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RE: Afghanistan poppy fields - 3/23/2010 6:49:21 AM   
Moonhead


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella


You're right, opium is only lethal if an overdose is taken, tobacco products are lethal when used as directed.


Are you suggesting Opium is safer than tobacco then ? 

Morphine is widely used as an anaesthetic. I don't think anybody's found a medical use for tobacco as yet.

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Profile   Post #: 41
RE: Afghanistan poppy fields - 3/23/2010 7:15:32 AM   
BoiJen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead


quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella


You're right, opium is only lethal if an overdose is taken, tobacco products are lethal when used as directed.


Are you suggesting Opium is safer than tobacco then ? 

Morphine is widely used as an anaesthetic. I don't think anybody's found a medical use for tobacco as yet.


Medicinal Tobacco

The remarkable stimulant properties of tobacco were utilised by early American Indians in curing wounds, swellings, coughs, tooth-ache, rheumatism, and stomach disorders. Tobacco was administered to patients in several forms, and was used in emergency treatment for snake and insect bites.


The sedative powers of tobacco were also used in medical treatment.
(Sixteenth-century drawing)Used in medical treatment (16C drawing)

http://www.jti.co.jp/Culture/museum/english/tabacco/route/uses.html

Nicotine in tobacco form accounts for millions of deaths each year from cancer, emphysema and heart disease. Yet, in certain neurologic and psychiatric conditions, nicotine can have useful therapeutic effects, reported scientists at the inaugural conference of the Society for Research on Nicotine and Tobacco.

http://www.accessexcellence.org/WN/SUA03/medical_tobacco.php

"Old wives" have been using wet tobacco for centuries to help with bee stings and like as well.

Just sayin....

boi


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Profile   Post #: 42
RE: Afghanistan poppy fields - 3/23/2010 7:49:47 AM   
thompsonx


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Status: offline 		I have this really cool memory of waking up pinned beneath an EMT and having no idea where I was.

You are such a slut...it seems you will do anything to get laid

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Profile   Post #: 43
RE: Afghanistan poppy fields - 3/23/2010 7:57:07 AM   
thompsonx


Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
Status: offline 		if you're arguing that it's impossible to overdose on pure heroin I'll just say for your own sake...stay away from it. It's a powerful drug, shouldn't be treated so casually.


I have not sugested that anyone treat opiats casually.  I am saying that the PDR list no LD50 for heroin/morphine.
I am an old phoque who has led an ...interesting life.  I have, had on more than a few occasions, been administered opiats .  I do not find in them any attraction for me as a recreational drug. 
I am old and my taste in drugs are firmly fixed and at this point in my life I have no interest in "experimentation"

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Profile   Post #: 44
RE: Afghanistan poppy fields - 3/23/2010 8:01:18 AM   
thompsonx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: truckinslave

quote:

I'm not sure I believe that, I'm fairly confident that the lethal dose in heroin would be comparatively low to anyone who is not an addict.


As a first responder to a couple fatal ODs back in the 70s I am very sure I don't either.


If you had read the cites that Elisabella posted you would know how wrong you are.  The cites she posted state clearly that most "overdose" deaths are the result of the cut and not the heroin.

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Profile   Post #: 45
RE: Afghanistan poppy fields - 3/23/2010 10:16:06 AM   
BoiJen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

quote:

ORIGINAL: truckinslave

quote:

I'm not sure I believe that, I'm fairly confident that the lethal dose in heroin would be comparatively low to anyone who is not an addict.


As a first responder to a couple fatal ODs back in the 70s I am very sure I don't either.


If you had read the cites that Elisabella posted you would know how wrong you are.  The cites she posted state clearly that most "overdose" deaths are the result of the cut and not the heroin.


Fine....please type in (or copy and paste) these two words into your search engine of choice "fentanyl deaths".

Fentanyl is an opioid. The LD50 is 3.1 milligrams per kilogram in rats and 0.03 milligram per kilogram in monies. The LD50 has not been determined in people because of how fast it breaks down in the human body even after death. Most Dr. with experience with Fentanyl will tell you they like to call it "synthetic heroin".

