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The Nine Degrees of Submission - 3/22/2010 9:51:11 PM   
MasterXMagnum


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Being new I to your site I started reading a few things and find there's plenty of experience here, so I thought I'd run something by you I've had from so long ago I can't even remember where. It's called the Nine Degrees of Submission. Maybe it's just someone quantifying it, giving it a nomenclature, but I thought I'd see how everyone feels about this PARTICULAR listing of these degrees. I don't claim it, but I feel like it's been a decent categorization.

That noted, does categorization have a value? Anyone, anyone...

The Nine Degrees Of Submission

1. The outright non-submissive masochist or kinky sensualist
Not into servitude, humiliation or giving up of control; just pain and/or spiced-up sensuality, on the masochist's own terms for the masochist's own pleasure (ie: being turned on solely or mainly by one's own bodily sensations, rather than being turned on by being "used" to gratify one's partner's sadism).

2. Pseudo-submissive non-slave
Not into even playing "slave", but into other "submissive" role-playing, e.g.: schoolteacher scenes, infantilism, "forced" transvestism. Usually into humiliation, but NOT into servitude, even in play. Dictates the scene to a large degree.

3. Pseudo-submissive PLAY slave
Likes to play at being slave. Likes to *feel* subservient; may in some cases like to *feel* that one is being "used" to gratify one's partner's sadism; and may even really serve the dominant in some ways, but only on the "slave's" own terms. Dictates the scene to a large degree; often fetishistic (e.g. foot worshippers).

4. True submissive non-slave
Really gives up control (though only temporarily and within agreed upon limits), but gets his/her main satisfaction from aspects of submission *other than* serving or being used by the dominant. Usually turned on by suspense, vulnerability, and/or giving up of responsibility. Doesn't dictate the scene except in very general terms, but still seeks mainly her/his own *direct* pleasure (rather than getting one's pleasure mainly from pleasing the dominant).

5. True submissive PLAY slave
Really gives up control (though only temporarily; only during brief "scenes" and within limits) and gets his/her main satisfaction from serving and being used by the dominant - but only for FUN purposes, usually erotic. (May or may not be into pain, but if so, is turned on by pain *indirectly*, ie: enjoys being the objects of one's partner's sadism, on which the submissive places few requirements or restrictions.)

6. Uncommitted short-term but more-than-play semi-slave
Really gives up control (though usually within limits); wants to serve and be used by the dominant; wants to provide practical/non-erotic as well as fun/ erotic services; but only when the "slave" is in the mood. May even act as a full-time slave for, say, several days at a time, but is free to quit at any time (or at the end of the agreed upon several days). May or may not have a long-term relationship with one's Mistress/Master, but, either way, the "slave" has the final say over when he or she will serve.

7. Part-time consensual but REAL slave
Has ongoing commitment to an owner/slave relationship, and regards oneself as the Mistress'/Master's "property" at all times. Wants to obey and please her/him in all aspects of life - practical/non-erotic as well as fun/erotic. Devotes most of one's time to other commitments (eg: job) but the Mistress/Master has first pick of the slave's free time.

8. Full-time live-in consensual slave
Within no more than a few broad limits/requirements, the slave regards herself/ himself as existing solely for the Mistress'/Master's use, pleasure and well- being. The slave in turn expects to be regarded as a prized possession. Not much different from the situation of the traditional housewife, except that within the S/M world the slave's position is more likely to be fully consensual, especially if the slave is male (since men certainly aren't socially pressured into this kind of lifestyle). Within the S/M world, a full-time "slave" arrangement is entered into with an explicit awareness of the magnitude of power that is being given up, and hence is usually entered into much more carefully, with more awareness of the possible dangers, and with much clearer and more specific agreements than usually precede the traditional marriage.

9. Consensual total slave with no limits
A common fantasy ideal which probably doesn't exist in real life (except in authoritarian religious cults and other situations where the "consent" is induced by brainwashing and/or social or economic pressures, and hence isn't fully consensual). A few S/M purists will insist that you aren't really a slave unless you're willing to do absolutely *anything* for your Mistress/ Master, with no limits at all. There are a few who claim to be no-limits slaves, but in all cases it would be reasonable to doubt the claim.
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RE: The Nine Degrees of Submission - 3/22/2010 9:56:20 PM   
Andalusite


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One person's slave is another person's submissive is another person's bottom. Generally, I think that labels can be useful, but until they're used in the context of a specific relationship, with both people agreeing what *they* mean by them, they're still a bit nebulous. I don't fit any of those as a constant - I'm currently what you refer to as a "part-time real slave," and I have a submissive playpartner who I tie up and hurt, and who enjoys service in the context of play. In other relationships, I've been a masochist without any D/s, a sadist without any D/s, a switch, a submissive for 3 years, and a Domme for 5 years. It depends on the dynamic and interaction with the specific person, and how I react to them. I'm an e) All of the above! kind of girl.

