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Personal responsibility - 4/1/2006 8:07:22 AM   
aurora31


Posts: 266
Joined: 8/18/2005
Status: offline 		I hope I can state this in a manner that my point/question is understandable. This is something I have been thinking about alot here lately. When does following a order or does following an order excuse one from taking responsibilitty for their actions? You here many sub/slaves who give themselves permission to do things they other wise would not do becuase thier Dom/Master ordered it.

I would never jump of a bridge or commit a crime becuase  I was ordered to do so. But what if I was ordered to do something I considered to taboo or gross? I hear many sub/slaves state that they do not feel bad or guilty about doing such things becuase they were obeying orders...they put the responsibility for their actions on the Dom/Master. I have a hard time grasping this concept. After all I am still the one preforming what ever the activity is how am I less responsible for my actions just becuase I am following orders.

aurora
Profile   Post #: 1
RE: Personal responsibility - 4/1/2006 8:13:34 AM   
TallDarkAndWitty


Posts: 1893
Joined: 6/12/2004
From: Rochester, NY
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: aurora31
I hear many sub/slaves state that they do not feel bad or guilty about doing such things becuase they were obeying orders...they put the responsibility for their actions on the Dom/Master. I have a hard time grasping this concept. After all I am still the one preforming what ever the activity is how am I less responsible for my actions just becuase I am following orders.


We are all responsible for what we do, no matter what our motivations.  That is a pretty simple concept, and one I am fairly certain you have already figured out.  What is your real question?

Taggard


_____________________________

A most rewarding compliment is an insult from the ill-informed.


My slave: Kat (RainaVerene on the other side) and her website: RainaVerene.com

(in reply to aurora31)
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RE: Personal responsibility - 4/1/2006 8:16:43 AM   
ChainedExistence


Posts: 507
Joined: 2/5/2005
Status: offline 		I'm not necessarily abdicating responsibility, but sometimes that feeling of "it's his orders" are what allows me to move past things that might make me afraid, ashamed,  guilty, or insecure, and allow me to do those things which secretly I might really want to do. I also know him well enough that he would never ask me to do anything which truly is morally reprehensible to us,  is a crime of any kind , or would ever jeopardize my ultimate well being. Many things in WIITWD were at some point areas I'd never expected to explore, due to early conditioning over what is "dirty" for instance. His pushing in those areas made it easier for me to enjoy the sensation rather than get all wrapped up in guilt or shame. Yes, I am responsible for what I do..but the D/s dynamic is what allows me to feel that I'm not at times...and that's perfectly fine with me.

(in reply to aurora31)
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RE: Personal responsibility - 4/1/2006 8:22:36 AM   
MadamShy


Posts: 173
Joined: 3/21/2006
Status: offline 		and thats what makes it freedom in slavery

(in reply to ChainedExistence)
Profile   Post #: 4
RE: Personal responsibility - 4/1/2006 8:30:29 AM   
Level


Posts: 25145
Joined: 3/3/2006
Status: offline 		I believe personal responsibility supercedes M/s. And I feel that a master/dominant that would attempt, whether successfully or not, to make a submissive cross the line into wrong behavior not only disgraces themselves, but this lifestyle.

(in reply to MadamShy)
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RE: Personal responsibility - 4/1/2006 9:04:42 AM   
RavenMuse


Posts: 4030
Joined: 1/23/2006
Status: offline 		It all depends what actions you mean.... where it effects other people or breaks the law then certainly. However where it is just something of social conditioning, frankly many people have hang-ups about their sexuality or even about sex itself, such people can be even torn between the social conditioning which says "Relationships HAVE to be 50-50 partnerships" and their own need for control and to submit..... In such cases it most certainly helps them come to terms with resolving that conflict in a healthy manner.

It comes down to 'trust' in the Dom, knowing that whilst he will push your non-hard limits, he won't do anything that is really to your detriment overall (Or to the detriment of another)

I DO expect  compliance.... but also I wouldn't go telling a girl to leap off a bridge or break the law for me!


_____________________________

This above all: to thine own self be true,
And it must follow, as the night the day,
Thou canst not then be false to any man.

Owner of metalmiss

(in reply to aurora31)
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RE: Personal responsibility - 4/1/2006 9:30:23 AM   
Angeni


Posts: 88
Joined: 3/11/2006
Status: offline
quote:

You here many sub/slaves who give themselves permission to do things they other wise would not do becuase thier Dom/Master ordered it.