"The biological effects of the fentanyls are similar to those of heroin, with the exception that many users report a noticeably less euphoric 'high' associated with the drug and stronger sedative and analgesic effects."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fentanyl

Call it a shit resource if you want. All of the informational citations at the bottom of the page support this bit. There's 42 of them...most of them are medical citations while the others are considers "general" in nature because they were found via an academic database search.

boi


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Profile   Post #: 46
RE: Afghanistan poppy fields - 3/23/2010 11:12:22 AM   
thompsonx


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Status: offline 		I am sure you have a point but I was not discusing synthetic heroin I was discusing the LD50 of  heroin/morphine.
When you find an LD50 for that in the PDR please let me know so I can alert the press.


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Profile   Post #: 47
RE: Afghanistan poppy fields - 3/23/2010 11:41:47 AM   
BoiJen


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Status: offline 		http://www.drugbank.ca/drugs/DB00295

You'll find it under toxicity.

Here's another one by a doctor playing with drug combination:

http://works.bepress.com/kelvin_chan/28/

Sorry, I don't have your precious PDR. You'll notice that most ER doctors don't go around carrying them while ordering drugs for a patient. In fact, the only type of people I've know to solely rely on the PDR in such a religious manner as you have thompson are paramedics who don't actually know their shit.

Just sayin....

boi

BTW: The LD50 notation in mice and rats is significant as it's the test basis of human consumption. To ignore that fact and simply stating "That doesn't say what the LD50 is in humans" is the most asinine thing I've read in a long Goddamned time. It shows ignorance of the scientific process used to protect people from over dosing repeatedly and really seems to be your only effort at trying to prove your case. Just because you seem to want to ignore the facts doesn't make them less true.


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Profile   Post #: 48
RE: Afghanistan poppy fields - 3/23/2010 12:35:58 PM   
thompsonx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BoiJen

http://www.drugbank.ca/drugs/DB00295

You'll find it under toxicity.

Here's another one by a doctor playing with drug combination:

http://works.bepress.com/kelvin_chan/28/

Sorry, I don't have your precious PDR. You'll notice that most ER doctors don't go around carrying them while ordering drugs for a patient. In fact, the only type of people I've know to solely rely on the PDR in such a religious manner as you have thompson are paramedics who don't actually know their shit.

Just sayin....

boi

BTW: The LD50 notation in mice and rats is significant as it's the test basis of human consumption. To ignore that fact and simply stating "That doesn't say what the LD50 is in humans" is the most asinine thing I've read in a long Goddamned time. It shows ignorance of the scientific process used to protect people from over dosing repeatedly and really seems to be your only effort at trying to prove your case. Just because you seem to want to ignore the facts doesn't make them less true.

Why do you think they put LD50 in the PDR?
This is the quote from the toxicity section of your cite.  You will note that it takes 600mg/kg to kill a rat but only 120-250mg to kill a human.


quote:

LD50 = 461 mg/kg (rat, oral), 600 mg/kg (mouse, oral). Human lethal dose by ingestion is 120-250 mg of morphine sulfate. Symptoms of overdose include cold, clammy skin, flaccid muscles, fluid in the lungs, lowered blood pressure, "pinpoint" or dilated pupils, sleepiness leading to stupor and coma, slowed breathing, and slow pulse rate.



Also from the same site with a link to the PDR:
quote:



What is the usual dosage?
Return to top

The information below is based on the dosage guidelines your doctor uses. Depending on your condition and medical history, your doctor may prescribe a different regimen. Do not change the dosage or stop taking your medication without your doctor's approval.
Adults: MS Contin is usually taken every 12 hours at doses that range from 15 milligrams (mg) to 200 mg per dose. Your individual dose depends on if you have taken another narcotic pain medication in the past or are switching from another pain medication to MS Contin. Your dose is also determined by your doctor based on the type of pain medication you have taken in the past and its dose.
MS Contin 100 and 200 mg tablets are only to be taken by patients who are tolerant of daily doses of morphine of 200 mg and greater for the 100 mg tablet or 400 mg and greater for the 200 mg tablet.


Here you will note that the normal dosage is in excess of what your cite claims is LD50.
You will also note that this morphine tablet comes also in a 400mg tablet.
There is a reason they call that book the Physicians Desk Reference.

(in reply to BoiJen)
Profile   Post #: 49
RE: Afghanistan poppy fields - 3/23/2010 12:52:22 PM   
Politesub53


Posts: 14862
Joined: 5/7/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead


quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella


You're right, opium is only lethal if an overdose is taken, tobacco products are lethal when used as directed.


