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RE: Obedience - 4/1/2006 10:29:20 AM   
kyraofMists


Posts: 3292
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kisshou
Now of course we are all wondering krya if you are just making conversation or if something happened lately that has made you worry about the trust you have in your Owner. Alot of people here says trust gets easier over time but I don't think that is true because the things that test that trust get bigger and bigger and harder and harder.

well wishes to you and your sister

kisshou


LOL  After I posted these questions, I realized that people might wonder that.  I am just making conversation because of thoughts that other posts generated in my head.  Life with my Lord and alandra has never been better.  I have not been as active on the boards the last week or so, due to a mini-vacation to Niagara Falls with my Lord and then getting a cold.  I am working on my answers to my questions to post later, but I just wanted other people's thoughts as well.

Thank you.

Knight's kyra

_____________________________

"Passion... it lies in all of us. Sleeping, waiting, and though unbidden, it will stir, open its jaws, and howl. It speaks to us, guides us... passion rules us all. And we obey..." ~Angelus

(in reply to kisshou)
Profile   Post #: 21
RE: Obedience - 4/1/2006 2:21:13 PM   
kyraofMists


Posts: 3292
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline 		For me, obedience is simply following instructions or orders.  Blind obedience is obedience without thought or consideration of the consequences of obeying.  The contrast for me is thoughtful obedience; it considers the intent of the order and the consequences of obeying.  There are many times in my relationship where I just blindly obey and many other times where I am thoughtfully obedient.

Often blind obedience has a negative connotation, but there are certain acts where blind obedience is highly appropriate and others where thoughtful obedience is appropriate.  If I am instructed to go get him a mocha, I don’t think about it, I don’t consider his intent, I just blindly obey.  There are instances where blind obedience is not appropriate.  Just recently I was instructed to get him a list of hotels to choose from.  If I blindly obeyed, I would have given him a list without consideration of his intent or desires.  However, I had to think about his preferences and create a list that reflected them – thoughtful obedience. 

As for when it is appropriate to be obedient or to not be obedient, I don’t believe the answer to that is as black and white as it is “always” appropriate to be obedient and “never” appropriate to not be obedient.  These two words create an absolute that I think is just setting people up for failure.  I believe there are shades of grey and in my relationship I am required to use my critical thinking skills to determine the appropriate behavior.

A simple example is my Lord instructs me to paint the deck tomorrow.  When tomorrow comes, it rains all day long.  He is unavailable to discuss any change in instructions, do I waste his money and paint a deck that the rain is just going to ruin or do I not obey the instruction?  In my Lord’s house, the appropriate choice in this instance is not to be obedient to this command.  It can be argued that in not obeying this instruction, that I am being thoughtfully obedient to him in other ways because I know his opinion on wasting resources.     

There are also instances where one instruction may contradict another and he is not available to discuss it and a decision has to be made.  I have to consider his intent and which instruction has a higher priority.  Lucky’s example in another thread of being told to sit outside a café and not say anything.  Then seeing that someone is about to be harmed but speaking up may prevent it.  This example would create a contradiction in instructions in my life.  My Lord’s code is “Do my will, but harm none”.  If disobeying the instruction to not say anything will prevent someone from being harmed, then I better choose to disobey that instruction and that is the appropriate choice.   

In my opinion, blind obedience, thoughtful obedience and thoughtful disobedience are necessary in a healthy relationship for me and the appropriate choice must be made for any given situation.     

Knight's kyra

_____________________________

"Passion... it lies in all of us. Sleeping, waiting, and though unbidden, it will stir, open its jaws, and howl. It speaks to us, guides us... passion rules us all. And we obey..." ~Angelus

(in reply to kyraofMists)
Profile   Post #: 22
RE: Obedience - 4/1/2006 2:39:03 PM   
Sunshine119


Posts: 611
Joined: 8/8/2005
Status: offline 		Hmmmmm.....

Obedience=doing what I'm told without question.
Blind Obedience=doing what I'm told without question-in the dark!


_____________________________


Life is not measured by the number of breaths we take, but by the moments that take our breath away.

(in reply to kyraofMists)
Profile   Post #: 23
RE: Obedience - 4/1/2006 3:12:39 PM   
KnightofMists


Posts: 7149
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kisshou
Alot of people here says trust gets easier over time but I don't think that is true because the things that test that trust get bigger and bigger and harder and harder.


I see it as neither being easier or harder to build and then maintain the trust that exists in a relationship over the course of time.  However, as we invest more into a relationship.. the consequences of failed trust grow...  Sometimes what people see is not the efforts to maintain the trust and build it, but the fear of failed trust and the consequences.

