RE: Navy Seals trial (Full Version)

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VideoAdminZeta -> RE: Navy Seals trial (3/21/2010 5:47:53 PM)

Navy Seals, military vs. civilian laws, freedom of troop operation vs. war crimes treaties.  These are examples of something called "on topic."

"Fuck you, you ugly motherfucker who has no friends," is an example of something called "not on topic."

Let's get back on topic, please.



slvemike4u -> RE: Navy Seals trial (3/21/2010 6:10:34 PM)

Dammit Zeta,there goes all my meterial!
Now in an effort to avoid a gold bordered letter,allow me to ask this question on topic.
Is the Seal in question to be afforded all of the protections he is entitled to under the UCMJ.....allow me to field my own question ....of course he is.
So than what is the problem...he is not being "railroaded" nor being made a "scapegoat" he is being prosecuted for the charges of which he has been charged....he has competent representation and all that...it's called justice,albeit the military version...but justice all the same.



thompsonx -> RE: Navy Seals trial (3/21/2010 6:27:38 PM)

quote:

Oh sheesh Mike!  Go read Starship Troopers, already!

quote:

No thanks,I'm actually quite selective in what I choose to read.....hell if I was going to read bad sci fi I might as well read the Gor books....lol.


Starship troopers is not bad sci fi...it won the Hugo award.  If you want a really good read you might look into Heinlein's work.
His early stuff was written for Boy's Life Magazine but starting with "Stranger in a Strange Land" (another Hugo award winner)they have been written for the adult audience.
I think you would particularly his use of the medium of science fiction to make political commentary.



Aylee -> RE: Navy Seals trial (3/21/2010 6:31:21 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

quote:

Oh sheesh Mike!  Go read Starship Troopers, already!

quote:

No thanks,I'm actually quite selective in what I choose to read.....hell if I was going to read bad sci fi I might as well read the Gor books....lol.


Starship troopers is not bad sci fi...it won the Hugo award.  If you want a really good read you might look into Hinelien's work.
His early stuff was written for Boy's Life Magazine but starting with "Stranger in a Strange Land" (another Hugo award winner)they have been written for the adult audience.
I think you would particularly use of the medium of science fiction to make political commentary.




I figured that he had see that atrocity of a movie based on the same title. 



thompsonx -> RE: Navy Seals trial (3/21/2010 6:34:38 PM)

It was pretty bad...hard to even equate it to the book.  Sometimes hollywood just fails.



thornhappy -> RE: Navy Seals trial (3/21/2010 6:34:55 PM)

Did you miss the trials against Marines that happened back in the Bush administration?  The ones where everyone was killed, but first a 14 year old was raped, murdered, then set on fire?

They weren't the only trials; trials have been held for a variety of service members since about 2004.
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity


Whats antiAmerican are these Democrat witch hunts against our elite forces who are trying to fight a war.

quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

Right  you are Sanity,as long as their is a no good Democrat sitting in the Oval Ofiice reecting everything else you believe in...is well duh a no brainer!
What a fucking American you are [8|]




Aylee -> RE: Navy Seals trial (3/21/2010 6:49:20 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

It was pretty bad...hard to even equate it to the book.  Sometimes hollywood just fails.


Did you know that Paul Verhoeven did not even READ the novel?  No wonder the movie sucked.



slvemike4u -> RE: Navy Seals trial (3/21/2010 7:02:01 PM)

Thompson,so as not to derail....you have mail.
My apologies AdminZeta for the interruption.



JonnieBoy -> RE: Navy Seals trial (3/21/2010 9:50:10 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: housesub4you

Well, it seems the Navy Seals who are being charged for hurting a prisoner are going to have the trail in Iraq.  The injuries where a fat lip and bruises from  allegedly  being pushed down.  The charges have been dropped against all but 1 Seal, and if they are convicted it will be a dishonorable discharge and prison time. 

This story is close to me because I have a relative who is a Navy Seal.  The person who was captured if you are not aware was the master mind behind the 4 contractors who where kidnapped, killed burned and one of the bodies was hung from a bridge and pulled apart.