Are you suggesting Opium is safer than tobacco then ? 

Morphine is widely used as an anaesthetic. I don't think anybody's found a medical use for tobacco as yet.


Rubbish, uncut heroin is lethal, despite all Thompsons nonsense about LD50.  The problem isnt just the drug, it is the associated crime and violence that it also produces. Users turning to robbery or prostitution to pay for fixes.
We are not talking about using morhine for medical purposes, at least i didnt think we were. I thought the topic was keeping drugs off the streets, and keeping kids safe.

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Profile   Post #: 50
RE: Afghanistan poppy fields - 3/23/2010 1:03:48 PM   
thompsonx


Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
Status: offline 		Rubbish, uncut heroin is lethal, despite all Thompsons nonsense about LD50.  The problem isnt just the drug, it is the associated crime and violence that it also produces. Users turning to robbery or prostitution to pay for fixes.
We are not talking about using morhine for medical purposes, at least i didnt think we were. I thought the topic was keeping drugs off the streets, and keeping kids safe.

Uncut heroin/morphine is what is used in hospitals to control pain.
The reason there is crime associated with heroin is because it is illegal.  If it were legal there would be little crime associated with gaining enough money to pay for it because it is unbelievably cheap when purchased legally.
I think parents should have control of what their children do.
I believe adults should have control of what they do as long as it does not interfear with other people's rights.


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Profile   Post #: 51
RE: Afghanistan poppy fields - 3/23/2010 1:13:54 PM   
BoiJen


Posts: 2608
Joined: 3/7/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx


Why do you think they put LD50 in the PDR?
This is the quote from the toxicity section of your cite.  You will note that it takes 600mg/kg to kill a rat but only 120-250mg to kill a human.




Also from the same site with a link to the PDR:

What is the usual dosage?
Return to top

The information below is based on the dosage guidelines your doctor uses. Depending on your condition and medical history, your doctor may prescribe a different regimen. Do not change the dosage or stop taking your medication without your doctor's approval.
Adults: MS Contin is usually taken every 12 hours at doses that range from 15 milligrams (mg) to 200 mg per dose. Your individual dose depends on if you have taken another narcotic pain medication in the past or are switching from another pain medication to MS Contin. Your dose is also determined by your doctor based on the type of pain medication you have taken in the past and its dose.
MS Contin 100 and 200 mg tablets are only to be taken by patients who are tolerant of daily doses of morphine of 200 mg and greater for the 100 mg tablet or 400 mg and greater for the 200 mg tablet

Here you will note that the normal dosage is in excess of what your cite claims is LD50.
You will also note that this morphine tablet comes also in a 400mg tablet.
There is a reason they call that book the Physicians Desk Reference.


You missed the note where it says the dosage is measured as 120-250 mg per kg. I'm sorry that you have no ability to use the inferred information given.

You also seem to selectively notice that there's a tolerance note at the end of your quote.

Just because you're plugging your ears and singing "lalalalalalala" doesn't mean you're right when presented with facts that contradict your position.

boi

< Message edited by BoiJen -- 3/23/2010 1:15:11 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 52
RE: Afghanistan poppy fields - 3/23/2010 1:15:42 PM   
Politesub53


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quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

Uncut heroin/morphine is what is used in hospitals to control pain.
The reason there is crime associated with heroin is because it is illegal.  If it were legal there would be little crime associated with gaining enough money to pay for it because it is unbelievably cheap when purchased legally.
I think parents should have control of what their children do.
I believe adults should have control of what they do as long as it does not interfear with other people's rights.


Thats just it though, the drug trade does interfere with other peoples rights. You and I both know that the dosage used in hospitals is minute compared to the dosage taken by users. The more someone uses, the more they need for an effective hit.

As for making it legal solving all the criminality, it hasnt worked too well in the UK with both booze and tobacco. There is an extremely violent black market involving counterfeit goods, or good brought cheaper in the EU. So lets not have that old chesnut that making drugs legal is a magical panacea.

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Profile   Post #: 53
RE: Afghanistan poppy fields - 3/23/2010 1:20:28 PM   
BoiJen


Posts: 2608
Joined: 3/7/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

Rubbish, uncut heroin is lethal, despite all Thompsons nonsense about LD50.  The problem isnt just the drug, it is the associated crime and violence that it also produces. Users turning to robbery or prostitution to pay for fixes.
We are not talking about using morhine for medical purposes, at least i didnt think we were. I thought the topic was keeping drugs off the streets, and keeping kids safe.


