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RE: My Question... if its so CRITICAL to pass it NOW... - 3/19/2010 8:01:06 AM   
Musicmystery


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quote:

Why is this healthcare law not going into effect for four year and in some cases six???


Obviously, it's to give the industry time to change and to comply with new regulations. Additionally, programs don't administer themselves. This will need to be assembled.

Would you be happier if it happened effective Monday?

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RE: My Question... if its so CRITICAL to pass it NOW... - 3/19/2010 8:06:03 AM   
Musicmystery


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BeingChewsie

Quick reply:

This will give hospitals and other medical service providers four years to shed off enough jobs to try to stay in business and remain profitable. You can't expect to tell an entire industry to do more with "less", pay more in fees and taxes with "less", and not expect their hired guns (consultants and MBA's) to point out that variable costs must be cut...that means labor...employees...people. It won't be physicians, since they generate income, it will be nurses, and other ancillary personnel going bye-bye, more middle class jobs, gone. The one sector actually hiring people, health care, is about to do a turn-around when this bill passes. When that train comes to a grinding halt it is going to impact the rest of the very fragile economy in not so positive ways. I know a lot of households that have only been able to survive right now or hold onto homes because one spouse was working in the health care industry.


What bullshit.

People still need medical care, and the same people that pay for it now will pay for it next year and the year after that and the year after that. The insurance industry will be making the main adjustments, and their trade off is more people entering the pool, people less likely to make claims at that.

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RE: My Question... if its so CRITICAL to pass it NOW... - 3/19/2010 8:06:10 AM   
willbeurdaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

quote:

Why is this healthcare law not going into effect for four year and in some cases six???


Obviously, it's to give the industry time to change and to comply with new regulations. Additionally, programs don't administer themselves. This will need to be assembled.

Would you be happier if it happened effective Monday?


That would make sense if the main provisions were delayed 2 years, not 4. The reasons are to push it past the next election, to make CBO scoring more difficult and to offset 6 years of costs with 10 years of revenues.

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RE: My Question... if its so CRITICAL to pass it NOW... - 3/19/2010 8:07:11 AM   
Musicmystery


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It wouldn't surprise me.

I'd support moving it up to two years. Let's start a campaign.


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RE: My Question... if its so CRITICAL to pass it NOW... - 3/19/2010 8:18:20 AM   
came4U


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I do know I can't wait to read the bill.

I checked, the Canadian Health Care Bills went through on trial basis beginning in 1946, for Saskatchewan. Later other provinces adapted their own policies.

I wished the US would do the same and do trials (maybe 4 states first) to get the system working, etc. I hopeeee it is not introduced to try to go nationwide, quickly.

Yet, I do fear doctor shortages (family doctor), longer waits and early ID malfuntions (unless you can use the existing medicare card issues), which I doubt. On a positive note, I would hope to see more neighborhood clincs to take the weight and pressure off of the larger hospitals.

Does anyone know when the bill is availabe to the public??

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RE: My Question... if its so CRITICAL to pass it NOW... - 3/19/2010 8:21:22 AM   
willbeurdaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: came4U

I do know I can't wait to read the bill.

I checked, the Canadian Health Care Bills went through on trial basis beginning in 1946, for Saskatchewan. Later other provinces adapted their own policies.

I wished the US would do the same and do trials (maybe 4 states first) to get the system working, etc. I hopeeee it is not introduced to try to go nationwide, quickly.

Yet, I do fear doctor shortages (family doctor), longer waits and early ID malfuntions (unless you can use the existing medicare card issues), which I doubt. On a positive note, I would hope to see more neighborhood clincs to take the weight and pressure off of the larger hospitals.

Does anyone know when the bill is availabe to the public??


The disaster in MA isnt enough of a trial?

Clinics....what a novel idea. Too bad its not an integral (in fact primary) part of the bill, because thats all you need to actually insure the uninsured.

