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RE: Afghanistan poppy fields - 3/22/2010 6:45:10 PM   
BoiJen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella


quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53
Comparing opium to tobacco on health grounds is a red herring.


You're right, opium is only lethal if an overdose is taken, tobacco products are lethal when used as directed.


Actually, the additives are the largest influence on the safety of smoking tobacco.

Just sayin...

boi


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Profile   Post #: 21
RE: Afghanistan poppy fields - 3/22/2010 6:47:19 PM   
Elisabella


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BoiJen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella


quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53
Comparing opium to tobacco on health grounds is a red herring.


You're right, opium is only lethal if an overdose is taken, tobacco products are lethal when used as directed.


Actually, the additives are the largest influence on the safety of smoking tobacco.

Just sayin...

boi



That and the whole smoke-inhalation thing, but I get your point.

(in reply to BoiJen)
Profile   Post #: 22
RE: Afghanistan poppy fields - 3/22/2010 6:49:24 PM   
thompsonx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella


quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx
You know the interesting thing is that all you have to do is look it up in the PDR and then you will know.The fun part is when you come back and call me a fucking smart ass


Unfortunately I don't have a copy of that book but I do have the internet, which gives varying answers but does maintain that there is a lethal dose of heroin.

The LD50 for heroin is generally believed to be around a third of a gram.
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_many_grams_of_pure_heroin_would_it_take_for_a_150_pound_man_to_over_dose
This source is just a joke.
Animal experimentation:
http://www.unodc.org/unodc/en/data-and-analysis/bulletin/bulletin_1965-01-01_1_page006.html
This source deals with how heroin is synthisized into morphine in the brain and concludes that the lethality in rats is approximately 100mg/kg 
Some sources give a figure of between 75 and 375 mg for a 75 kg being fatal for 50% of opiate naive people.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heroin
This article says over and over that most heroin overdoses are caused by something other than heroin.

I've also *seen* people overdose from heroin, as well as overdosed myself,
You look quite well for a dead lady.

so to be honest saying "there is no LD50" does not mean it's impossible to overdose on heroin. It's actually quite easy.
The PDR is available at any public library.

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Profile   Post #: 23
RE: Afghanistan poppy fields - 3/22/2010 6:51:13 PM   
BoiJen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella
That and the whole smoke-inhalation thing, but I get your point.


Very true. That and nicotine in and of it self is not overly damaging, though it is addictive. When applied to the tar and rat poison and piss added to tobacco....well then it's pretty nasty.

boi

PS. I'm all in for fire bombing those damn fields. If we can't smoke out the bad guys, we can sure as hell kill their primary funding source.


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RE: Afghanistan poppy fields - 3/22/2010 6:53:23 PM   
thompsonx


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Status: offline 		PS. I'm all in for fire bombing those damn fields. If we can't smoke out the bad guys, we can sure as hell kill their primary funding source.

Did you not read the article?  It goes into pretty deep detail as to why we don't fire bomb those damn fields.

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Profile   Post #: 25
RE: Afghanistan poppy fields - 3/22/2010 6:54:19 PM   
Slavehandsome


Posts: 382
Joined: 9/19/2004
Status: offline 		Its interesting to note that since the U.S. has occupied Afghanistan, the street price of Heroin here in the U.S. has dropped to lower than cocaine. Gen McChrystal "The stance of the U.S. is to no longer eradicate". LOL

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Profile   Post #: 26
RE: Afghanistan poppy fields - 3/22/2010 7:00:33 PM   
BoiJen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

PS. I'm all in for fire bombing those damn fields. If we can't smoke out the bad guys, we can sure as hell kill their primary funding source.

Did you not read the article?  It goes into pretty deep detail as to why we don't fire bomb those damn fields.


Actually, I did read the article and I stand against the position taken by NATO and the US Military in this instance. Bomb the fields.

War is not a networking opportunity or a friendship circle event.

Allowing the enemy's monetary supply or support for that supply to remain intact is counter productive to "victory". "Victory", in case you didn't know, is traditionally when a war is over.

boi

P.S. The PDR is often written by men who work in a lab all day, not men who work in the medical field all day.


< Message edited by BoiJen -- 3/22/2010 7:01:45 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 27
RE: Afghanistan poppy fields - 3/22/2010 7:12:00 PM   
thompsonx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BoiJen

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

PS. I'm all in for fire bombing those damn fields. If we can't smoke out the bad guys, we can sure as hell kill their primary funding source.

