RE: Women's Rights!

RE: Women's Rights! (Full Version)

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xBullx -> RE: Women's Rights! (3/19/2010 7:01:31 AM)
I understand and actually agree tazzy, in fact it seems ridiculous to me that the state has to ensure manly or womanly responsibilities. I believe social legislation tends to facilitate ineptitude and in some ways actually premotes irresponsibility. But I am working on the part before the baby comes to be. quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl morning Master Bull perhaps we are looking at part of this from the wrong angle. once the child is born, the child becomes protected under the law and is entitled to support from both parents. the child didnt ask to be here, and he or she is truly the only unwilling participant to the whole affair. someone has to support the kid. the state (and federal) laws insist that both parents will. if the child is on welfare, then the parent who does not have physical custody pays the state. i have often wondered why, with the advent of so much medical advances, why medicine has not found a better form of birth control for men than the condom.

xBullx -> RE: Women's Rights! (3/19/2010 7:06:15 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: xBullx quote: ORIGINAL: Moonhead My own feeling is that women are entitled to more of a say about this as they're the ones who get their health and their figure wrecked carrying the kid for nine months. While that may be true it falls flat in the face of logical reasoning.... Lady Liberty is after all..........................blind. quote: Moonhead: Not really. It isn't like the mother can walk out on a pregnancy as soon as she misses her period, is it? A lot of guys do. (edited for quotery) But do we address with more liberty robbing legislation or get off our collective asses and teach a greater degree of moral (not religious) responsibility. I hate a government rule or program that relieves men or women from putting forth their own effort and quite possibly excuses them for inappropriate and irresponsible action. reedited for quotery

BoiJen -> RE: Women's Rights! (3/19/2010 7:06:42 AM)
Justice is blind...Lady liberty has a torch to light the way (for others and Herself). I struggle with the implications on the potential father (father's rights issues) as much as desire to keep the advancements in women's health (mental/emotional and physical). It's a fine fuckin line doncha think? I also think those that comment most on these issues have never had an abortion themselves (fully guilty here) and have only had to deal with the feelings around it as a secondary individual or observer...which has a vast impact on the individuals who may actually need this medical service at some point in their lives. boi P.S. Anti-choicers (no longer "pro-lifers") saying "I had ids and never would have had an abortion" don't count because the process never crosses their minds as a valid option for dealing with an unwanted or unhealthy pregnancy. Anti-choicers who have had to seriously consider the possibility do count as they have situationally had to weight the options. Pro-choicers count because, I assume, they have considered the possibility in a real way (hypothetically or actually) without dismissing it as a "never gonna happen" kinda thing.

xBullx -> RE: Women's Rights! (3/19/2010 7:16:48 AM)
Dammit I'm always trying to gag and blindfold all you girlies....[:D] quote: ORIGINAL: BoiJen Justice is blind...Lady liberty has a torch to light the way (for others and Herself). I struggle with the implications on the potential father (father's rights issues) as much as desire to keep the advancements in women's health (mental/emotional and physical). It's a fine fuckin line doncha think? I also think those that comment most on these issues have never had an abortion themselves (fully guilty here) and have only had to deal with the feelings around it as a secondary individual or observer...which has a vast impact on the individuals who may actually need this medical service at some point in their lives. boi P.S. Anti-choicers (no longer "pro-lifers") saying "I had ids and never would have had an abortion" don't count because the process never crosses their minds as a valid option for dealing with an unwanted or unhealthy pregnancy. Anti-choicers who have had to seriously consider the possibility do count as they have situationally had to weight the options. Pro-choicers count because, I assume, they have considered the possibility in a real way (hypothetically or actually) without dismissing it as a "never gonna happen" kinda thing. As far as being close to the abortion issue I have not had one obviously, but I have dealt with the emotional results for a woman that is very, very close to me and while I'm no expert on things, I sure have a reasonable understanding of parts of parts. The human factor when allowed to show itself is an overpowering condition and often within the law is not consider as it should be. It seems like we try to compose our laws to often enough discourage the existance of the human animal we are. I better be careful mikey will think he's back in the Gorean forum, all this talk of natural conditions and all.[:D]