Things have changed in war, now when units go out, there is an observer who watches and if they feel the US units did anything wrong they can have charges filed against people in the unit.  To bad the same does not apply to the people trying to kill everyone.

and people wonder why no one wants to join the military anymore

http://blog.taragana.com/politics/2010/01/11/judge-moves-military-trial-of-navy-seal-accused-of-mistreating-detainee-to-us-base-in-iraq-12560/




If all they've done is their job ... under orders ... then they're in need of support. War is fuck ugly.... it's about time the "conductors" took responsibility for their "theatre" and acknowloged the "lead actors"

That's all ... fuck off.

Jus' coz you'r 'merkin ... doesn't mean we can't all see what we're looking at ...

Pirate

Pirate



JonnieBoy -> RE: Navy Seals trial (3/21/2010 9:53:48 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

Sometimes hollywood just fails.


If we're talking "fact" ... hollywood ALWAYS fails.

I'm a good butcher ... not many people would enjoy watching me work ...

Pirate



housesub4you -> RE: Navy Seals trial (3/22/2010 6:05:31 AM)

Actually the rules of engagement  where changed during the Bush time because of all the abuses going on, you know the prison thing and others.  So Rice cut a deal with the iraq gov that would not take effect until Bush was out of office, including no longer being able to run night operations on the ground and observers going out with elite troops to make sure no laws are broken (putting every person at risk because the observer is not trained in Seal operations)

you blame Obama, however, 3 out of the 4 people charged had their charges dropped and the forth choose to take the case to court to showcase how political decisions made years ago are putting our troops in harms way.

So you blame Obama, for the 4 being charged, do you give Obama credit for the 3 that had the charges dropped?




truckinslave -> RE: Navy Seals trial (3/22/2010 6:28:36 AM)

quote:

however, 3 out of the 4 people charged had their charges dropped and the forth choose to take the case to court


Thats inaccurate, or perhaps just poorly worded. All four defendants chose not to accept non-judicial punishment. The military dropped charges against three,and decided to court-martial the fourth. Unless you've seen something I haven't (evidence for the prosecution) it's going to be such a short court-martial that it will underscore the political nature of the decision to prosecute (already underscored by a lack of discovery, etc).

It was I who previously alluded to the fact that Obama changed the rules of engagement in Afghanistan.



Moonhead -> RE: Navy Seals trial (3/22/2010 6:40:56 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx
Starship troopers is not bad sci fi...it won the Hugo award.  If you want a really good read you might look into Heinlein's work.
His early stuff was written for Boy's Life Magazine but starting with "Stranger in a Strange Land" (another Hugo award winner)they have been written for the adult audience.
I think you would particularly his use of the medium of science fiction to make political commentary.

It depends who you ask. A lot of SF pundits thought it was very bad sci fi indeed (Brian Aldiss, who unlike Robert Heinlein actually had served in his country's army during the second world war gave it a particularly vicious kicking and Joe Haldeman obviously wasn't a fan). As for the Hugo award, that's been given to an awful lot of terrible nonsense over the years, sadly.

The kiddilit thing you have wrong as well: he started off writing for the adult SF audience in the pulps. He did have a contract to write children's SF novels for one publisher, but he'd published book length SF before that, and Starship Troopers was actually the book that led to his arrangement with the children's publisher ending. (Though I think he published a couple more later.) That one was published about ten years before Stranger In A Strange Land.

Finally, Heinlein's use of SF to make a political commentary was deeply hamfisted and did his SF no favours at all. His best work is his short stories, where he didn't have the space to let a mouthpiece character blather at great and tedious length about how evil taxation is and why people who haven't served in the military shouldn't be allowed to vote.



Elisabella -> RE: Navy Seals trial (3/22/2010 7:07:23 AM)

I thought the movie was cool, but then I read somewhere that the point was to make us feel sympathy for the bugs instead of for the soldiers?

That guy was cute and ten times cuter in uniform.



Aylee -> RE: Navy Seals trial (3/22/2010 7:19:51 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

It depends who you ask. A lot of SF pundits thought it was very bad sci fi indeed (Brian Aldiss, who unlike Robert Heinlein actually had served in his country's army during the second world war gave it a particularly vicious kicking and Joe Haldeman obviously wasn't a fan). As for the Hugo award, that's been given to an awful lot of terrible nonsense over the years, sadly.