Did you not read the article?  It goes into pretty deep detail as to why we don't fire bomb those damn fields.


Actually, I did read the article and I stand against the position taken by NATO and the US Military in this instance. Bomb the fields.

War is not a networking opportunity or a friendship circle event.

It is nice to know that your knowledge in the field of warfare is superior to all the soldier guys at NATO and the U.S. Army.  Perhaps we should make you chairman of the joint chiefs.
Oh wait tell me once again how long you were in the military and what was the highest rank you held?

Allowing the enemy's monetary supply or support for that supply to remain intact is counter productive to "victory". "Victory", in case you didn't know, is traditionally when a war is over.

boi

P.S. The PDR is often written by men who work in a lab all day, not men who work in the medical field all day.

Gee then who are all those doctor guys listed on the front page as contributing authorities?
They call it the Physicians Desk Reference because it is used by ???????....oh yes doctors.  That would be doctors who are looking in a book written by doctors to tell other doctors what the different drugs are and how they interact with other drugs.

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Profile   Post #: 28
RE: Afghanistan poppy fields - 3/22/2010 7:20:05 PM   
thornhappy


Posts: 8596
Joined: 12/16/2006
Status: offline 		Wouldn't be a whole lot different than the subsidization of tobacco (though I think that's being phased out.)

Now, as to other posters - if you bomb the fields, what else do the farmers grow?  How do they feed their kids?  They need another subsistence crop, or the ability to transport some type of cash crop to market.
quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

quote:

ORIGINAL: thornhappy

What's a suitable replacement crop?  I've heard that it's one of the few that'll grow in relatively poor soil and still generate enough money for the farmer (who is not making the big bucks in all this.) 



I do not believe that there is a suitable crop to replace the poppy.  We should buy it and use it for its intended purpose.  How hard would it be to control the market?  ADM does it with soy beans.

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Profile   Post #: 29
RE: Afghanistan poppy fields - 3/22/2010 7:42:14 PM   
TheHeretic


Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline 		Has it really been 8 1/2 years since US forces stood on the edges of those fields and didn't burn them and poison the soil?  We could have done it then.  We still had the global political capital to spend.  Maybe we should have.

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x603t_ministry-just-one-fix_music

I'm of two minds.  On the one hand, I despise junkies.  I've known a few, up close and personal, and at some point you just have toss the useless fucks overboard.  Sooner is cheaper than later.  Even among people who need opiates for daily pain, I don't much care for the impact of the high on personality.  My observation, and I've caught crap for stating it before, is that the bigger an asshole somebody is when medicated with a high end oxycodone family member, the less they really need to be on that sort of dose.  They tend to disagree.

Then there is the flip side, where it can only be described as criminal malpractice to deny people in extreme pain the most effective medicine to give them some ease. 

At this point, just let it be in Afghanistan.  If it picks the pockets of the Taliban, buy the fucking crop, no matter how "bumper" it gets right up until we leave.  Maybe they'll spend the money on guns to become their own little warlord-ocracies.  What's the shelf life on opiates?  Maybe President Obama can stock up the pharmacies and save a few bucks.

We've gotta get out there.

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Profile   Post #: 30
RE: Afghanistan poppy fields - 3/22/2010 7:49:01 PM   
Elisabella


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quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

You look quite well for a dead lady.



LOL

I'm guessing that means you don't believe me, but I have this really cool memory of waking up pinned beneath an EMT and having no idea where I was.

There's a window between overdose and death that allows emergency services to administer a shot of narcan, I got lucky. So did most of my friends at the time - keyword being "most" but anyway, if you're arguing that it's impossible to overdose on pure heroin I'll just say for your own sake...stay away from it. It's a powerful drug, shouldn't be treated so casually.

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Profile   Post #: 31
RE: Afghanistan poppy fields - 3/22/2010 8:33:48 PM   
cloudboy


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At this point, its not a war, its an occupation / insurgency.

(in reply to BoiJen)
Profile   Post #: 32
RE: Afghanistan poppy fields - 3/22/2010 9:10:42 PM   
BoiJen


Posts: 2608
Joined: 3/7/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy


At this point, its not a war, its an occupation / insurgency.


And that would be the fall, as with many great (maybe not so good but great in size and monetary value) nations.