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RE: My Question... if its so CRITICAL to pass it NOW... - 3/19/2010 8:24:24 AM   
BeingChewsie


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It is not bullshit. Medicare is being cut, new fees and taxes are being levied against medical service providers in this bill. Their bean counters (MBA's) will most certainly tell them that in order to cut costs (like they had to in the early 90's when HMO's came in) that they will need to cut labor costs, merge departments, increase patients loads etc. That will lead to lay-offs in the health care industry. Just what we didn't need was another industry shedding jobs. Call it bullshit all you want, I'll still keep my money on the bill causing job losses in health care as companies find ways to keep profit up in the face of lower reimbursements and higher fees and taxes.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery


quote:

ORIGINAL: BeingChewsie

Quick reply:

This will give hospitals and other medical service providers four years to shed off enough jobs to try to stay in business and remain profitable. You can't expect to tell an entire industry to do more with "less", pay more in fees and taxes with "less", and not expect their hired guns (consultants and MBA's) to point out that variable costs must be cut...that means labor...employees...people. It won't be physicians, since they generate income, it will be nurses, and other ancillary personnel going bye-bye, more middle class jobs, gone. The one sector actually hiring people, health care, is about to do a turn-around when this bill passes. When that train comes to a grinding halt it is going to impact the rest of the very fragile economy in not so positive ways. I know a lot of households that have only been able to survive right now or hold onto homes because one spouse was working in the health care industry.


What bullshit.

People still need medical care, and the same people that pay for it now will pay for it next year and the year after that and the year after that. The insurance industry will be making the main adjustments, and their trade off is more people entering the pool, people less likely to make claims at that.


_____________________________

"In fact, it is my contention that most women are accepting of way less than optimal circumstance constantly, and are lucky to be 'snagged' by the right man, if ever. But it is more by happy accident than by their design. "
~Ron and Hup

(in reply to Musicmystery)
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RE: My Question... if its so CRITICAL to pass it NOW... - 3/19/2010 8:37:04 AM   
came4U


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quote:

The disaster in MA isnt enough of a trial?
quote:


ooo can you tell me about that please??

Yes, there are clinics almost on every other block here. This wait line at hospitals though, I have yet to witness or be in that situation, even on a Sunday so I guess I was just lucky.

I have only used clinics for emergencies when the family docs office is closed, many have to though because there is a family doc shortage.

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RE: My Question... if its so CRITICAL to pass it NOW... - 3/19/2010 8:41:18 AM   
willbeurdaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: came4U

quote:

The disaster in MA isnt enough of a trial?
quote:


ooo can you tell me about that please??

Yes, there are clinics almost on every other block here. This wait line at hospitals though, I have yet to witness or be in that situation, even on a Sunday so I guess I was just lucky.

I have only used clinics for emergencies when the family docs office is closed, many have to though because there is a family doc shortage.


Since ER usage, one of the "problems" that was supposed to be solved by universal coverage, is up 7% and ER costs are up 17%, yes, I guess you were lucky. And if you dont know about the dire finances that the Ma health care system is facing then you arent reading.

And i was being serious about clinics, if you misread it as sarcasm.

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RE: My Question... if its so CRITICAL to pass it NOW... - 3/19/2010 8:42:02 AM   
Musicmystery


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quote:

That will lead to lay-offs in the health care industry.


Add to the previous points that we have a shortage of labor in the health care industry.

Not exactly a recipe for layoffs, is it...

http://www.sdnn.com/sandiego/2009-12-09/health-fitness/shortage-of-health-care-workers-a-growing-concern
http://www.healthcarefinancenews.com/news/new-senate-bill-tackle-us-nursing-shortage
http://www.visalaw.com/h02oct/10oct02.html

< Message edited by Musicmystery -- 3/19/2010 8:44:47 AM >

(in reply to BeingChewsie)
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RE: My Question... if its so CRITICAL to pass it NOW... - 3/19/2010 8:43:39 AM   
came4U


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From: London, Ontario
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quote:

Since ER usage, one of the "problems" that was supposed to be solved by universal coverage, is up 7% and ER costs are up 17%, yes, I guess you were lucky. And if you dont know about the dire finances that the Ma health care system is facing then you arent reading.

And i was being serious about clinics, if you misread it as sarcasm.


Yes, I know you were serious, lol so was I. They take a ton of pressure off of the system itself..and thanky for the statistics. I will try to look it up for greater details, sounds interesting.

and yeah, I am behind in my upkeep of keeping track of this situation. Me bad, been man-hunting too much *kicks herself

< Message edited by came4U -- 3/19/2010 8:44:20 AM >


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RE: My Question... if its so CRITICAL to pass it NOW... - 3/19/2010 8:44:09 AM   
willbeurdaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

quote:

That will lead to lay-offs in the health care industry.


