RE: My concerns over pursuing this lifestyle... (Full Version)

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SocratesNot -> RE: My concerns over pursuing this lifestyle... (5/22/2010 5:02:04 PM)

First we need to define essence. I think that essence is composed both of what we DO and what we feel. And what we do can influence what we feel. At the same time, we can choose what to do. By doing so we influence our essence.
IMO an essence of human being is not some set of fixed immutable traits we are given at birth.
All these people who were changing roles did it consciously. What you do consciously is part of your essence. What you do define to a great deal who you are.
History books remember people by their deeds and not by their inner feelings. Also human psyche consist of 3 parts: Ego, Super-ego and Id.
All of them are part of our essence. Ego is our will and consciousness. Super-ego is our moral and ethical values. Id is the home of our basic desires and primal drives.
What you consider to be our essence is only Id. This is true for animals. They are only based on primal drives and desires.

However people also have their will, their consciousness and moral system. This is all part of our essence. And our Ego can take concrete action and decision to modify some parts of our essence. In doing so it will be influenced by various factors which include logic, rationality, utility, ethical values and primal drives and desires.

Generally I think you oversimplify human essence. Human essence is a very complex thing and is not defined only by our primal desires.

Therefore, since these people consciously chose for whatever reasons to do what they do, their very actions influenced and even defined their essence.

We all have various primal desires, many of them are destructive. In every person there is present so called "Death drive" (see about it here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_drive). What makes the difference between serial killer and non-criminal is not the presence or absence of this Death drive, since both of them have it. The things that makes difference is the conscious CHOICE of one to use this tendency to kill people, and of the other to repress it.

We are defined by what we do. This is our essence. Since we have control over what we do as soon as we EXIST as conscious beings with free will, this proves that existence comes before essence.



Jeffff -> RE: My concerns over pursuing this lifestyle... (5/22/2010 5:05:08 PM)

O.o.


~smiles~



Andalusite -> RE: My concerns over pursuing this lifestyle... (5/22/2010 5:13:38 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SocratesNot
We have consciousness and free will and if we choose we can not only act in a way that is opposite to our nature. We can also try to deliberately modify our nature. Some people even succeed in doing so. ...

I think that numerous examples of submissives and even slaves who turn into Doms over time proves that existence indeed precedes essence.

I used to be very shy, and was extremely uncomfortable in large groups of strangers, or doing public speaking. I was able to change that by pushing myself out of my comfort zone, and now I am a social butterfly, and enjoy teaching classes and giving presentations.

I went in the opposite direction. I was a Domme for 5 years, then bottomed occasionally in my next relationship, with a switch. If he hadn't suggested I give it a try, I wouldn't have had any idea that I was masochistic, and it developed fairly slowly. For a long time, even after I thoroughly enjoyed bottoming, I was very opposed to the idea of submitting to anyone, much less being a slave. When I found someone I clicked with, though, I found it was quite effortless. I can't choose to submit to or to dominate anyone, it just depends on how I interact with that specific person. My nature doesn't change, my personality doesn't change significantly, it's just that they push different buttons. I'm an "e) All of the above!" kind of girl.[;)] I can choose whether or not to get into a D/s or M/s relationship with someone, but not whether or not I have those responses toward that person. It would be deceit toward myself and the other person to claim to be someone's submissive if I were just bottoming and obedient.



lally2 -> RE: My concerns over pursuing this lifestyle... (5/22/2010 6:42:54 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SocratesNot

First we need to define essence. I think that essence is composed both of what we DO and what we feel. And what we do can influence what we feel. At the same time, we can choose what to do. By doing so we influence our essence.

We are defined by what we do. This is our essence. Since we have control over what we do as soon as we EXIST as conscious beings with free will, this proves that existence comes before essence.


existentialists tell us that our essence follows our existance.  that essence does not exist before existance and therefore our existance influences our essence.  in other words its only through learning about our environment that we develop our essence and eventually define ourselves.

if a new born baby has never existed within any other environment than the womb how come it already has a personality. if it has never interracted with any human being whatsoever as it floats around in its amniotic sac where has that personality come from. 

the fact is that existentialism came after the second world war and was as a direct result of a loss of faith in many ways of anything resembling faith.  all that existentialism is trying to say ultimately is that there is no spiritual element to life.  that you are born a vaccuous blimp and only from life do you develop an essence of self through experience.  but a baby has no experience of anything at all and yet it arrives with a very strong personality let me assure you!  he ruled me with an iron fist and wore me out the little feck that he was, so cute [:)]

his essence arrived the moment he did it was one package that infact had been fully loaded even whilst still inside me, kicked and wriggled all night he did and arrived a very disgruntled and properly cross little package after 36 hours of being pushed, pulled and eventually forcibly removed with forceps.  to say he was furious is an understatement.



