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RE: The Nine Degrees of Submission - 3/24/2010 5:32:22 AM

Elisabella

Posts: 3939
Status: offline

You guys are crazy. There's only one "true" old celebrity master - David Bowie. In full Goblin King attire.

oh my god those pants and that riding crop totally influenced my [redacted]-year-old fantasies and seriously shaped my view of sexuality. Him, and Wesley from the Princess Bride. Put Wesley's wit with Bowie's everything else and I will seriously give up the notion of "consent" for good.

< Message edited by Elisabella -- 3/24/2010 5:33:59 AM >

(in reply to RavenMuse)

Post #: 61

RE: The Nine Degrees of Submission - 3/24/2010 5:33:35 AM

Elisabella

Posts: 3939
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: takemeforyourown
or maybe Patrick Stewart's.

Have you seen the old BBC programme "I Claudius"?

He's pretty dommy in some of his scenes. He's got a bloody rug on his chest though!

(in reply to takemeforyourown)

Post #: 62

RE: The Nine Degrees of Submission - 3/24/2010 5:47:50 AM

MasterXMagnum

Posts: 23
Joined: 3/16/2010
From: Texas
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Madame4a

Nancy Ava Miller has certainly been around for a long time.. but this 9 levels of submission (in many different forms) is not hers... and it starting getting thrown around the internet.. without an author... likely ten years ago... maybe more...

the original was published in the Lesbian Sex Manual edited by then Pat Califia (now Patrick) and really has made the rounds of the net in various iterations

Oy...
Yes, I actually noted this myself in a previous post. And I 'm sure you're right about Pat Califia being the genesis of this <she, now he, was a native Texan btw>. I "interviewed" her when I was the Dungeon moderator on a rather large BBS called Dallas Chat Channel back in the early '90s, which is NOT impressive it was a voluntary thing I just enjoyed doing, AND my wife and I were attending the same PEP/Beyond Vanilla event she was in town for. She was most graciously amused at having this attributed, albeit wrongly, to her, and didn't have any better idea of it's origins than I did at that time, and equally so by being called the Pied Piper of S&M, as she kind of was at the time, being one of very few people willing to put their face on broadcast television in association with the lifestyle in that day. She was, and I'm sure remains, a delightful person to speak with.

The old BBS world was different, much more local in focus, but as the usenet portals allowed interaction across timezones and gave like-minded people a chance to get to know one another, find out there were others out there with similar interests, it laid a lot the embryonic groundwork for the way the internet is utilized today. Hell, Match.com started as a dialup bbs based out of Plano TX by one of the original writers of American Airline's Sabre system. And, yes, we were on it back then.

But the WWW is much better, and I've always said that. In every way but the egos.

_____________________________

A man who carries a cat by the tail learns something he can learn in no other way. Mark Twain

Criticizing is easy, art is difficult.

The only time you run out of chances is when you stop taking them.

(in reply to Madame4a)

Post #: 63

RE: The Nine Degrees of Submission - 3/24/2010 5:53:57 AM

Madame4a

Posts: 2045
Joined: 2/4/2008
From: Washington, DC area
Status: offline

I said Pat edited the book, not wrote it.

_____________________________

You're crazy bitch
But you f*ck so good, I'm on top of it
When I dream, I'm doing you all night
Scratches all down my back to keep me right on

(in reply to MasterXMagnum)

Post #: 64

RE: The Nine Degrees of Submission - 3/24/2010 6:39:43 AM

RedMagic1

Posts: 6470
Joined: 5/10/2007
Status: offline

It sounds as though you have a lot to contribute here, MasterMagnum. I am a bit perplexed as to why you'd make your first post about the nine levels of submission, when you could have talked about your own life, your own experiences, etc., and provided people more valuable information, and received less static in return. I hope you'll stick around, in any case.

Pat Califa's a guy now? Fuck! So's Lee Harrington! I can't keep track anymore. Life was so much easier in the primordial slime.......

And PS to domi: it looks to me as though you insulted LadyAngelika's looks and brains, with no provocation or response from her. Looks are subjective, I suppose, so I'll leave that alone, but her brain? Seriously? She's on my Facebook and I've seen her web sites, you know, and she really did just publish a new book, the way she claimed in Ask a Mistress. You're not exactly looking like the tenth level of dominance here.

_____________________________

Not with envy, not with a twisted heart, shall you feel superior, or go about boasting. Rather in goodness by action make true your song and your word. Thus you shall be highly regarded, and able to live in peace with all others.
- 15th century Aztec

(in reply to Madame4a)

Post #: 65

RE: The Nine Degrees of Submission - 3/24/2010 6:46:25 AM

SimplyMichael

Posts: 7229
Joined: 1/7/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: RedMagic1

Pat Califa's a guy now? Fuck! So's Lee Harrington! I can't keep track anymore. Life was so much easier in the primordial slime.......