Add to the previous points that we have a shortage of labor in the health care industry.

Not exactly a recipe for layoffs, is it...

http://www.sdnn.com/sandiego/2009-12-09/health-fitness/shortage-of-health-care-workers-a-growing-concern


Actually it is, but you dont apparently want to think any deeper than surface level.

(in reply to Musicmystery)
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RE: My Question... if its so CRITICAL to pass it NOW... - 3/19/2010 8:45:40 AM   
Musicmystery


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Yeah, that's it. Good catch, Nostradamus.

Good thing we don't have the people to lay off. Saves a lot of paperwork.

Maybe if you try it in Latin quatrains...




< Message edited by Musicmystery -- 3/19/2010 8:46:48 AM >

(in reply to willbeurdaddy)
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RE: My Question... if its so CRITICAL to pass it NOW... - 3/19/2010 9:14:09 AM   
BeingChewsie


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First of all as an RN and advanced practice nurse I can tell you there is currently no "nursing shortage". Even nurses are facing layoffs, for example in CA. All these new grads they have been pumping out can't find jobs. I teach nursing to nursing students, there is no shortage in most areas anymore. Nurses are working shorter staffed than ever before, patients loads have increased not decreased as the economy has taken a dive. Hospitals are *not* filling open positions and are making their staff work short. If you think this is going to be relieved under the new bill when facilities will be making even less and paying out more in taxes and fees you are seriously delusional. They will simply make the staff they have left after shedding(who are terrified of losing their jobs) work harder. You obviously believe that businesses will just keep all those employees(expenses) and even add more employees (expenses) all while making less and less income and having more of what they do make taken away in fees and taxes...I'm not sure what theory of economics that follows but to each their own.




quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

quote:

That will lead to lay-offs in the health care industry.


Add to the previous points that we have a shortage of labor in the health care industry.

Not exactly a recipe for layoffs, is it...

http://www.sdnn.com/sandiego/2009-12-09/health-fitness/shortage-of-health-care-workers-a-growing-concern
http://www.healthcarefinancenews.com/news/new-senate-bill-tackle-us-nursing-shortage
http://www.visalaw.com/h02oct/10oct02.html


< Message edited by BeingChewsie -- 3/19/2010 9:17:22 AM >


_____________________________

"In fact, it is my contention that most women are accepting of way less than optimal circumstance constantly, and are lucky to be 'snagged' by the right man, if ever. But it is more by happy accident than by their design. "
~Ron and Hup

(in reply to Musicmystery)
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RE: My Question... if its so CRITICAL to pass it NOW... - 3/19/2010 9:20:54 AM   
Musicmystery


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quote:

there is currently no "nursing shortage"
quote:

Nurses are working shorter staffed than ever before, patients loads have increased

Seems short based on this.

quote:

Hospitals are *not* filling open positions and are making their staff work short.

This is true everywhere right now, not just nursing. Different factors at work.

As the recovery begins to extend to jobs later this year, these situations will begin to improve.

What gets lost in the passion of this rhetoric is indeed economic essentials. Complain as they might, at a certain point, business (and hospitals) have to hire, whether they wish to or not, as volume increases.

Now, if you can convince me that fewer people will be seeking medical care, I'm ready to listen to your case for that. But that doesn't seem likely for a few decades at least.





< Message edited by Musicmystery -- 3/19/2010 9:24:23 AM >

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RE: My Question... if its so CRITICAL to pass it NOW... - 3/19/2010 9:25:33 AM   
willbeurdaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Yeah, that's it. Good catch, Nostradamus.

Good thing we don't have the people to lay off. Saves a lot of paperwork.

Maybe if you try it in Latin quatrains...





Maybe if you try thinking in terms of labor supply and demand AFTER the bill takes effect you might have a clue.

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RE: My Question... if its so CRITICAL to pass it NOW... - 3/19/2010 9:28:05 AM   
Musicmystery


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See post above yours.