SocratesNot -> RE: My concerns over pursuing this lifestyle... (5/22/2010 7:00:16 PM)

quote:

existentialists tell us that our essence follows our existance.  that essence does not exist before existance and therefore our existance influences our essence.  in other words its only through learning about our environment that we develop our essence and eventually define ourselves.


Exactly! Finally we agree about something!

quote:

the fact is that existentialism came after the second world war and was as a direct result of a loss of faith in many ways of anything resembling faith.  all that existentialism is trying to say ultimately is that there is no spiritual element to life.


However, this is not true. Some existentialists were atheists but many of them were very spiritual.
Even before existentialism was developed as a school of thought it had its very significant predecessors who were very spiritual and extremely influential.
They are two of them actually Soren Kierkegaard and Fyodor Dostoevsky.
Kirkegaard was a Christian and he believed that the only right way of living life was according to Christian faith and principles.

What existentialism actually tries to tell us is not that there is nothing spiritual in life, bur that we ARE RESPONSIBLE  for all that happens in our life and for all the things that we do. We are ultimately even responsible for WHAT WE ARE, because we can consciously influence it.
Alcoholics, criminals, school dropouts, junkies etc, ARE RESPONSIBLE for what they become. Their existence preceded their essence and they chose to become what they are.

It is very hard for many people to accept existentialism because the burden of this responsibility is quite heavy.
I actually think this is the MAIN reason why some people don't want to accept existentialism.



sunshinemiss -> RE: My concerns over pursuing this lifestyle... (5/22/2010 7:09:46 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: naughtysubK

dominate is a verb. Dominant is a noun


Actually "dominant" is an adjective. The "person" is understood and is the noun.

sunshine
grammar goddess



SocratesNot -> RE: My concerns over pursuing this lifestyle... (5/22/2010 9:20:39 PM)

For more info on existentialism, you can visit this forum:
http://www.philosophyforum.com/philosophy-forums/existentialism/

and especially this thread:
http://www.philosophyforum.com/philosophy-forums/existentialism/5557-does-existence-really-precede-essence.html



reynardfox -> RE: My concerns over pursuing this lifestyle... (5/23/2010 1:03:52 AM)

No one who writes those profiles expects anyone other than fellow wankers to respond. Take it with a truckload of salt.
To our American cousins, that comment was made with a sense of irony, and no one actually wants you to consume a trailer load of sodium chloride. (Which would, as you would no doubt point out, be bad for you)



lally2 -> RE: My concerns over pursuing this lifestyle... (5/23/2010 4:04:41 AM)

 

one of the things babies turn up with is a capacity to love and be loved - existance didnt teach them that.  you can argue that a babies love is very selfish, but i think that is love, love is generally a selfish emotion, centered around how *you* feel.  where did they learn this first emotion one of the most complicated ones.  actually for a baby its all about survival and need, where did they learn about survival and need, its instinct, where did that instinct come from, its genetically programmed, where did that programme come from -

i agree that existensialism is asking us to take responsibility for ourselves and our choices.  so where has anyone said that the people here havent.

to try and tie this thread back in without it being a total hijack (probably too late) where do any of our needs come from, with regard to submission for me, i still have no idea, it began when i was far too young to question it.

of course its possible to deny ourselves our needs, especially ones that in this OP are kinda 'out there' in terms of reality and liklihood of realising - but in my case and in the case of the vast majority living happily as a Dominant or a submissive, why would they want to when it fulfills them.

personally i have grown massively, expanded way beyond what i was since i embraced myself fully 'here' - the freedom to express myself emotionally, physically, psychologically has made me stronger, more resourceful and happier - why would i fight against something that is me, this is me.  i take full responsibility for it.



SocratesNot -> RE: My concerns over pursuing this lifestyle... (5/23/2010 5:11:41 AM)

quote:

one of the things babies turn up with is a capacity to love and be loved - existance didnt teach them that.  you can argue that a babies love is very selfish, but i think that is love, love is generally a selfish emotion, centered around how *you* feel.  where did they learn this first emotion one of the most complicated ones.  actually for a baby its all about survival and need, where did they learn about survival and need, its instinct, where did that instinct come from, its genetically programmed, where did that programme come from -


I agree with you here. This is the small part where I also disagree with existentialism, namely I do think that we are given some innate feelings and tendencies such as those that you described. But I still think that our conscious existence, generally, precedes our essence as a conscious adult human being. Baby in your example has essence and existence which came at the same time - at some point in her mothers womb. But, baby is not fully conscious adult being. As soon as her consciousness come into play it will be able to redefine her essence as a human being.
Chronologically I would put it this way. Our existence as self conscious sentient human beings comes around the age of 7. For some kids earlier, for some later. Since that time, their consciousness will redefine their essence, from the essence of kids, towards the essence of grown up, responsible adults.
Our essence never fully emerges. It is redefined every day by our experiences, feelings and deeds.