Yep he is! Still rabble rousing too. This is years ago and I can't remember how I was involved, some committee or something but we had this issue with lesbian only parties that involved Califia. Is someone who was biologically a woman, but was a post op transexual with a penis who is living full time as a man while dating a woman, a straight man or a lesbian.

Wow, what a bitter fight that was, only in San Francisco!

(in reply to RedMagic1)

Post #: 66

RE: The Nine Degrees of Submission - 3/24/2010 7:55:23 AM

MasterXMagnum

Posts: 23
Joined: 3/16/2010
From: Texas
Status: offline

What can I say? Just dipping in my toe here. New to the group, etc. I like to discuss meat, I guess, and as I asked originally, part of the meat of this was the very value of it, which is the largest piece of the discussion. AND that's good!

It's good to know the depth everyone goes to here in their consideration of what they do. I've seen a LOT of sites over time and you just have to put your hook in and see what kind of bites you get. I'll change baits now ::grin::

Man... fishing analogies make me long for the water.

Magnum

P.S. Thank you for the welcome.

quote:

ORIGINAL: RedMagic1

It sounds as though you have a lot to contribute here, MasterMagnum. I am a bit perplexed as to why you'd make your first post about the nine levels of submission, when you could have talked about your own life, your own experiences, etc., and provided people more valuable information, and received less static in return. I hope you'll stick around, in any case.

Pat Califa's a guy now? Fuck! So's Lee Harrington! I can't keep track anymore. Life was so much easier in the primordial slime.......

_____________________________

A man who carries a cat by the tail learns something he can learn in no other way. Mark Twain

Criticizing is easy, art is difficult.

The only time you run out of chances is when you stop taking them.

(in reply to RedMagic1)

Post #: 67

RE: The Nine Degrees of Submission - 3/24/2010 10:19:57 AM

lally2

Posts: 2621
Joined: 4/16/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: RavenMuse

quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael
as many here did this at real bars back when sex was new and we had to kill dinosaurs to get our leathers.

You had dinosaurs? You lucky lucky bastard.... You have no idea how hard it is to make leather from primordial slime?

oh touche!

- plaudits (sorry michael, just that was funny)

_____________________________

So all I have to do in order to serve him, is to work out exactly how improbable he is, feed that figure into the finite improbability generator, give him a fresh cup of really hot tea ... and turn him on!

(in reply to RavenMuse)

Post #: 68

RE: The Nine Degrees of Submission - 3/24/2010 10:22:37 AM

lally2

Posts: 2621
Joined: 4/16/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterXMagnum

What can I say? Just dipping in my toe here. New to the group, etc. I like to discuss meat, I guess, and as I asked originally, part of the meat of this was the very value of it, which is the largest piece of the discussion. AND that's good!

It's good to know the depth everyone goes to here in their consideration of what they do. I've seen a LOT of sites over time and you just have to put your hook in and see what kind of bites you get. I'll change baits now ::grin::

Man... fishing analogies make me long for the water.

Magnum

P.S. Thank you for the welcome.

quote:

ORIGINAL: RedMagic1

It sounds as though you have a lot to contribute here, MasterMagnum. I am a bit perplexed as to why you'd make your first post about the nine levels of submission, when you could have talked about your own life, your own experiences, etc., and provided people more valuable information, and received less static in return. I hope you'll stick around, in any case.

Pat Califa's a guy now? Fuck! So's Lee Harrington! I can't keep track anymore. Life was so much easier in the primordial slime.......

yes, i meant to welcome you too -

_____________________________

So all I have to do in order to serve him, is to work out exactly how improbable he is, feed that figure into the finite improbability generator, give him a fresh cup of really hot tea ... and turn him on!

(in reply to MasterXMagnum)

Post #: 69

RE: The Nine Degrees of Submission - 3/24/2010 2:19:04 PM

HisEvelyn

Posts: 252
Joined: 1/21/2010
Status: offline

This thread is fascinating, for both the discussion and also the silliness. Still giggling at the mental image my brain came up with about a guy trying to skin primordial slime. :)

Often... I like lists. I admit it. They're neat, and simple. Then again, I'm also still very new to the entire lifestyle in so many ways. And this thread reminds me yet again that there are as many different colors and flavors of submission/dominance as there are people. Lists about people don't work, simply because they ARE simple. Honestly, when I really thought about it, I couldn't even pick a number for myself on that list. It was like "OK, I'm mostly a 5, with a little 6 and sometimes a 4"... and on and on.