Greetings Aurora31. Personally, I have never given myself permission to do something because I was 'ordered to'. I have been ASKED to do things that I would not normally have thought of on my own, and then taken the responsibility for the action onto myself. I am an adult, I have no need to place responsibility for my own actions upon someone else, no matter what those actions might be.
 
quote:

  But what if I was ordered to do something I considered to taboo or gross?

This is something that only you can decide on. Limits are in place for reasons. It's up to us ( generally speaking ) to enforce, or expand our own limits.
 
Just my humble opinion

(in reply to aurora31)
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RE: Personal responsibility - 4/1/2006 10:03:58 AM   
LordBennett


Posts: 24
Joined: 5/31/2004
Status: offline 		If you would not do it under any circumstances period, you will not do it just because you are told to do it.  Here is where communication and the Dominant and submissive knowing one another comes into play.  If he knows you thouroughly and knows what you will not do on you own and do not want to do he will not ask you to do it.  But, if he knows you would like to try something however you do not have the nerve to try it on your own, he can prder you to do it because then you could do it and if you dislike it, could tell him so but if you really enjoyed it, would do it again on your own.  I hope my response, combined with the rest, have helped you.

(in reply to Angeni)
Profile   Post #: 8
RE: Personal responsibility - 4/1/2006 10:04:44 AM   
starymists


Posts: 139
Joined: 2/1/2006
Status: offline 		From day one, I was taught personal responsibility was my first concern. For example, it is my responsibility to keep myself safe from harm until such time as I found another who had proven he could keep me safe from harm. Which means I had gotten to know another well enough to know he wasn't going to abuse me, hurt me or leave me in a worse condition than he found me. I also have a responsibility to myself to see that I come to no harm. This would mean that I don't blindly obey orders *nor does my Dominant require me to obey blindly*. If something is making me feel unsafe, I have a responsibility to Him, to me, and to us to bring that to the table for discussion. Beyond that, I have a responsibility to myself to ensure that my Dominant has the skills necessary to play with me in a safe way. That includes having general knowledge of techniques that he wants to use as well as specific knowledge of me that might inpact anything he does. I also have a responsibility to set my limits. My limits are fairly broad...my Dominant can not do anything to cause my death...he can not do anything that would require me to seek medical treatment afterwards *i.e. setting bones, stiching wounds closed, etc*, and he can not ask me to break the law. Permanant body modifications are a soft limit that are discussed before hand, such as piercings, tattoos, brands and the like.
 
Beyond that, I have soft limits that he can push, although we generally talk about those areas before he delves into them. My original trainer in the lifestyle never really allowed me to transfer the weight of responsibility onto another. When he took out the whip, he used no restraints and put me against a mirror...forcing me to watch each blow as it came, forcing me to acknowledge that ~this~ is what I wanted as much as it was my obeying his order not to move. And that has been pretty much true down the line. Sure, I can play the mental games with myself and blame someone else for what I'm enjoying, but deep down, I have to acknowledge, even if it's only to myself that I chose not to end an activity with a safeword. I have to acknowledge that I won't walk away from the relationship even though those taboos are likely to happen again. I can quiet my insecurities and doubts in the knowlege that ~he~ also wants to do those things, but in the end, I have no one to blame but myself :)

(in reply to Angeni)
Profile   Post #: 9
RE: Personal responsibility - 4/1/2006 2:03:38 PM   
KnightofMists


Posts: 7149
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: aurora31

I hope I can state this in a manner that my point/question is understandable. This is something I have been thinking about alot here lately. When does following a order or does following an order excuse one from taking responsibilitty for their actions? You here many sub/slaves who give themselves permission to do things they other wise would not do becuase thier Dom/Master ordered it.

I would never jump of a bridge or commit a crime becuase  I was ordered to do so. But what if I was ordered to do something I considered to taboo or gross? I hear many sub/slaves state that they do not feel bad or guilty about doing such things becuase they were obeying orders...they put the responsibility for their actions on the Dom/Master. I have a hard time grasping this concept. After all I am still the one preforming what ever the activity is how am I less responsible for my actions just becuase I am following orders.

aurora

 
little screamer *G*
I believe what you are looking at here is the question of Obedience to Authority in conjunction with Personal Responsibility for ones actions.
 