According to thompson, kids are safe, no matter how much of this drug they take. I'm sure that this kind of logic or argument would hold up well against a negligent homicide case or maybe thompson should go and represent those doctors across the country who have been prosecuted for murder for over dosing patients on morphine.

Cuz we *know* this argument will hold up in court.

Wait...would the medical expert opinions who cite the over dose information already given be over riding some poor printing in the PDR that thompson wants to use a defense?

I dunno. All I know is I've never seen a general physician pull out on of those little books to look up what  patient needs when prescribing something and I don't trust anyone who's gonna need to pull out the book in an emergency.

boi


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Profile   Post #: 54
RE: Afghanistan poppy fields - 3/23/2010 3:08:58 PM   
thompsonx


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Joined: 10/1/2006
Status: offline 		I would never sugest that it was a panacea but what we have now clearly is not working.  In places where decriminalization has been tried there have been positive but not perfect results.

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Profile   Post #: 55
RE: Afghanistan poppy fields - 3/23/2010 3:18:53 PM   
thompsonx


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quote:

According to thompson, kids are safe, no matter how much of this drug they take.

No that is according to you.  I have never said that.  Since you know I have never said that that would make you a liar.

quote:

I'm sure that this kind of logic or argument would hold up well against a negligent homicide case or maybe thompson should go and represent those doctors across the country who have been prosecuted for murder for over dosing patients on morphine.

Cuz we *know* this argument will hold up in court.


What you do not seem to know is that you can kill someone with air,water,nitrogen,carbon, all things which do not have an LD50.  My point was and is that heroin/morphine in and of itself is not lethal...that does not mean that massive dossages would be safe anymore than massive dossage of most any substance would be safe.


quote:

I dunno.



That is obvious

quote:

All I know is I've never seen a general physician pull out on of those little books

Not exactly a little book...try holding one in one hand at arms length for a few minutes.



< Message edited by thompsonx -- 3/23/2010 3:21:54 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 56
RE: Afghanistan poppy fields - 3/23/2010 3:29:51 PM   
thompsonx


Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
Status: offline 		You missed the note where it says the dosage is measured as 120-250 mg per kg. I'm sorry that you have no ability to use the inferred information given.

120-250mg/kg...two pound rat vs. two hundred pound human. 120-250mg x 100=12000-25000mg.  Your cite said 600mg was LD50.  Your cite also shows 600mg as a standard dose.
Your cite is self contradictory. I make the statement that "the" standard reference on the pharmacopia states thus and so and you say that "the" standard reference on the pharmacopia is someone's wet dream.  I don't know what you are smoking lady but how bout you "don't bogart dat joint"

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Profile   Post #: 57
RE: Afghanistan poppy fields - 3/23/2010 4:01:32 PM   
jlf1961


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Joined: 6/10/2008
From: Somewhere Texas
Status: offline 		I repeat, legalize marijuana and let the Afghan people grow that, massive tax revenues for the US government, as well as state tax revenues. everyone wins

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Profile   Post #: 58
RE: Afghanistan poppy fields - 3/23/2010 4:32:54 PM   
thompsonx


Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

I repeat, legalize marijuana and let the Afghan people grow that, massive tax revenues for the US government, as well as state tax revenues. everyone wins


If they legalize it here there will be no import market.  Domestic production would fulfill the domestic market and then some.

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Profile   Post #: 59
RE: Afghanistan poppy fields - 3/23/2010 4:39:55 PM   
jlf1961


Posts: 14840
Joined: 6/10/2008
From: Somewhere Texas
Status: offline 		Actually, the United States imports tobacco and would most likely import marijuana from other countries. Unless most of the farmers in the states switch over to the new crop, and fines set for illegally growing marijuana on public lands, the demand (from what I have seen) would keep a few countries exporting to the states annually.

_____________________________

Boy, it sure would be nice if we had some grenades, don't you think?

You cannot control who comes into your life, but you can control which airlock you throw them out of.

Paranoid Paramilitary Gun Loving Conspiracy Theorist AND EQUAL OPPORTUNI

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Profile   Post #: 60
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