For one, there were not a lot of sci fi pundits at the time.  For two, yes they did discharge him from the Navy because he had TB.  Funny how that works.

quote:

The kiddilit thing you have wrong as well: he started off writing for the adult SF audience in the pulps. He did have a contract to write children's SF novels for one publisher, but he'd published book length SF before that,

No, his first published novel was Rocket Ship Galieo.  I think that Time-Line was his first short published. 
quote:

 and Starship Troopers was actually the book that led to his arrangement with the children's publisher ending. (Though I think he published a couple more later.) That one was published about ten years before Stranger In A Strange Land.
There was a two year difference. 
quote:

Finally, Heinlein's use of SF to make a political commentary was deeply hamfisted and did his SF no favours at all.

You have got to be kidding me. 
quote:

His best work is his short stories, where he didn't have the space to let a mouthpiece character blather at great and tedious length about how evil taxation is and why people who haven't served in the military shouldn't be allowed to vote.
Heinlein was an active socialist at one point.  He did not think taxation was evil.  And no where does he posit that you should only vote if you served in the military.  (He does suggest having to solve a quadratic equation before voting in one non-fiction work.) 

And different people disagree on what his best works were. 



thompsonx -> RE: Navy Seals trial (3/22/2010 9:32:41 AM)

I'm a good butcher ... not many people would enjoy watching me work ...

An exellent butcher is called a surgeon...I enjoy watching any journeyman apply their craft.



truckinslave -> RE: Navy Seals trial (3/22/2010 9:37:49 AM)

quote:

And different people disagree on what his best works were.


I vote for Time Enough for Love.



thompsonx -> RE: Navy Seals trial (3/22/2010 9:44:26 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead


quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx
Starship troopers is not bad sci fi...it won the Hugo award.  If you want a really good read you might look into Heinlein's work.
His early stuff was written for Boy's Life Magazine but starting with "Stranger in a Strange Land" (another Hugo award winner)they have been written for the adult audience.
I think you would particularly his use of the medium of science fiction to make political commentary.

It depends who you ask. A lot of SF pundits thought it was very bad sci fi indeed (Brian Aldiss, who unlike Robert Heinlein actually had served in his country's army during the second world war gave it a particularly vicious kicking and Joe Haldeman obviously wasn't a fan).

Heinlein was a graduate of the naval acdemy and served on active duty until he was discharged for having TB.  During WW II he was called back into the navy and did extensive "black ops"  He is a graduate of the War College and has authored numerous papers for the War College.



As for the Hugo award, that's been given to an awful lot of terrible nonsense over the years, sadly.

Really...could you name them and tell us what percentage that would represent out of all that have been awarded and then please compare and contrast that with the pulitzer.

The kiddilit thing you have wrong as well: he started off writing for the adult SF audience in the pulps. He did have a contract to write children's SF novels for one publisher, but he'd published book length SF before that, and Starship Troopers was actually the book that led to his arrangement with the children's publisher ending. (Though I think he published a couple more later.) That one was published about ten years before Stranger In A Strange Land.

Finally, Heinlein's use of SF to make a political commentary was deeply hamfisted and did his SF no favours at all. His best work is his short stories, where he didn't have the space to let a mouthpiece character blather at great and tedious length about how evil taxation is and why people who haven't served in the military shouldn't be allowed to vote.


Your memories of his work differ from mine.  Perhaps you might want to revisit some of his work.



thompsonx -> RE: Navy Seals trial (3/22/2010 9:47:27 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella

I thought the movie was cool, but then I read somewhere that the point was to make us feel sympathy for the bugs instead of for the soldiers?

That guy was cute and ten times cuter in uniform.


In Heinlein's book the bugs were bad and the soldiers good.
In Camerons "Avitar" the soldiers are bad and the blue people are good.



thompsonx -> RE: Navy Seals trial (3/22/2010 9:49:37 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: truckinslave

quote:

And different people disagree on what his best works were.


I vote for Time Enough for Love.


In his fiction I like "Friday" but his last work about his trip to Russia was quite informative.



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