It is easy to consider and state that one is personally responsible for ones actions. Our society has countless laws and norms that result in delivering consequences upon us for our actions be they good or bad. However, what few actually admit is that it seems to be human nature to relieve ourselves of this personal responsibility. There is very much a tendency for individuals to be Obedient to Authority. This obedience to authority is so common and intense that people will be obedient to the authority even in conflict to moral principles and personal well-being. Military forces use this tendency in the training of their soldiers to respond to commands that will very much cost them their life. Back in 1961-62 Stanley Milgram from Harvard University performed a study to attempt understand if people have a tendency to obey orders even in conflict to their personal moral values and responsibilities. This study was mostly in response to the growing need to understand did people actually participate and where accomplices in the Holocaust or where they just following orders? The study brought forward incredible results that we has humans have an incredible tendency to obey authority even at the expense of personal responsibility and consequences. This study has been repeated numerous times over 25 years plus in many different countries and it continues to give very consistent results.
 
How does this relate to the lifestyle?
It is important to understand that in applying a D/s structured dynamic in a relation. In essence, establishing a strong Obedience to Authority environment. That the submissive is and will be at a greater risk of relieving them self of personal responsibility for their actions. I believe the very nature of submissive's only increases the risk. As a Master to my girls, I feel it very important to continually stress that my slaves are personally responsibility for their well-being. I will not nor will I ever claim to my girls that it is inappropriate to be disobedient. In fact, in the interests of their Well-being, I find it problematic to attempt to express to my girls that disobedience is wrong. I also suggest that anyone that expresses or drives the idea to their submissive that disobedience is a failure of submission is actually damaging the long-term well-being of their property. We are not prefect! No Dominant is going to be right every time in their instruction to their submissive... when we are wrong... I expect a submissive to be disobedient. However, their is a huge difference between respectful disobedience and forceful disobedience! I believe the strong dominant can appreciate and relish the difference.

_____________________________

Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

(in reply to aurora31)
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RE: Personal responsibility - 4/1/2006 3:57:07 PM   
MrThorns


Posts: 919
Joined: 6/4/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: TallDarkAndWitty

quote:

ORIGINAL: aurora31
I hear many sub/slaves state that they do not feel bad or guilty about doing such things becuase they were obeying orders...they put the responsibility for their actions on the Dom/Master. I have a hard time grasping this concept. After all I am still the one preforming what ever the activity is how am I less responsible for my actions just becuase I am following orders.


We are all responsible for what we do, no matter what our motivations....
Taggard



I think this sums it all up.  You are never free from personal responsibility. (Although there are...unfortunately...several hundred-thousand people who are having a hard time with this concept.)

~Thorns

_____________________________

~"Do you know what the chain of command is? Its the chain I beat ya with when ya don't follow my command."

"My inner child is a mean little fucker"

(in reply to TallDarkAndWitty)
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RE: Personal responsibility - 4/1/2006 4:03:49 PM   
wytchywoman


Posts: 510
Joined: 2/27/2006
From: Southeastern Michigan
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: aurora31

I hope I can state this in a manner that my point/question is understandable. This is something I have been thinking about alot here lately. When does following a order or does following an order excuse one from taking responsibilitty for their actions? You here many sub/slaves who give themselves permission to do things they other wise would not do becuase thier Dom/Master ordered it.

I would never jump of a bridge or commit a crime becuase  I was ordered to do so. But what if I was ordered to do something I considered to taboo or gross? I hear many sub/slaves state that they do not feel bad or guilty about doing such things becuase they were obeying orders...they put the responsibility for their actions on the Dom/Master. I have a hard time grasping this concept. After all I am still the one preforming what ever the activity is how am I less responsible for my actions just becuase I am following orders.

aurora


For me? I would never "break the law" in obeying orders. But I am confident that my owner would never ask me to do that. He has his own ethics, and he has always ranted about any "owner" who would ask a sub/slave to break the law. Now, that is where common sense comes into this lifestyle.

No matter how many of us would like to think we obey all "orders", not many of us would actually break the law by claiming our Dom/Domme/Master/Owner told us it was their orders and thereby okay.

Most of us know where to draw the line between "obeying" and "morality" as the rest of the world defines it. I would suggest that if anyone tries to tell you to put yourself in a position to break the law and be arrested, then you should run like hell.



< Message edited by wytchywoman -- 4/1/2006 4:06:25 PM >

(in reply to aurora31)
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RE: Personal responsibility - 4/1/2006 4:07:27 PM   
MistressSassy66


Posts: 1675
Joined: 11/5/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: aurora31

I hope I can state this in a manner that my point/question is understandable. This is something I have been thinking about alot here lately. When does following a order or does following an order excuse one from taking responsibilitty for their actions? You here many sub/slaves who give themselves permission to do things they other wise would not do becuase thier Dom/Master ordered it.