quote:

i agree that existensialism is asking us to take responsibility for ourselves and our choices.  so where has anyone said that the people here havent.

to try and tie this thread back in without it being a total hijack (probably too late) where do any of our needs come from, with regard to submission for me, i still have no idea, it began when i was far too young to question it.

of course its possible to deny ourselves our needs, especially ones that in this OP are kinda 'out there' in terms of reality and liklihood of realising - but in my case and in the case of the vast majority living happily as a Dominant or a submissive, why would they want to when it fulfills them.

personally i have grown massively, expanded way beyond what i was since i embraced myself fully 'here' - the freedom to express myself emotionally, physically, psychologically has made me stronger, more resourceful and happier - why would i fight against something that is me, this is me.  i take full responsibility for it.


Yes, I agree with this part completely, and yes, it was really sort of hijacked thread. When it comes to OP's question. I would suggest to him to do whatever he thinks is right. When it comes to those people who mention such extreme and sick stuff in their profiles, most of them fo it for the sake of fantasy, but you never know. The best strategy is to never contact them.



Andalusite -> RE: My concerns over pursuing this lifestyle... (5/23/2010 8:30:29 AM)

I don't have kids, but I'd say they become not only sentient and self-aware but able to communicate somewhere between 2 and 3 years old. Of course, they become even more so over time, and some adults have never done much introspection. Anyway, I disagree with the premise of existentialism. We are all made up of a combination of nature and nurture. While we can change our nature to some extent, and control our behaviour even when it goes against our nature, we aren't empty vessels that get filled to our own specifications. Anyway, I don't see how existentialism is particularly linked to D/s or BDSM. I'd venture to say that the vast majority of people did not consciously set out to become dominant or submissive. They heard or read about it somewhere, and decided that it resonated with who they are. As a switch, I get a little annoyed when people claim that D/s roles are always linked to personality. I recognise that they are correlated for some people, but not for others.

I can choose how I feel to some extent, but primarily by switching my focus to something else, or by doing something that has the effect of changing my mood. If someone unconsensually calls me a fat, ugly, worthless bitch, I can decide not to hit him, and can do something afterward to put myself in a better mood, but I'll probably be at least mildly annoyed at the time. I don't think it would be realistic to set a goal of feeling just thrilled when someone did that. If someone called me that during a roleplaying scene, while they were doing yummy things to me, I'd probably respond differently, although I'm generally not much into humiliation play, particularly verbal. I'd know it was part of the scene, and that they didn't actually feel that way, so it would influence how I reacted to the same verbal stimulus.



ResidentSadist -> RE: My concerns over pursuing this lifestyle... (5/24/2010 10:40:06 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterK13
....One instance is a profile where a dominate wanted to castrate the prospective sub the moment he first submitted and another dominate that wanted to make the prospective sub beg for everything even food . . . .


Google up castrada, forced chemical castration, choir boys and etc. Singing coaches, the church, parents and doctors have been and still preform gentile mutilation to this day. How is BDSM castration any worse than the genital mutation of circumcision, forced chemical castration (Poland) or clit removal . . . other than it offends your personal narrow minded view of the world? If you can't open your mind to a little castration or dieting, take your judgmental bullshit and go home. There are extremists in every crowd and no you aren't in Kansas anymore . . . and no, not all those who are extremists are fake.

A little ball chopping and dieting never hurt anyone.



mnottertail -> RE: My concerns over pursuing this lifestyle... (5/24/2010 10:55:30 AM)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7SCt8JPAkgU



Rochsub2009 -> RE: My concerns over pursuing this lifestyle... (5/24/2010 12:39:15 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SocratesNot

Finally we agree about something!



Uh oh!  There must be a giant asteroid heading towards Earth.  Repent, for the end is near!  [:D]



SocratesNot -> RE: My concerns over pursuing this lifestyle... (5/24/2010 1:13:35 PM)

quote:


Google up castrada, forced chemical castration, choir boys and etc. Singing coaches, the church, parents and doctors have been and still preform gentile mutilation to this day. How is BDSM castration any worse than the genital mutation of circumcision, forced chemical castration (Poland) or clit removal . . . other than it offends your personal narrow minded view of the world? If you can't open your mind to a little castration or dieting, take your judgmental bullshit and go home. There are extremists in every crowd and no you aren't in Kansas anymore . . . and no, not all those who are extremists are fake.

A little ball chopping and dieting never hurt anyone.


Sorry dude, but my mind will always be opposed to such concepts, and I don't even want to change it. If I changed my opinion about such things I would start to wonder if I am going nuts.