_____________________________

Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

(in reply to kisshou)
Profile   Post #: 24
RE: Obedience - 4/1/2006 3:26:12 PM   
sophia37


Posts: 1433
Joined: 2/7/2006
Status: offline 		I looked up the word obedient. It said, Submissive, subservient, respectful, well trained, docile, deferential, dutiful..

"Blind Obedience" wasn't in there. But I think that's a term based in faith. Its almost a godly idea really. To do, and to hope that by doing, it leads you somewhere down the path, but its not on the road to destruction.

(in reply to kyraofMists)
Profile   Post #: 25
RE: Obedience - 4/1/2006 3:52:33 PM   
MrThorns


Posts: 919
Joined: 6/4/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kyraofMists

In the context of authority structure relationships, what is obedience?  What distinguishes it from the term blind obedience?  When is it appropriate to be obedient and when is it appropriate to not be obedient?

Knight’s kyra


Obedience, to me, is simple.  Do what I have instructed you to do.  I see no distinction between obedience and blind obedience.  Either you obey or you do not.

As for the appropriateness of obedience and disobedience... this is a very, very grey area.  I expect my slave to obey...always.  She has enough common sense to know when to obey and when not to obey...(fortunately)  She also knows that there is a risk when being disobedient. 

I like to use the phrase, "Do what you can afford to do, girl.".  Now this is a good rule of thumb for many of those grey areas.  If I tell her to heel and walk on my left.... and she suddenly tackles me.... she has been disobedient.  Before I get all pissy about it, I will try to figure out just why the hell this woman knocked me on my ass.  Perhaps a car just ran a red light and was about to run me down....was she disobedient?  Yep.  But... she knows that I have no desire to be crushed and horribly maimed and/or killed..so she did what she felt she could afford to do.

Hope that makes sense...I've had a long week and am onto my third glass of wine...

~Thorns

_____________________________

~"Do you know what the chain of command is? Its the chain I beat ya with when ya don't follow my command."

"My inner child is a mean little fucker"

(in reply to kyraofMists)
Profile   Post #: 26
RE: Obedience - 4/2/2006 7:24:11 PM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline 		Thorns- can you tell me where you got your quote from?  It's really close to a line spoken by Jayne on the Train Job on Firefly that goes "Do you know what the chain of command is?  It's the chain I go and beat you with until you know who's in ruttin command."

Would be cool to know if there's another source for such good lines.


_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to MrThorns)
Profile   Post #: 27
RE: Obedience - 4/2/2006 7:59:48 PM   
Cloudz


Posts: 836
Joined: 9/13/2005
Status: offline 		Thorns,
Beautifully said.

< Message edited by Cloudz -- 4/2/2006 8:00:22 PM >

_____________________________

Enjoy the Journey,
~Cloudz

"Life isn't about how to survive the storm, but how to dance in the rain."


(in reply to MrThorns)
Profile   Post #: 28
RE: Obedience - 4/2/2006 9:46:20 PM   
masochistecstacy


Posts: 41
Joined: 2/20/2005
Status: offline 		I would consider obedience to be the simple act of obeying. Guess I'm not too indepth there, a lot has already been said on the matter. As for blind obedience, I would define that myself as obeying without any thought to anything other than obeying, without considering the consequences of obeying versus disobeying, why you are obeying, and the like.

When it comes to the question of when it is appropriate to obey or disobey, it all depends on those giving the command and those receiving the command. For myself, whether or not it's appropriate to disobey depends on how serious my Love and I are being at the time. During play, disobedience is entirely inappropriate. But at another time, say when we were shopping, having dinner, just enjoying each other's company, no play involved, it may or may not be appropriate to disobey when He tells me to....  eat my dinner, try that shirt on, etc. For another couple, it could be and most likely is, an entirely different story.

_____________________________


(in reply to Cloudz)
Profile   Post #: 29
RE: Obedience - 4/3/2006 10:23:54 AM   
Padriag


Posts: 2633
Joined: 3/30/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kyraofMists

In the context of authority structure relationships, what is obedience?  What distinguishes it from the term blind obedience?  When is it appropriate to be obedient and when is it appropriate to not be obedient?

Knight’s kyra

What is obedience... same thing it is anywhere else, this lifestyle doesn't have any special meaning for it... its doing what you are instructed to do... period.

The only thing that really distinguishes blind obedience from obedience is whether or not the person questions whether to obey or not before actually doing so.  But in either case, to call it obedience the individual must have obeyed... whether they considered what they were doing or its consequences or not.