Moonhead -> RE: Women's Rights! (3/19/2010 7:19:01 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: xBullx But do we address with more liberty robbing legislation or get off our collective asses and teach a greater degree of moral (not religious) responsibility. I hate a government rule or program that relieves men or women from putting forth their own effort and quite possibly excuses them for inappropriate and irresponsible action. At the risk of sounding overly harsh, Bull, I get the impression from a lot of the comments in this thread that people who see religious and moral authority as the same are a big part of the problem. Kudos for recognising that those are two separate things. I'd question the second part though. As I said before, it's very easy for somebody to get dragged into the poverty trap by an unwanted child. People might well stand a better chance of making something of themselves if that's prevented from happening in the first place, rather than expecting them to turn their life around afterwards. The irresponsible thing only really occurs in this case if somebody's screwing around like a rabbit on E and taking no precautions. Sadly, as has already been pointed out, no form of contraception is completely effective. Falling pregnant isn't necessarily proof that somebody's irresponsible. (I do, definitely, agree that men should be expected to take a lot more responsibility in these cases, though. You're completely right about that much.)

kittinSol -> RE: Women's Rights! (3/19/2010 7:39:02 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: xBull I hate a government rule or program that relieves men or women from putting forth their own effort and quite possibly excuses them for inappropriate and irresponsible action. Terminating an unwanted pregnancy and choosing to not bring an other unwanted human being into the world is exercising appropriate and responsible action and taking one's responsibilities seriously. It seems to me that staying passively and unhappily pregnant is irresponsible.

eyesopened -> RE: Women's Rights! (3/19/2010 7:42:21 AM)
I am pro-choice. Not for the reasons a woman should be able to say what happens to her body, but mainly because I love children. I love children so much that I hate seeing what happens to those poor unwanted babies. I hate seeing children negelcted. Their brains cooked to soup because the parent 'forgot' they were in a hot car while they were nodding out from herion. That a mother sells her 5 year old for sex to get her next fix. A father throws his 8-month-old against the wall to get it to stop crying. I hate hate hate what happens to these babies! A much more humane thing to suck out a mass of cells than to torture babies after they are born. Most, probably all, "pro-life" groups could give 2 farts in the wind what happens after the cord is cut. They shuffle that problem off to law enforcement and a overly worked child welfare system. Foster care is inadequate at best, or abusive at worst. Celebrities adopt kids from Africa or China and don't spend one moment thinking about the forgotten children in the US. The other reason I am pro-choice is that a pregnant woman has become a target for murder. This is the biggest reason why the decision should be in the hands of the women, not the men. Men do not get murdered because they are going to be a father in anywhere near the numbers women are murdered for being pregnant. Murder is the leading cause of death among pregnant women. This is a medical fact. So a woman walking into an abortion clinic may just be doing so out of fear for her life. This would, in my opinion, make the procedure 'medically necessary' as we just don't have enough safeguards in place (like a restraining order really will keep a killer away?) to protect women. Just on this board we were discussing a 12 year old who killed his step-mom-to-be. He didn't want to kill her before the birth of the baby was apparent to him. Until we have an effective way to deal with these social sicknesses, I believe abortion needs to remain a legal and safe option.