The only thing that I agree with you is that not all of the extremists are fake! This is very true, but they are still probably psychos and I don't want to have any business with them. The only form of castration that I approve of is in the case of MTF transgendered people, where the castration is a part of gender reassignment surgery.



DarkEmpress2010 -> RE: My concerns over pursuing this lifestyle... (5/24/2010 2:38:11 PM)

Ive encountered several slaves who begged for such things like begging for food eating in dog bowl etc  but I do think alot of that  unsafe stuff is just fantasy talk. Thats why we have safe words, so they can say "oh no Mistress,  no,  stop", and I can keep going  until I hear that safe word. I think its a lot of pretend. For those who REALLY want something unsafe - avoid them.



ResidentSadist -> RE: My concerns over pursuing this lifestyle... (5/24/2010 5:02:19 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SocratesNot

quote:


Google up castrada, forced chemical castration, choir boys and {snip] . . . and no, not all those who are extremists are fake.

A little ball chopping and dieting never hurt anyone.


Sorry dude, but my mind will always be opposed to such concepts, and I don't even want to change it. If I changed my opinion about such things I would start to wonder if I am going nuts.

The only thing that I agree with you is that not all of the extremists are fake! This is very true, but they are still probably psychos and I don't want to have any business with them. The only form of castration that I approve of is in the case of MTF transgendered people, where the castration is a part of gender reassignment surgery.


When a chick scheduled for a mastectomy asks me to flay the skin off her breasts because she is gonna lose them anyway and she wants to go out in a blaze of glory . . . the first thought to pop into my head isn't, “now there is a sane and leveled headed woman”.




subblossom -> RE: My concerns over pursuing this lifestyle... (6/2/2010 2:32:40 PM)

whether or not those profiles are fake or not, the thing to remember is everyone has their own thing. what's important is that you find what you are looking for. don't worry about what other's are looking for. i know i may be extremely new to this, but this is something my Dom and i have talked about.



CallaFirestormBW -> RE: My concerns over pursuing this lifestyle... (6/2/2010 3:11:49 PM)

quote:

It's very common in the leather community for people to start out as slaves. There were a few reasons for doing so and not all of them were specifically related to the idea that they identified as a slave within themselves. Many did it to get an introduction into the lifestyle. Some did it because they believed that in order to develop into a Master, they had to experience what it was like on the other side of the kneel. Some did it because they only felt that they could learn about leather was for them to live it under the direction of someone more experienced.


I can speak directly to this, as it is policy within our household that anyone seeking to take the role as Keeper must begin as a servant. I did my years at the kneel, sought out greater responsibility as it became available, and literally worked my way into the Keeper's role. There were no guarantees. It was entirely possible that, if I -were- going to "change my spots" so to speak, I might have had a happy life as a servant in our household for the remainder of my days... but that WASN'T who I was, at the core... and it wasn't who I'd been my entire life... from the time I stubbornly set out to learn the piano without lessons to when I set out on my own at 15 to make my own way in the world, and on until this very day. Just because I took a POSITION in service did NOT make me a "submissive" individual (something that EB, the House patriarch at the time could attest to *chuckles*). However, doing my best to complete the duties and responsibilities of the role that I had chosen, which I had taken up with the goal of becoming a Keeper, was a matter of personal pride, and failing at that role would have proven to me that I was unsuited to -any- kind of responsibility, especially the responsibility for another human being, since I had not shown myself to be honorable enough to fulfill the commitments I willingly took on. Therefore, my nature as a dominant individual was actually reinforced during my years in service, as failure in that chosen role would have marked me, in my own mind, as irresponsible and less than honorable. Rather than making me more submissive, instead my years of service made me more certainly dominant.

I believe that we -are- what we -are-... while we may embrace ROLES that either hide or display aspects of our personality, taking on those roles does not subsume that personality, and over time, dis-satisfaction with an unfulfilled life can leave one feeling empty and disillusioned until one fully embraces the abandoned aspects of the personality.

Calla



CallaFirestormBW -> RE: My concerns over pursuing this lifestyle... (6/2/2010 3:16:03 PM)

quote:

I don't have kids, but I'd say they become not only sentient and self-aware but able to communicate somewhere between 2 and 3 years old.


While we agree on the issue of existentialism, I'd like to share my experiences with childrens' self-awareness, from having birthed and/or raised 4 of them from infancy.

Our children's personalities were apparent, and they were aware and -very- different from the day that they were born. They had well-defined likes, dislikes, and distinct personality traits that have stayed with them (regardless of how often their stepmothers outside the House tried to end those particular traits).

Communication becomes much easier after babies obtain speech -- but most mothers will tell you that the ability to speak only reinforced the personality aspects they'd already seen in their child.

Calla



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