I would never jump of a bridge or commit a crime becuase  I was ordered to do so. But what if I was ordered to do something I considered to taboo or gross? I hear many sub/slaves state that they do not feel bad or guilty about doing such things becuase they were obeying orders...they put the responsibility for their actions on the Dom/Master. I have a hard time grasping this concept. After all I am still the one preforming what ever the activity is how am I less responsible for my actions just becuase I am following orders.

aurora





They may be limits you have.
For some its a way to help move past things,for others its finding out you really dont like it.
If your not liking it then tell your Dom.He will help you move past it in either case( He should try,IMO)

_____________________________

Mistress Sassy

http://www.mistresssassy.com

In the Immortal Words of Bob....Fuck the dumb shit.

"I love you not only for what you are,But for what I am when I'm with you."- Opening line from a poem by Roy Croft

(in reply to aurora31)
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RE: Personal responsibility - 4/1/2006 4:23:13 PM   
krikket


Posts: 1183
Joined: 11/17/2004
From: Washington, DC Metro Area
Status: offline 		While i believe in absolute obedience to my Master, i do not believe in blind obedience to anyone -- master or not.  In my mind, absolute obedience carries with it responsibility from both of us, based on intelligence and our own personal moral code.  At the same time, blind obedience, is an excuse to not take responsibility for our own actions, to blame someone else, or just run away from a problem.  Since i believe that i owe my Master all that i am, and that includes intelligence and a sense of responsibility, to do otherwise is selling him short, not to mention (in some cases) downright dangerous. 

When my unmentionables were small i told them that if something "felt" wrong or bad, chances are it was.  i think that same thing applies to my own life, and how i live it. 

So, to sum it up, "i was only following orders" just doesn't cut it -- not in this life(style) or any other...imho..

cheers
jimini

_____________________________

"And the day came when the risk to remain tight in a bud was more painful than the risk it took to bloom."

by A. Nin



When your heart speaks take good notes.





(in reply to KnightofMists)
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RE: Personal responsibility - 4/1/2006 5:06:02 PM   
ivorylace


Posts: 56
Joined: 3/26/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: aurora31

I would never jump of a bridge or commit a crime becuase  I was ordered to do so. But what if I was ordered to do something I considered to taboo or gross? I hear many sub/slaves state that they do not feel bad or guilty about doing such things becuase they were obeying orders...they put the responsibility for their actions on the Dom/Master. I have a hard time grasping this concept. After all I am still the one preforming what ever the activity is how am I less responsible for my actions just becuase I am following orders.

aurora


Part of living life, and having a brain, demands that we be responsible for our own actions.

And to be honest, if a Dom 'commanded' me to do something illegal, He would no longer be in my life. 

Morals first.

~ lace

(in reply to aurora31)
Profile   Post #: 15
RE: Personal responsibility - 4/1/2006 5:07:15 PM   
twicehappy


Posts: 2706
Joined: 2/5/2006
Status: offline
quote:

When does following a order or does following an order excuse one from taking responsibilitty for their actions? You here many sub/slaves who give themselves permission to do things they other wise would not do becuase thier Dom/Master ordered it.


This particular question has been batted around by philosophical bdsm lifestylers forever. Even here in our house (see Phoenix Risen) it has been much discussed.

Much like the OP I would never commit a crime or injure someone simply because my owners ordered me too. Yet I have in the past been trained to perform acts I certainly was not fond of at my then owner’s command.And did perform to my owner's satisfaction.

I certainly think it is possible for a Master or Mistress to order a slave to perform an otherwise unconscionable act.

At this point it seems to be the consensus here it would be the owner’s moral fault ultimately.Due to all control being surrendered to them by the slave.

However it is also the consensus that this is an excellent reason for the slave to be extremely circumspect when deciding whose collar to accept.

Realizing there will be numerous differing opinions I state quite clearly here; this was only our conclusion. I do not think there can be a broad sweeping statement covering all scenarios. Similar questions have been debated in vanilla legal systems for centuries.

_____________________________

Infinite Diversity in Infinite Combinations.

The human heart is not a finite container but an ever expanding universe with all the stars contained there in.

(in reply to aurora31)
Profile   Post #: 16
RE: Personal responsibility - 4/1/2006 6:13:20 PM   
TemptingNviceSub


Posts: 3054
Joined: 10/1/2005
Status: offline 		To the Op...It all comes down to a simple word..CHOICE...you choose to obey or not...reasons notwithstanding....CHOICE..you choose..thus you are responsible....be well...tempting

(in reply to twicehappy)
Profile   Post #: 17
RE: Personal responsibility - 4/1/2006 6:14:18 PM   
willowheart


Posts: 25
Joined: 3/25/2006
From: southern Minnesota
Status: offline 		Absolute obedience vs.  Personal responsibility ?

