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ORIGINAL: came4U

On that subject and women's rights, Emily Murphy (and 4 other women, known as "the Famous Five.") fought to have women considered 'persons' under the law (The British North America Act, or BNA Act, of 1867) which at that time denied women access to the vote, ability to run for office nor serve as a civil elected official.

If these women didn't stand up to the system (to win even the vote in 1918) as well as the ability to enter the Parliamentary service, who knows how long it would have continued that Canadian women were 'non-persons-under the law'.

but, on that subject in reference to abortion, when will anyone (if ever) give the same dignity and rights to a fetus and name it a 'person' since conception?

Abortions (in too many cases) are given because of frivolous activities which require one to think that it is more of a bigger social issue than a health. People don't become pregnant by sitting on park benches minding their business. So how can anyone turn something so intimate, so gosh-darn important and dramatic (the sex act itself) into something so non-chalant or traumatic as abortion? The consequences sometimes are easier to rid of and takes less effort and energy maybe than forethought, in that case. If that is an individuals 'practice' or philosophy, they might want to look into better decision making skills to prevent such 'trauma' in the future.

Should the state pay? People had to vote for that, majority rules. Does it imply that women have more rights or more 'liability' for their own bodies? no. It simply means that others are giving you a means to 'remove' your problem asap, with or without discussion as to preventive accessability.

Abortion isn't a right. It is the inalienable solution from an obvious irresponsible act. If that helps someone sleep better nights to think of it as a 'right', bless em. Some even believe that butterscotch pancakes can float. Doesn't mean I am going to wander IHOP to IHOP seeking to find the magic floatin' pancake.

The ability to be educated into making wise, bodily function decisions is a right, given by the state. Some just forget to do their homework and should be carrying around crib notes for a lifetime. (maybe even write it on their hand, like Sarah Palin).

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Abortions (in too many cases) are given because of frivolous activities

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The ability to be educated into making wise, bodily function decisions is a right, given by the state.

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Beyond wondering where these woman who see abortion as "non-chalant"(by the way is that actually two words ,with a hyphen?)or for that matter ,and of more immediate concern...where are the woman who see sex as a "frivolous" act(need to find me some of them thar woman)I'm just going to sit back and monitor the responses.

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ORIGINAL: kittinSol

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ORIGINAL: Elisabella

Yes it would make a difference to me - one is a medical necessity the other is a mental health and/or social issue.

That's the biggest hole in your argument. An unwanted pregnancy carries all kinds of mental anguish. Mental health is a health issue. If a healthy woman is transformed into an incubator for a fetus she does not want to carry to term, she may well go fucking bonkers and need years of therapy, or worse.

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ORIGINAL: Moonhead

A desire to have the underclass breed like vermin in order to drive down the minimum wage and provide lots of poorly educated peasants to call up in the event of a draft? Stranger things have happened.

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ORIGINAL: Elisabella

You know, this is something I really have an issue with. If a man has no desire to pay child support, the courts tell him he has no choice in the matter, that he chose to have sex, that he knew sex could result in pregnancy, and that he has to accept the consequences of his actions by supporting the child he helped to create.

Good luck saying the exact same thing about a woman.

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ORIGINAL: kittinSol

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ORIGINAL: Elisabella

Yes it would make a difference to me - one is a medical necessity the other is a mental health and/or social issue.

That's the biggest hole in your argument. An unwanted pregnancy carries all kinds of mental anguish. Mental health is a health issue. If a healthy woman is transformed into an incubator for a fetus she does not want to carry to term, she may well go fucking bonkers and need years of therapy, or worse.

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ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika

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ORIGINAL: Moonhead

A desire to have the underclass breed like vermin in order to drive down the minimum wage and provide lots of poorly educated peasants to call up in the event of a draft? Stranger things have happened.

Oh gosh!! Don't even go there! I try to avoid conspiracy theories like the plague though that one seems to creep up on me and haunt me at times. I shudder to think of breeding military pawns... or anything similar to the Huxley's epsilon?

- LA

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ORIGINAL: Lucienne

I'd take this a step further and say that forcing a woman to carry a pregnancy to term is injurious to her whether or not she needs therapy over it.

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ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika

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Beyond wondering where these woman who see abortion as "non-chalant"(by the way is that actually two words ,with a hyphen?)or for that matter ,and of more immediate concern...where are the woman who see sex as a "frivolous" act(need to find me some of them thar woman)I'm just going to sit back and monitor the responses.

Nonchalant is one word. It is a French word ;-)

You also have to realise that just because a woman might be very promiscuous and to use your words see sex as a frivolous act, doesn't mean she sees abortion as nonchalant.

Most women who I know that are empowered through their active sex life practice very safe sex. The "who I know" part is important because the women who I know who are sexually active with multiple partners are well educated about their bodies and sex and have the necessary resources to help them make the right choices.

The issues that arise are when women have very little sexual education and are sexually active, perhaps so out of necessity or out of pressure to be, are the ones that are going to make bad decisions.

And often who has access to resources and education, those who have the money.