Asking when it is appropriate to obey or disobey is asking a value question.  So reduce it to just that... what do you value most?  Regardless of whether you obey or disobey their will be consequences to your actions... perhaps positive, perhaps negative, and more likely both.  If you were asked to jump off a cliff then you have to consider the consequences... you might lose your life if you do, or you might be punished if you don't.  Perhaps you might lose your life if you don't (maybe the dom instructed you to do so in order to escape some danger worse than jumping off a cliff... maybe there's a safety net just out of view... how far do you want to take this hypethetical nonsense?).   I see questions arrise about obedience that ask, "what if you were asked to do something extreme."  Quick poll... how many have actually ever been asked to jump off a cliff, rob a bank or murder someone by their dom?  I'm guessing we aren't going to see many hands go up.  But most questions of obedience are far more mundane... do you scrub the bathroom with a toothbrush or not?  Do you take out the garbage because the dom said so even though you're tired and want to get in a hot bath or do you disobey?  And in most cases there really isn't any case to be made for disobeying.  Regardless of whether you obey or disobey, there will be consequences to your actions.  If you obey you might be rewarded, if you disobey you might be punished.  If obeying meant doing something illegal and you obey you might please the dominant and be punished by society... which do you value you more?

So really, whether to obey or not really comes down to a value choice... what do you value most?  The question of when is it appropriate is entirely subjective to the individual.

_____________________________

Padriag

A stern discipline pervades all nature, which is a little cruel so that it may be very kind - Edmund Spencer

(in reply to kyraofMists)
Profile   Post #: 30
RE: Obedience - 4/3/2006 10:30:18 AM   
trainable14Domme


Posts: 3
Joined: 11/30/2004
Status: offline 		This is why TRUST means so much in a D/s situation. i will always obey if i trust She will not harm me.

(in reply to Padriag)
Profile   Post #: 31
RE: Obedience - 4/3/2006 10:31:59 AM   
IronBear


Posts: 9008
Joined: 6/19/2005
From: Beenleigh, Qld, Australia
Status: offline 		To put another spin on this and one which may well bring a firestorm about my head..


"I am Master, and she is slave, I am Owner, and she is owned,

I am to be pleased, and she is to please,

Why is this?

Because I am Master, and she is slave,"

 
(Text altered from original in order to form a mirror version. Original from Explorers of Gor, pg 178)

_____________________________

Iron Bear

Master of Bruin Cottage

http://www.bruincottage.org

Your attitude, words & actions are yours. Take responsibility for them and the consequences they incur.

D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F.

(in reply to Padriag)
Profile   Post #: 32
RE: Obedience - 4/3/2006 10:43:19 AM   
cariad


Posts: 943
Joined: 9/25/2004
From: Calgary, Alberta
Status: offline 		girl once was asked why she does what she is told without questioning her former Master, and her answer was this: "girl does as she is told without questioning because she trusts Master will not put her in harms way, nor will He allow her to do so of her own will because she would then be damaging Masters property."

while girl did have questions she asked for free time, where she was allowed to speak her mind freely yet respectfully and anything she said was not punishable. Those were the rules set down by Him and girl at the start of the relationship because she was not used to being allowed to ask questions and when He asked if she had any the first time He told her to do something, her answer was "no Master, girl has no questions."  (That is blind obedience to girl, doing something and not asking questions that is.)

when is it ok to not be obedient, oh my goddess if girl were to not obey at any time unless she was not well or she had information He did not she would get the cruelest of punishments for failing to obey His command.

girl has recently been punished by her new Sir because she was bratty two nights in a row and technically she is not to be on the computer but because she was upset and needed to vent, she knows He will be understanding of this.

girl was told by Sir to behave lastnight while He was away for a few hours, and while W/we don't yet live together, girl promised she would be as good as an angel......well girl lived up to being as good as the devil and got punished for sticking her tongue out at a Dom online and not answering Sir at first.

Sir took girl by the hand and told her to lay across the bench, which she did, and she was lucky enough that because Sir had already pretty much blistered her butt the night before to only get 12 swats, and grounded from the computer unless she was writing in her journal, or checking emails and talking with Him.......rest assured though when He finds out girl was on the computer and posting to the board she will get more punishment, but like the good slave she is, girl will take the punishment without whining, snivelling, crying, trying to twist it to her advantage nor will she try to get out of it.

Blessed Be


_____________________________

The Path To Being A Good slave Takes Hard Work, A Willingness To Learn, Ability To Take Criticism and the Ability To Take Punishments Well. i Am Still Learning So Please Be Patient With me, As i Walk the Path to Being A good slave. SLRN: 742 958 000

(in reply to IronBear)
Profile   Post #: 33
RE: Obedience - 4/3/2006 2:58:22 PM   
thetammyjo


Posts: 6322
Joined: 9/8/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kyraofMists

In the context of authority structure relationships, what is obedience? What distinguishes it from the term blind obedience? When is it appropriate to be obedient and when is it appropriate to not be obedient?

Knight’s kyra


I also think there's a difference other than harm or potential harm.