< Message edited by Andalusite -- 3/22/2010 9:59:57 PM >

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RE: The Nine Degrees of Submission - 3/22/2010 10:07:33 PM   
dreamerdreaming


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#1 is a bottom. Bottoming is not a degree of submission.

I can't read the rest. It makes my brain hurt just looking at all that. Labels aren't useful unless people can agree on them. If we can't all agree on just a few very basic definitions, then what would make anyone think that nine will work better for us?

More is not better.


ETA: how many degrees of domming are there, OP??

< Message edited by dreamerdreaming -- 3/22/2010 11:40:43 PM >


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RE: The Nine Degrees of Submission - 3/22/2010 10:12:39 PM   
CarrieO


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http://www.collarchat.com/fb.asp?m=10332

http://www.collarchat.com/fb.asp?m=3106328

http://www.collarchat.com/fb.asp?m=1873

This list, in one way or another, has been floating around, and talked about, for a long time.

I guess if one person needs to fit another neatly into a box, this list would be as good as any other.  I like to stick with the K.I.S.S. method...Keep It Simple Stupid. 9 degrees?  Why not just one....Mine!

I prefer to look at the person and how they fit into my life and the dynamic between us more than how I can label them. 

Of course, I'm not what you'd call the most "experienced" here and I'm not trying to be.

*edited to add a bit, including some breaks.

< Message edited by CarrieO -- 3/22/2010 10:28:55 PM >


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RE: The Nine Degrees of Submission - 3/22/2010 11:59:45 PM   
myotherself


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who I am and what I am depends on who I'm with.

Making lists to pigeonhole people is pointless - there are as many different s-types as there are people.

Ditto D-types.

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RE: The Nine Degrees of Submission - 3/23/2010 12:17:42 AM   
GreedyTop


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what da bunny said....

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RE: The Nine Degrees of Submission - 3/23/2010 1:19:18 AM   
crazyml


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Hmmm... nope, not for me. These classifications bother me for a couple of reasons - first, why nine degrees? Why not four, or 256?

Secondly what is the purpose of doing the classification? - Is it about hierarchy - "the higher your number the more 'real' your submission"?

I guess one area where this list might be helpful is as a way of thinking about the different ways in which people might want to submit, but I genuinely doubt that it's a usefull thing to actually classify subs this way.

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RE: The Nine Degrees of Submission - 3/23/2010 3:21:43 AM   
aldompdx


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A continuum of infinite points exist between the polarities of control and surrender. Every person is different, at different times. When the difference over time becomes pronounced, some attach the label of "switch." Surrender may be stronger at one internal level than at another. There are infinite possible combinations of the infinite points along the aforementioned continuum.

Rather than living in one's head full of conceptual boundaries and labels, one should be adaptive and open their heart to see the unique reality of who another person really is.

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RE: The Nine Degrees of Submission - 3/23/2010 6:28:17 AM   
DickSteel


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I'll take three number 9s, red, blonde and brunette. I'll also have a number 8 and two number 6s on the side please.

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RE: The Nine Degrees of Submission - 3/23/2010 6:38:49 AM   
Kana


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The only classification I care about is the category labeled  Mine.


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RE: The Nine Degrees of Submission - 3/23/2010 6:39:30 AM   
AllLockedUp


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quote:

ORIGINAL: aldompdx

A continuum of infinite points exist between the polarities of control and surrender. Every person is different, at different times. When the difference over time becomes pronounced, some attach the label of "switch." Surrender may be stronger at one internal level than at another. There are infinite possible combinations of the infinite points along the aforementioned continuum.

Rather than living in one's head full of conceptual boundaries and labels, one should be adaptive and open their heart to see the unique reality of who another person really is.




I Totally agree!!!!

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RE: The Nine Degrees of Submission - 3/23/2010 6:54:14 AM   
slavekal


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In order for a slave to get to the higher numbers, it would probably take a lot of training and conditioning on the domme's part.  That kind of submission is not just automatic.