The first engagement in the new war on terrorism -- with Osama bin Ladin in Afghanistan -- poses severe challenges for the United States. Rooting out bin Ladin's network will require military success in a country that the Soviet Union could not conquer in ten years of trying, as well as support from unstable surrounding nations. Washington may be tempted to try to oust the Taliban regime, but doing so could rekindle Afghanistan's brutal civil war. The United States must proceed with caution -- or end up on the ash heap of Afghan history.

http://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/57411/milton-bearden/afghanistan-graveyard-of-empires




This is not the first time, nor will it be the last time, that the Afghanistan people and their horrible little country with its civil war and terrorist hide out policies will ruin a nation. Unfortunately, it will be our nation.

The best thing to do would be leave or set the bitch on fire. It's an "un-win-able" situation or someone else would have won by now.

boi


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Profile   Post #: 33
RE: Afghanistan poppy fields - 3/22/2010 9:13:23 PM   
Aneirin


Posts: 6121
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From: Tamaris
Status: offline 		Am wondering if the soil is good enough or can be made good enough for biofuel crop, it is something the world needs seeing as we have been told the oil is running out

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Profile   Post #: 34
RE: Afghanistan poppy fields - 3/22/2010 9:23:08 PM   
jlf1961


Posts: 14840
Joined: 6/10/2008
From: Somewhere Texas
Status: offline 		Legalize marijuana and then let them grow cannabis. New tax revenue for the US government, states etc, and a good cash crop for the former poppy growers.

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Profile   Post #: 35
RE: Afghanistan poppy fields - 3/22/2010 9:24:07 PM   
Elisabella


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BoiJen
This is not the first time, nor will it be the last time, that the Afghanistan people and their horrible little country with its civil war and terrorist hide out policies will ruin a nation. Unfortunately, it will be our nation.

The best thing to do would be leave or set the bitch on fire. It's an "un-win-able" situation or someone else would have won by now.



Heh. Yeah you'd think someone Cheney's age would have remembered how we used Afghanistan to trap the Soviets in an unwinnable war that totally drained their economy and brought down that nasty little wall they had, no?

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Profile   Post #: 36
RE: Afghanistan poppy fields - 3/22/2010 9:30:59 PM   
Brain


Posts: 3792
Joined: 2/14/2007
Status: offline 		I can go for that and next year they need to grow vegetables.

quote:

ORIGINAL: truckinslave

Pay for the crop, then destroy it.

Or just let the Afghans destroy it, then come in and spread some money around.

(in reply to truckinslave)
Profile   Post #: 37
RE: Afghanistan poppy fields - 3/23/2010 12:55:50 AM   
Ialdabaoth


Posts: 1073
Joined: 5/4/2008
From: Tempe, AZ
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella


You're right, opium is only lethal if an overdose is taken, tobacco products are lethal when used as directed.


Are you suggesting Opium is safer than tobacco then ? 



Given that morphine is used as a painkiller in hospitals all the time, yeah, I'd say that's accurate.

Anything can be made safe if it's properly administered and controlled; anything can be dangerous when abused.

Why is this surprising?

(in reply to Politesub53)
Profile   Post #: 38
RE: Afghanistan poppy fields - 3/23/2010 4:58:52 AM   
truckinslave


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quote:

I'm not sure I believe that, I'm fairly confident that the lethal dose in heroin would be comparatively low to anyone who is not an addict.


As a first responder to a couple fatal ODs back in the 70s I am very sure I don't either.

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Profile   Post #: 39
RE: Afghanistan poppy fields - 3/23/2010 5:10:48 AM   
BoiJen


Posts: 2608
Joined: 3/7/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella
Heh. Yeah you'd think someone Cheney's age would have remembered how we used Afghanistan to trap the Soviets in an unwinnable war that totally drained their economy and brought down that nasty little wall they had, no?


Thank you! I feel validated...someone knows their military history...or at least knows how to use resources enough to make a good evaluation of the situation.

This is a bad choice to stay there. Burn it and get the fuckers we're supposed to get or leave. Staying will only lead to the further down fall of this nation.

Besides, when we're out to get the "terrorists" and their network, it doesn't do well to treat the people hiding them or supplying them with their revenue stream. If this were a single incident in the States, we call it aiding and abetting. Why the HELL are WE aiding and abetting the guys we're supposedly after? I cannot be the only one who sees this fact.

boi

< Message edited by BoiJen -- 3/23/2010 5:13:50 AM >

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Profile   Post #: 40
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