Elisabella -> RE: Women's Rights! (3/19/2010 7:50:16 AM)
quote: Murder is the leading cause of death among pregnant women. This is a medical fact. Oh God not this tired old statistic again. First of all, no it's not. The leading cause of death among pregnant women is complications due to pregnancy. Murder comes in third, behind pregnancy complications and automobile accidents. And second of all, you really have to look at it in context - the leading cause of death in women between the ages of 14-45ish, within a 9 month span of their lives, when they're making sure to be extra concerned about their health, and when they're otherwise healthy enough to conceive...it would be either murder, auto accidents, or suicide, which coincidentally comes in fourth. Though you really have to love that this article is titled "Homicide One of Leading Causes of Injury Related Death Among Pregnant Women" even though it comes in third. http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/20316.php

eyesopened -> RE: Women's Rights! (3/19/2010 7:55:32 AM)
Okay. Then murder isn't an issue. Thanks. I'm gonna forget about it then. Everything is sunny and bright. Thank you again for enlightening me.

Elisabella -> RE: Women's Rights! (3/19/2010 8:05:56 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: eyesopened Okay. Then murder isn't an issue. Thanks. I'm gonna forget about it then. Everything is sunny and bright. Thank you again for enlightening me. Are you seriously going to get snarky because your incorrect statistic was challenged?

willbeurdaddy -> RE: Women's Rights! (3/19/2010 8:10:47 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Elisabella quote: ORIGINAL: eyesopened Okay. Then murder isn't an issue. Thanks. I'm gonna forget about it then. Everything is sunny and bright. Thank you again for enlightening me. Are you seriously going to get snarky because your incorrect statistic was challenged? Of course. I guess your 1604 posts werent on this board. Snark is de rigeur.

SultryItalian -> RE: Women's Rights! (3/19/2010 8:10:53 AM)
This! quote: ORIGINAL: kittinSol Terminating an unwanted pregnancy and choosing to not bring an other unwanted human being into the world is exercising appropriate and responsible action and taking one's responsibilities seriously. It seems to me that staying passively and unhappily pregnant is irresponsible. And this! quote: ORIGINAL: eyesopened I am pro-choice. Not for the reasons a woman should be able to say what happens to her body, but mainly because I love children. I love children so much that I hate seeing what happens to those poor unwanted babies. I hate seeing children negelcted. Their brains cooked to soup because the parent 'forgot' they were in a hot car while they were nodding out from herion. That a mother sells her 5 year old for sex to get her next fix. A father throws his 8-month-old against the wall to get it to stop crying. I hate hate hate what happens to these babies! A much more humane thing to suck out a mass of cells than to torture babies after they are born. Most, probably all, "pro-life" groups could give 2 farts in the wind what happens after the cord is cut. They shuffle that problem off to law enforcement and a overly worked child welfare system. Foster care is inadequate at best, or abusive at worst. Celebrities adopt kids from Africa or China and don't spend one moment thinking about the forgotten children in the US. The other reason I am pro-choice is that a pregnant woman has become a target for murder. This is the biggest reason why the decision should be in the hands of the women, not the men. Men do not get murdered because they are going to be a father in anywhere near the numbers women are murdered for being pregnant. Murder is the leading cause of death among pregnant women. This is a medical fact. So a woman walking into an abortion clinic may just be doing so out of fear for her life. This would, in my opinion, make the procedure 'medically necessary' as we just don't have enough safeguards in place (like a restraining order really will keep a killer away?) to protect women. Just on this board we were discussing a 12 year old who killed his step-mom-to-be. He didn't want to kill her before the birth of the baby was apparent to him. Until we have an effective way to deal with these social sicknesses, I believe abortion needs to remain a legal and safe option. Thank you ladies!

xBullx -> RE: Women's Rights! (3/19/2010 8:11:13 AM)
I understand your stance here. I only stated I hate legislation for or against. It's your personal choice, hence liberty should be yours, not the state or feds. quote: ORIGINAL: kittinSol quote: ORIGINAL: xBull I hate a government rule or program that relieves men or women from putting forth their own effort and quite possibly excuses them for inappropriate and irresponsible action. Terminating an unwanted pregnancy and choosing to not bring an other unwanted human being into the world is exercising appropriate and responsible action and taking one's responsibilities seriously. It seems to me that staying passively and unhappily pregnant is irresponsible.