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RE: The Nine Degrees of Submission - 3/23/2010 7:18:17 AM   
lally2


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id identify with number 9 -  - and id like to explain why to help you understand what i understand 'no limits' to mean.

within a safe, sane, concensual Ms relationship, the question of choice is not a power the slave has nor do they want.  therefore to ever say 'no im not doing that, its a hard limit' is in direct contravention of the agreed TPE, it is making a choice the slave/sub does not want to make, they do not want to say no to their Master ever.  it goes against their grain, fabric, inner self.  it would in point of fact, undermine the whole fabric of the relationship.

but - for a slave to be able to find themself in the position of being in a 'no limits' TPE Ms relationship they must first find themselves a Master who is not going to ask them to do things that would go against their emotional and psychological well being and/or they find themselves an M who is fully capable of looking after their slave/sub under such circumstances and the slave/sub trusts them implicitly.  if they can find such a Master or Mistress then it is entirely possible to be in a 'no limits' relationship.

its all about compatibility and not as youve suggested 'brain washing' rather annoying suggestion to be honest.

along the way it might be that the M will want the slave to do something 'more' - go the extra mile, push a pain barrier, try something new, explore, experiment, grow and adapt - but when the trust between them is strong enough and the slave/sub knows that their M will not take them far beyond the SSC premis they have built together, or even if they do - the care, trust, faith, belief, wanting to please and serve their M will ensure that the slave/sub will at the very least, do their best.

categories are helpful for people to identify where they are, what they want and how far they can go (right now) - in a way its a menu of possibilities, but nothing more than that and none are hard and fast or absolute.  some of those categories are stages through which one relationship may grow and develop through and finally settle in the 'no limits' category.


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RE: The Nine Degrees of Submission - 3/23/2010 7:22:52 AM   
RavenMuse


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*g*

Easier way to state what lally just mentioned.... My girl has no limits... that doesn't mean there are no limits within the relationship, she lives within MINE and trusts in those to keep her safe.


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RE: The Nine Degrees of Submission - 3/23/2010 7:28:51 AM   
lally2


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quote:

ORIGINAL: RavenMuse

*g*

Easier way to state what lally just mentioned.... My girl has no limits... that doesn't mean there are no limits within the relationship, she lives within MINE and trusts in those to keep her safe.



(giggles) - yes much more succinct!

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RE: The Nine Degrees of Submission - 3/23/2010 7:30:44 AM   
Shyla


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Labels limit.  I am me.  I was me before you posted your labels.  And I am still me now that you have posted them.  If you insist on viewing the people that you interact with through the lenses of these "degrees", then you won't actually *see* those people, you'll only see them through the labels you use instead of seeing them for who they are.  That's sad, because then you never really get to know people, the depths of their submission or the heights of their passion.  Why do that?


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RE: The Nine Degrees of Submission - 3/23/2010 7:48:01 AM   
lucylucy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: crazyml
Secondly what is the purpose of doing the classification? - Is it about hierarchy - "the higher your number the more 'real' your submission"?

This was my thought. The numbers seem to indicate a progression that I find very problematic, as if a "real" or "true" submissive would gradually move to higher and higher numbers until "achieving" 9. This is not a neutral scale; the numbers take out neutrality. This seems to me to be made for judging people.

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RE: The Nine Degrees of Submission - 3/23/2010 7:52:22 AM   
OsideGirl


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quote:

ORIGINAL: crazyml
Secondly what is the purpose of doing the classification? - Is it about hierarchy - "the higher your number the more 'real' your submission"?
It's to weed out the ones that aren't TWUE submissives.

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RE: The Nine Degrees of Submission - 3/23/2010 7:56:40 AM   
VampiresLair


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I stopped reading at True.

There is only one classification of submission for me... mine. Either you are what I want you to be, or you arent.

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RE: The Nine Degrees of Submission - 3/23/2010 8:02:54 AM   
lovingpet


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Well, OP, it is stuff like this that nearly cost me a very beautiful relationship.  If you are wondering how, don't worry, I will tell you.  Whereas it can seem innocuous enough, it sets up a concept in a submissive person's head.  Bottom is "less" submissive than "submissive" and on it goes.  It has the very good possibility of making a person feel inadequate.  Also, it has a built in disappearing act of the individuality of the submissive person.  That preys upon a HUGE fear.  A lot of submissive people have moments in their relationship or along their overall journey that there is this panic that they are losing themselves and becoming a lesser human being.  It also keys into the concern that the deeper a person's submission to another runs, that there slowly becomes no way out.  It is very easy for a person to fear not being able to do what they must for their own well being and survival.  This listing either diabolically cunningly or unwittingly hits upon just about every deep fear any submissive might have.  It is damaging as its primary effect.

I understand the point of the piece and I guess it is admirable to try to evaluate the different types of submissives along the spectrum.  The problem is that they are, in fact, different and not able to be ranked one over the other.  Labeling always falls short for the very same reasons all across life.  Different doesn't mean better or worse.  Subjective interpretation will always color even the most agreed upon terminology.  People who don't accept the label find that the labels don't stick no matter how hard it is slapped there.  If pushed I'd still say, even with all my epiphanies as of late, that I am not a slave, but a submissive.  Out of those nine degrees though, the word slave starts popping up as far as anything that sounds remotely referencing of me.  My partner calls me his slave.  At the end of the day, all I really need is to be HIS...labels and all.

lovingpet  

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