Reading the above posts I wonder if it would be helpful if people would agree on the definitions of the words:  Tops bottoms, Dominants, submissives, Masters, slaves.  ???
To be honest, One's slave's personal responsibility begins and ends with his or her Master. Period!
     Saying "No" builds walls.
             And any "obedience" done with the attitude of disrespect or sassiness builds walls.
                        So does demanding something that harms the submissive / slave, or their trust.

As D/s and especially M/s W/we are in the business of building bridges.
(T/b ?? -- it's all about "the moment" and Y/your reputation.)
If one doesn't respect and trust the Master to that complete extent, then no "collar" should have been accepted. It may take years to come into this sort of relationship. People throw these words around like it is some sort of role-playing game. It disrespects the profound intimacy of the real deal.
Though I am a submissive to the core of my being, and find it extremely hard to fight back and stand up for myself without a lot of "away time" to talk myself into stating a position of strength,   ( it took me over 45 minutes to psyche myself up just to post this )    I have never denied my fault or blame for whatever. Even to the point of beating myself up for things that were truly out of my control. (Typical for my type of submissive personality)
But I long  for the freedom of being a slave to my Sir. He will earn the title of "Master" just as truly as i will earn His trusted respect as His "slave".

As far as Personal Responsibility goes...  things change.
No mater what the title, care of your own body is vital. For one who is un-collared, this care is about one's self-respect. When collared, however, it is about caring for "His / Her property". Things change, especially points-of-view.
A Top has a tough job, a Dominant even tougher ( but one They pscychologically crave). ah... but a Master! What an awesome Personal Responsibility !!!!
A "bottom" has to function at a different level than a psychological submissive, who may be less capable, innately. In regards to a "slave" -- no matter where she or he falls psychologically -- exercising more Trust and  Personal  Integrity  -- rather than personal Responsibility,  may be the key factor in growing a life-long relationship.
So ----   all the more reason to go slow and take this a bit more seriously, perhaps?
Right now, my Sir requires complete honesty. If something is too "taboo or gross" I tell Him. He pleasantly tolerates my resistance, my questionings, my fears and my doubts. When something new comes up, I will worry sometimes. i may blame myself unmerciously      --- no matter "title" I wear.  It's what i do. But as I grow,  it will happen less and less.
But Honesty  & Integrity  ---  that will always be the way !! 

(in reply to krikket)
Profile   Post #: 18
RE: Personal responsibility - 4/2/2006 1:38:53 AM   
ExistentialSteel


Posts: 676
Joined: 1/18/2005
Status: offline 		Absolutes simplify to a point of inaccuracy. Would I ever tell a sub to break the law? It depends on the law. Everything is relative. Would I ever tell her to do something that she didn’t feel was right? It depends on what it is. Part of the excitement of D/s is getting a sub to break the rules of society. When I get her in a desirous way and make her say she is a slut, cunt or whatever self-humiliating term I want, she is going against the grain of what is proper in her mind, but finding excitement by doing it. I doubt she would call herself a slut unless I made her.

_____________________________

For those who are like Roman Candles leaving bright trails in the night sky while the crowd watches until the dark blue center light bursts into magnificent colors and the crowd goes, ahhhhhhhhhh.

(in reply to aurora31)
Profile   Post #: 19
RE: Personal responsibility - 4/2/2006 5:44:55 AM   
wytchywoman


Posts: 510
Joined: 2/27/2006
From: Southeastern Michigan
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ExistentialSteel

Absolutes simplify to a point of inaccuracy. Would I ever tell a sub to break the law? It depends on the law. Everything is relative. Would I ever tell her to do something that she didn’t feel was right? It depends on what it is. Part of the excitement of D/s is getting a sub to break the rules of society. When I get her in a desirous way and make her say she is a slut, cunt or whatever self-humiliating term I want, she is going against the grain of what is proper in her mind, but finding excitement by doing it. I doubt she would call herself a slut unless I made her.


When I said never would I break "the law" I was not talking about societal mores, I was talking about the kinda crap that could get me arrested, booked, and thrown in jail.

I've never been in that position because my owner is more responsible and more sensible than that, but I do know first hand of a friend who's Domme ordered him to do exactly the kind of thing that could have gotten him arrested, booked, and he would have gone to trial in a U.S court of. law...IF he had obeyed her. Thankfully, he didn't.

(in reply to ExistentialSteel)
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