RE: Why Are We Afraid to Tax the Super-Rich? (Full Version)

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Musicmystery -> RE: Why Are We Afraid to Tax the Super-Rich? (3/16/2010 11:34:59 AM)

Wow.

It's hard to counter such an insightful analysis as "blah blah blah."

Apply for Mensa immediately.



MrRodgers -> RE: Why Are We Afraid to Tax the Super-Rich? (3/16/2010 1:29:00 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity


The super rich provide jobs, and they pay most of the taxes here. What is "their fair share" in your book. Like Brian, if they're not rotting in prison they haven't paid enough, I suppose? Or if they're still in the country, if they haven't been driven offshore yet, they haven't paid enough?

Just how much is "their fair share"? 

The top ONE (1%) of the poeple make 20-22% of all income, their highest level on record

...and pay 20-22% of federal taxes, their lowest level on record. 99% of the people make 80% of the income and pay about 80% of the taxes.

The top 20% net worth is 85% of all the wealth. The other 80% own 15% of the wealth. A large segment of our population for example in large cities, are like NY where the bottom 20% or approx. 1.5 million people have ZERO net worth.

The richest Americans and corporations have seen their tax rates fall for over 40 years to less than 1/2 what it was. Where are all of the jobs ? The Fortune 500 has not created one new net job in the US in over 40 years.

Don't know how the idea ever got started that wealthier earners or corporations create jobs. They reduce employment and it is the balance of the 'marketplace' that creates jobs.

'They' do not create jobs at all and have been gaining much more wealth while their taxes have plummeted...reduced by $trillions since the 50's.



MrRodgers -> RE: Why Are We Afraid to Tax the Super-Rich? (3/16/2010 1:35:45 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

They seem to have less of a deficit than either of our countries, and given what a lager costs in Finland, they must be making more as well.

The fact that Norway has a few decent offshore oil fields and Sweden does very well out of food exports can't hurt either. Also, scandinavian manufacturing isn't doing too badly, and I think Saabs and Volvos are both manufactured almost wholly in their home countries.

Norway is the 3rd richest country in the world and one of the largest oil and gas exporters in the world. Norway has not joined the EU or adopted the Euro so are beholden to nobody but themselves. Seems they really fucked up...didn't they ?






Moonhead -> RE: Why Are We Afraid to Tax the Super-Rich? (3/16/2010 3:17:00 PM)

They haven't adopted the Euro, but they are in the EU.



MrRodgers -> RE: Why Are We Afraid to Tax the Super-Rich? (3/16/2010 5:58:11 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

They haven't adopted the Euro, but they are in the EU.

From European Commission External relations...

Despite two failed attempts by referendum to enter the European Community in 1972 and the European Union in 1994, the question of whether or not Norway should once again apply for EU membership has been regularly raised in the past few years in the national Norwegian policy debate. This, however, is not going to have any practical consequences in the immediate future.



LadyEllen -> RE: Why Are We Afraid to Tax the Super-Rich? (3/17/2010 3:49:03 AM)

Norway is not in the EU, neither is Swizterland, Iceland, the host of tiny principalities like San Marino or any of the former Yugoslavia except Slovenia. The rest of Europe as far as the eastern borders with Russia, Belarus, Ukraine and Turkey is, with Malta being the furthest southerly member.

I wonder whether we would be in the EU, had the size of the North Sea oil reserves been known at the time. Their share of it has kept the Norwegians very nicely off indeed, and had we joined knowing about ours we should have easily been able to be head of table rather than joining out of desperation and being sidelined (and sidelining ourselves it must be said) for decades.

E



Moonhead -> RE: Why Are We Afraid to Tax the Super-Rich? (3/17/2010 6:10:03 AM)

My mistake. I was thinking of Sweden.



Archer -> RE: Why Are We Afraid to Tax the Super-Rich? (3/17/2010 2:30:54 PM)

Gotta define super rich, because small business owners filing as LLC's and S corps file their business income on their personal Income taxes and thus get recorded as "super rich"

That guy who owns the Hardee's franchise on the corner hires folks makes jobs and gets hammered on the taxes as well.

Want to know what happens to states when they tax the super rich? Take a look at New Jersey they did exactly that and guess what? The rich moved the hell out of New Jersey and it cost New Jersey billions in tax income as they increased the taxes on the wealthy.

http://www.reboottherepublic.com/blog/economics/new-jersey-loses-70-billion-as-wealthy-residents-flee-due-to-taxes/

http://blog.nj.com/njv_tom_byrne/2010/02/taxes_and_tipping_points.html

Two references so it's ballanced a bit better.

But the 70 billion dollars tax LOSS to New Jersey is fact shown in both articles, how much of that is related to the millionaire tax New Jersey passed you might argue some but even the best folks couldn't argue all that loss away from the tax policy.



LaTigresse -> RE: Why Are We Afraid to Tax the Super-Rich? (3/17/2010 3:25:11 PM)

From what I can see, we do not tax the super rich because the politicians are in their pockets. Would you do something to piss off the people that got you your job?



Moonhead -> RE: Why Are We Afraid to Tax the Super-Rich? (3/17/2010 3:25:56 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

From what I can see, we do not tax the super rich because the politicians are in their pockets. Would you do something to piss off the people that got you your job?

It'd depend on how much I liked my job.



LaTigresse -> RE: Why Are We Afraid to Tax the Super-Rich? (3/17/2010 3:29:22 PM)

It appears to pay well.



Moonhead -> RE: Why Are We Afraid to Tax the Super-Rich? (3/17/2010 3:31:50 PM)

There is that.



LadyEllen -> RE: Why Are We Afraid to Tax the Super-Rich? (3/17/2010 3:42:49 PM)

I think that may be a reasonable point Archer - as well as the implied point that its all relative really.

For instance, my group of companies makes around $5million sales in a year and there is no doubt whatever that it affords me a very good income indeed (it'd be even better without an ex and offspring draining it off!), but I am not rich and certainly not super rich - rather I get by comfortably at a middle class income, and wonder how people manage on average salary, still more on minimum wage or benefits.

Relative to most of the people in my neighbourhood, I'm a millionaire though - there cant be any more than a handful of us here (and I'd be the only non-Muslim) that are comfortable in that way. But I'm not an actual millionaire, nor even anywhere close to that.

Meanwhile, there are (apparently) one million millionaires in the UK. But even they are not rich or even super rich; most of them have their money locked up in homes or businesses they work at so they hardly have bundles of cash lying around. The rich then must be at least multi-millionaires, by which I mean net worth in tens or hundreds of millions, enough that they do have some significant cash lying around but most of it is employed in businesses they also work within.

But when we talk about the super-rich, these are the billionaires and near billionaires in my book - people who have everything they could ever have wanted, a luxury lifestyle so exclusive we can only guess at it and very substantial cash lying around on top. The problem with taxing these people is in their very wealth - which they can move and manipulate globally such that they never pay full rate even for the poorer - and if they dont do all they can to avoid tax then they must be idiots.

So we are then left with a tax base that excludes the super rich and must derive from the rich at the upper end - and these and the next two levels down are the people who own businesses and employ people, whilst the super rich employ no one except their broker, banker and a team of accountants and lawyers.

E



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