willbeurdaddy -> RE: Women's Rights! (3/19/2010 8:12:00 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SultryItalian This! quote: ORIGINAL: kittinSol Terminating an unwanted pregnancy and choosing to not bring an other unwanted human being into the world is exercising appropriate and responsible action and taking one's responsibilities seriously. It seems to me that staying passively and unhappily pregnant is irresponsible. And this! quote: ORIGINAL: eyesopened I am pro-choice. Not for the reasons a woman should be able to say what happens to her body, but mainly because I love children. I love children so much that I hate seeing what happens to those poor unwanted babies. I hate seeing children negelcted. Their brains cooked to soup because the parent 'forgot' they were in a hot car while they were nodding out from herion. That a mother sells her 5 year old for sex to get her next fix. A father throws his 8-month-old against the wall to get it to stop crying. I hate hate hate what happens to these babies! A much more humane thing to suck out a mass of cells than to torture babies after they are born. Most, probably all, "pro-life" groups could give 2 farts in the wind what happens after the cord is cut. They shuffle that problem off to law enforcement and a overly worked child welfare system. Foster care is inadequate at best, or abusive at worst. Celebrities adopt kids from Africa or China and don't spend one moment thinking about the forgotten children in the US. The other reason I am pro-choice is that a pregnant woman has become a target for murder. This is the biggest reason why the decision should be in the hands of the women, not the men. Men do not get murdered because they are going to be a father in anywhere near the numbers women are murdered for being pregnant. Murder is the leading cause of death among pregnant women. This is a medical fact. So a woman walking into an abortion clinic may just be doing so out of fear for her life. This would, in my opinion, make the procedure 'medically necessary' as we just don't have enough safeguards in place (like a restraining order really will keep a killer away?) to protect women. Just on this board we were discussing a 12 year old who killed his step-mom-to-be. He didn't want to kill her before the birth of the baby was apparent to him. Until we have an effective way to deal with these social sicknesses, I believe abortion needs to remain a legal and safe option. Thank you ladies! It pays to read the whole thread so you dont wind up agreeing with facts that are complete bullshit.

eyesopened -> RE: Women's Rights! (3/19/2010 8:14:08 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Elisabella quote: ORIGINAL: eyesopened Okay. Then murder isn't an issue. Thanks. I'm gonna forget about it then. Everything is sunny and bright. Thank you again for enlightening me. Are you seriously going to get snarky because your incorrect statistic was challenged? I'm not being snarky. I will not post on the subject again.

xBullx -> RE: Women's Rights! (3/19/2010 8:16:51 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: eyesopened quote: ORIGINAL: Elisabella quote: ORIGINAL: eyesopened Okay. Then murder isn't an issue. Thanks. I'm gonna forget about it then. Everything is sunny and bright. Thank you again for enlightening me. Are you seriously going to get snarky because your incorrect statistic was challenged? I'm not being snarky. I will not post on the subject again. Come 'ere, I feel compelled to spank your ass.

SultryItalian -> RE: Women's Rights! (3/19/2010 8:17:07 AM)
Thanks, but I did take the past hour to read all 17 pages of this thread.

Lucylastic -> RE: Women's Rights! (3/19/2010 8:17:59 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: eyesopened I'm not being snarky. I will not post on the subject again. Kudos lady:)

Elisabella -> RE: Women's Rights! (3/19/2010 8:18:29 AM)
quote: This would, in my opinion, make the procedure 'medically necessary' as we just don't have enough safeguards in place (like a restraining order really will keep a killer away?) to protect women. I forgot to address this earlier - it wouldn't make the procedure medically necessary any more than saying "my husband will kill me if I don't get breast implants" would make those a medical necessity that should be covered by insurance.

willbeurdaddy -> RE: Women's Rights! (3/19/2010 8:18:50 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SultryItalian Thanks, but I did take the past hour to read all 17 pages of this thread. Then you apparently didnt understand that the statistic you so loudly supported is totally wrong.

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