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RE: My Question... if its so CRITICAL to pass it NOW... - 3/19/2010 9:29:47 AM   
tazzygirl


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On July 2, 2009, the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics (BLS) reported that the healthcare sector of the economy is continuing to grow, despite significant job losses in nearly all major industries. Hospitals, long-term care facilities, and other ambulatory care settings added 21,000 new jobs in June 2009, a month when 467,000 jobs were eliminated across the country. As the largest segment of the healthcare workforce, RNs likely will be recruited to fill many of these new positions. In September 2009, the BLS confirmed that 544,000 jobs have been added in the healthcare sector since the recession began.

In the November 26, 2008 Journal of the American Medical Association, workforce analyst
Dr. Peter Buerhaus stated: “Over the next 20 years, the average age of the RN will increase and the size of the workforce will plateau as large numbers of RNs retire. Because demand for RNs is expected to increase during this time, a large and prolonged shortage of nurses is expected to hit the US in the latter half of the next decade.”

Nursing school enrollment is not growing fast enough to meet the projected demand for RNs.

Though AACN reported a 2.2% enrollment increase in entry-level baccalaureate programs in nursing in 2008, this increase is not sufficient to meet the projected demand for nurses. HRSA officials state that “to meet the projected growth in demand for RN services, the U.S. must graduate approximately 90 percent more nurses from US nursing programs.”

According to the latest The National Sample Survey of Registered Nurses, the total RN population has increased at every 4-year interval in which the survey has been taken since 1980. Although the total RN population increased from 2,696,540 in 2000 to 2,909,357 in 2004, this increase (7.9%) was comparatively low considering growth between earlier report intervals (i.e. the RN population grew 14.2% between 1992 and 1996). In 2004, an estimated 83.2% of RNs were employed in nursing.

With the average age of RNs projected to 44.5 years by 2012, nurses in their 50s are expected to become the largest segment of the nursing workforce, accounting for almost one quarter of the RN population. www.jbpub.com/catalog/9780763756840

According to the 2004 National Sample Survey of Registered Nurses released in February 2007 by the federal Division of Nursing, the average age of the RN population in March 2004 was 46.8 years of age, up from 45.2 in 2000. The RN population under the age of 30 dropped from 9.0% of the nursing population in 2000 to 8.0% in 2004.


Just a few tid bits about our profession, Chewsie. One source i could possibly discount, maybe even two. But all these sources are saying the same thing. There are not enough working RNs to take care of the business at hand.

And while schools may be "pumping" out students, you must also look at the passing rates...

The overall average nationwide pass rate for people taking the the NCLEX RN exam for the first time in 2009 was 88.42 percent, according to the NSCBN. The average nationwide pass rate for first time test takers for the NCLEX PN exam was 85.72 percent. For repeat testers educated in the United States, the percentages were 55.87 for RN and 41.4 percent for LPN candidates.

http://www.answerbag.com/q_view/1951816

The source for this information is on a pdf file at the bottom of the answer.

_____________________________

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RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
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Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

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RE: My Question... if its so CRITICAL to pass it NOW... - 3/19/2010 9:33:00 AM   
willbeurdaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

See post above yours.


I saw it. It neither makes sense, nor addresses labor supply and demand after the bill. You give a passing comment on future demand, but health care demand is probably the most inelastic of any product or service. The problem will be on the labor side, which is precisely where this bill will do the most damage.

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RE: My Question... if its so CRITICAL to pass it NOW... - 3/19/2010 9:42:45 AM   
Musicmystery


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Here again is my problem with your claim.

It IS inelastic, second perhaps only to food essentials. So where exactly is this demand going to vanish to? Especially as Baby Boomers age?

Yes, labor can be trimmed, patient loads increased, double shifts required, but only up to a certain point. You're business savvy, and you know as well as I that cost cutting is a short term measure with limited effectiveness. Once those costs are cut, you're left with hiring.

And again, it's no different anywhere right now. Not just businesses--colleges are trimming programs, freezing hiring and so forth. But to pretend they can freeze hiring indefinitely is obviously not the case---at some point, they'll be forced to add Assistant Professors if they want to continue.

The new bill doesn't change that essential. Adjusts the climate, yes. But the structural situation will remain.

< Message edited by Musicmystery -- 3/19/2010 9:43:16 AM >

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