Blind obedience might not know how to do the following:

"Get me a dessert" if there were more than one type of the house. I could see this causing a great deal of confusion and frustration over what to get because I see the add-on "blind" meaning without thinking.

But you can be obedient and think through options, heck, I think you can be very obedient and offer choices or ask for further information. Its better to ask that to make an error afterall.

Honestly though I find attitude and motivation to be more important than the question of obedience.

Someone could be obedient but not submissive and not interested in the other person at all. Obedience could be a result of fear or just being unable to think for yourself. You can be obedient with a frown or a scrowl -- is that an attitude the person giving the order wants?

_____________________________

Love, Peace, Hugs, Kisses, Whips & Chains,

TammyJo

Check out my website at http://www.thetammyjo.com Or www.tammyjoeckhart.com

And my LJ where I post fiction in progress if you "friend" me at http://thetammyjo.livejournal.com/

(in reply to kyraofMists)
Profile   Post #: 34
RE: Obedience - 4/3/2006 6:21:51 PM   
Cloudz


Posts: 836
Joined: 9/13/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: IronBear

Notice to slaves joining House Iron Bear on Obedience:

Obedience training is part of the training every slave will undergo in my home whilst still in a House Collar.. Over time you will learn that I will never command you to do anything which will place you in danger except in emergencies and the command you will obey is the lesser of two evils with the greatest chance of survival. If I order you to jump, you only have two questions allowed, “How high?” and “Which way?” Your instinctive obedience will develop as we grow in trust and understanding of each other. AS you progress you will find that I generally don’t give many orders or commands as such, but I let it be known what I want done and by when. You will also learn such things as to anticipate when I need coffees and when I need teas. In this way when I do issue an order it is important and may save you or someone’s life or limb. You should remember that during the course of my career, I have body guarded many VIP’s in “Hot Zones” it by my team and clients obeying instantly that they still live…. This is what I require from you. Not blind obedience but immediate obedience based on respect, trust and faith in my judgment. If you can not develop that, we have no place being together and you need a less strict Master. I do expect that sometimes you will want top question why to some commands.. This is natural and healthy. Perhaps I will give you the answer you seek or perhaps I will simply say “It was my will,,,” in which case I expect you to figure things out and come to me with the answer you have found. I never do anything with out a reason. As a slave in either my House Collar or in my Personal Collar, I am under no obligation to explain my reasoning or actions but often I will do so in order that you understand.


Ah Bear,
Truly it is a lucky lady who gets to follow your rule. <Kisses>

_____________________________

Enjoy the Journey,
~Cloudz

"Life isn't about how to survive the storm, but how to dance in the rain."


(in reply to IronBear)
Profile   Post #: 35
RE: Obedience - 4/3/2006 7:33:09 PM   
IronBear


Posts: 9008
Joined: 6/19/2005
From: Beenleigh, Qld, Australia
Status: offline 		Thank you sweetheart... <<Huge bear hug>>

_____________________________

Iron Bear

Master of Bruin Cottage

http://www.bruincottage.org

Your attitude, words & actions are yours. Take responsibility for them and the consequences they incur.

D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F.

(in reply to Cloudz)
Profile   Post #: 36
RE: Obedience - 4/3/2006 7:50:21 PM   
buffiyum


Posts: 119
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: kyraofMists

In the context of authority structure relationships, what is obedience? What distinguishes it from the term blind obedience? When is it appropriate to be obedient and when is it appropriate to not be obedient?

Knight’s kyra


*troubled*... one use to feel that obedience was easy, because it seemed to be that way. one need to please, to serve and to obey after all!  But since one has come to understand (first hand actually) that there are Some out there who use the Lifestyle for abusive and even illegal reasons, one has change her mind on this.
Obedience to simple things that Anyone asks of buffy such as 'girl get Me a drink or whatever', those kinds of things one can be obediente to, until one is collared and then all that is up to the Owner and the issue is therefore a 'moot point' for her.
Other things well..... for many things one will be obediente only to the One she is collared to and she know now,  Not to accepte the Collar before she get to know a One very very well and over time, thus ensuring that both of Uus share the same value and belief system.
In that way, she will  not do those things which she know in her heart are things she should not be doing, for Ones she should not be obeying.
And how to Not obey Everyone, when one is taught to do that very thing and one is not owned? buffy has a very good submissive friend who helped her with that, because it has been an issue in the past (quite a bit unfortunately) for buffy.
her advice was this:  As much as possible, buffy is not to go into places or situations where the possibility of her having to say the word 'no' will come up, unless and until she is able to use that word. When she does end up in bad situations, she is to give herself 'permission' to leave, in order to keep safe the property of the Future Owner.
Its a starting point anyways and as starting points go, not a bad idea.
respectfully
buffy

(in reply to thetammyjo)
Profile   Post #: 37
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