitive prison labor (here)."
 

Good old slave labour.

E




Moonhead -> RE: Why Are We Afraid to Tax the Super-Rich? (3/14/2010 1:58:36 PM)

That's probably only a temporary solution, given America's fast aging prison population (that three strikes and you're out foolishness has left a lot of the prison population who'll only ever leave in a box), and even worse, it's surely a Federal, big government solution as well...




LadyEllen -> RE: Why Are We Afraid to Tax the Super-Rich? (3/14/2010 2:06:46 PM)

Plenty more to lock up yet MH - millions of them in certain areas of the country and plenty coming over the border too. Whats more, they breed like rabbits so I'm told, purely in order to acquire more social benefits from the rest of the population. So I guess all in all its only fair that one or two family members get long prison sentences and repay that "debt to society".

What an odd situation. The right scream for longer and longer sentences and more severe application of those sentences, convict far more non whites than anyone else and then make money off of the slave population they have created, whereby they also can say how well the country is doing according to the stats. Meanwhile the country is going down the shitter and those already struggling are encouraged into crime to get by, whereby they might enjoy a manufacturing career c/o of these scumbags.

E




Moonhead -> RE: Why Are We Afraid to Tax the Super-Rich? (3/14/2010 2:21:14 PM)

Very true, but (as I said) there's a lot of people in the American prison system who are way past getting any work out of them. They aren't providing any slave labour, but they still have to be fed and housed in a cell that could be hosting a virile young gangbanger instead. Whatever regulations you impose, a half blind octagenrian on a walker probably isn't going to be a big help to this particular economic miracle.

The whole hard right clampdown has been a disaster, so far, and exploiting it for slave labour hasn't really done much to recoup the money that's going on running the prisons. It's strange how the neocons set up crap like this but still get to claim to be into thin government and cutting costs. I wonder what the prison budget for California was last year? They're probably not getting a fraction of that from setting up a few chip factories.




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