Is anyone else seeing a pattern here?

- LA

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ORIGINAL: slvemike4u
Other than pointing out that those weren't my words....but rather words borrowed from came4u's earlier post.....I have no issue with anything else contained in your post

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Apologies then mike. I've sort of been ignoring her posts because I know my responses wouldn't have been pretty ;-)

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Abortions (in too many cases) are given because of frivolous activities which require one to think that it is more of a bigger social issue than a health. People don't become pregnant by sitting on park benches minding their business. So how can anyone turn something so intimate, so gosh-darn important and dramatic (the sex act itself) into something so non-chalant or traumatic as abortion?

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1. You are using the fight that women had to be considered "persons" as a way to take away their status as persons. Once you decide that a fetus has more rights that the female carrying it, you take away that woman's right to choose. So you would use the women's rights movement to take away those rights and to turn women into nothing more than a flower pot.

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Abortions (in too many cases) are given because of frivolous activities

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And HERE we have the heffalump in the room. You have decided that there are those deserving and undeserving. Who gets to choose? You? Why? Again, this erodes rights.

Now, I cannot get too irritated with you. This has been an ongoing issue since the conception of social welfare. The deserving and undeserving poor.

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ORIGINAL: came4U

Aylee, What does being frivolous with a pussy and/or irresponsible have to do with income?

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Woah... your approach to sexuality is very, very repressed. It's interesting. Why do you judge sexual enjoyment so negatively? (I realise many of us do it, but none that I have seen to such an outspoken extent as you, and none with such a vociferous amount of female on female dislike?) Were you raised to attach morality to sex like that, and to think of your pussy, and of sex by extention, as 'frivolous' and 'irresponsible', or is it a condition you developed later in life?

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Most women who I know that are empowered through their active sex life practice very safe sex. The "who I know" part is important because the women who I know who are sexually active with multiple partners are well educated about their bodies and sex and have the necessary resources to help them make the right choices.

The issues that arise are when women have very little sexual education and are sexually active, perhaps so out of necessity or out of pressure to be, are the ones that are going to make bad decisions.

And often who has access to resources and education, those who have the money.

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ORIGINAL: came4U

No, before that fight, women under the law were non-persons. Don't know how you see it backwards.

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me:

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Abortions (in too many cases) are given because of frivolous activities

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And HERE we have the heffalump in the room. You have decided that there are those deserving and undeserving. Who gets to choose? You? Why? Again, this erodes rights.

Now, I cannot get too irritated with you. This has been an ongoing issue since the conception of social welfare. The deserving and undeserving poor.

Aylee, What does being frivolous with a pussy and/or irresponsible have to do with income? Abortion has been a debate since ...time. I am not even discussing incomes in that entire statement. Where is income coming into the equation here?? Was it the word frivolous (as in a self-indulgent conduct)? or just more assumations that I imply that only the poor line up for abortions?

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And if you grant personhood status to a fetus and give it more rights than the female carrying it, what does that do to the rights of the woman? If you take away the right to carry to term or not, what other rights will you take away to protect the "personhood rights" of the fetus?

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My point is that you have decided that some are deserving of a medical procedure and some are not. Some are deserving of choices and some are not.

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You are willing to take away the rights of females and their choices about their own bodies because you have judged their actions as "undeserving." Just as social welfare services were denied to the "undeserving poor."

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ORIGINAL: came4U
Does it happen that most might be poorer? Likely, and unfortunately, yes.

http://www.abortionno.org/Resources/fastfacts.html

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Who's having abortions (income)?
Women with family incomes less than $15,000 obtain 28.7% of all abortions; Women with family incomes between $15,000 and $29,999 obtain 19.5%; Women with family incomes between $30,000 and $59,999 obtain 38.0%; Women with family incomes over $60,000 obtain 13.8%.

Why women have abortions
1% of all abortions occur because of rape or incest; 6% of abortions occur because of potential health problems regarding either the mother or child, and 93% of all abortions occur for social reasons (i.e. the child is unwanted or inconvenient).

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Well, by my math, over 50% of reported abortions are for the middle class and above. (51.8%)

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Who's having abortions (income)?
Women with family incomes less than $15,000 obtain 28.7% of all abortions; Women with family incomes between $15,000 and $29,999 obtain 19.5%; Women with family incomes between $30,000 and $59,999 obtain 38.0%; Women with family incomes over $60,000 obtain 13.8%.

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ORIGINAL: came4U

personhood as my example or any example was given to be EQUAL with men in that case. In this case, the same value. The fetus should be of EQUAL status as a person (at time of conception).

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I don't know where you got that from. I answered someone pages ago that I don't believe ANYONE should have the proceedure. aka I don't believe in abortion under ANY circumstances.

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Have I said I am taking away rights? What someone does because they were irresponsible is their decision. The only time I touched on the subject of legality is when the discussion came up and I said it is law because 'majority rules'. I made no further comments about the legalities.

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Nor have I mentioned income, poverty etc, until you brought it up (previouis page). So you are grasping and unless you can quote me on the subject, don't put words into my mouth.