I personally am grateful for this thread and all the talk it has inspired, as it helps me keep perpsective as I take this journey into exploring my submissiveness. Reminds me that I don't need to aspire to be anything other than myself and the best that I myself can be, that my Master loves me for MY unique submission and not because he wants me to be a number 8 or whatever.

(in reply to lally2)

Post #: 70

RE: The Nine Degrees of Submission - 3/24/2010 5:50:53 PM

cloudboy

Posts: 7306
Joined: 12/14/2005
Status: offline

First of all, let's not get overly-serious about anything. Next -- the problem with your response and arguably the problem with "BDSM" is the tautology of "dominance."

Any Dom or Domme can object to being a "do-me" Domme by saying, "I have the authority." "That's the way it is!"

I say, "you're still just a do-me Domme," wanting off from D/s whenever you want it.

Its just ironic that Do-me Dom's and Dommes then "take offense" at subs who do what doms do [the shame of it!]) by having their "do me" attitudes as well. (Ergo "the nine degrees of submission")

Last thing: I did not "miss the point of your post." I just construed your assumptions differently. I don't see D/S as one person expecting another person to act civilized and considerate in a restaurant. Sorry, that is not "dominance" and it is not BDSM. To me your restaurant scenario is: "I don't want to do D/S when I'm out at a restaurant, because I don't want to bother with D/S in that setting."

But, under the tautology of dominance, you and any other card-carrying member of the Dominant sister-and-or-brotherhood of dominance -- can characterize your own choices and behaviors with impunity. Hence two people eating breakfast in silence while reading the newspaper would be "D/S" if that's what the Dom or Domme wants to think it is. (Maybe, too, there is rule up on the wall about it -- giving the whole scene a heavy BDSM quality.)

You can call that "dominance," but I'll call it "down time." (Rule or no rule up on the wall about it.)

< Message edited by cloudboy -- 3/24/2010 6:05:34 PM >

(in reply to LadyAngelika)

Post #: 71

RE: The Nine Degrees of Submission - 3/24/2010 6:25:20 PM

thornhappy

Posts: 8596
Joined: 12/16/2006
Status: offline

He made of whole bunch o' my women friends swoon in that scene where he tells (what's her name?) just what he's going to do to her....very naughty things!

quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella

quote:

ORIGINAL: takemeforyourown
or maybe Patrick Stewart's.

Have you seen the old BBC programme "I Claudius"?

He's pretty dommy in some of his scenes. He's got a bloody rug on his chest though!

(in reply to Elisabella)

Post #: 72

RE: The Nine Degrees of Submission - 3/24/2010 6:37:05 PM

LadyAngelika

Posts: 8070
Joined: 7/4/2004
Status: offline

quote:

you and any other card-carrying member of the Dominant sister-and-or-brotherhood of dominance

Cloudboy, you really need to get in touch with reality. Seriously.

- LA

_____________________________

Une main de fer dans un gant de velours ~ An iron hand in a velvet glove

(in reply to cloudboy)

Post #: 73

RE: The Nine Degrees of Submission - 3/24/2010 6:41:26 PM

LadyAngelika

Posts: 8070
Joined: 7/4/2004
Status: offline

Red, you are a true gentleman, always :-)

quote:

It sounds as though you have a lot to contribute here, MasterMagnum.

Agreed. I look forward to hearing more from Magnum as well.

Welcome to collarme.

- LA

_____________________________

Une main de fer dans un gant de velours ~ An iron hand in a velvet glove

(in reply to RedMagic1)

Post #: 74

RE: The Nine Degrees of Submission - 3/25/2010 1:05:11 PM

xssve

Posts: 3589
Joined: 10/10/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: lucylucy

quote:

ORIGINAL: crazyml
Secondly what is the purpose of doing the classification? - Is it about hierarchy - "the higher your number the more 'real' your submission"?

This was my thought. The numbers seem to indicate a progression that I find very problematic, as if a "real" or "true" submissive would gradually move to higher and higher numbers until "achieving" 9. This is not a neutral scale; the numbers take out neutrality. This seems to me to be made for judging people.

Only if becoming a "true submissive" is something you assign value to.

Otherwise, as far as I can tell it merely describes a set of relative social constraints regarding levels of commitment, it sort of defines the parameters for both parties - i.e. you may have different levels of limits with someone you're in a committed relationship with than you do with a casual play partner.

I see no reason you cannot identify on one level with one person, and another with somebody else - or even one thing at one time and another at another time, people do change. It's an abstract scale and you're only "locked in" to it insofar as you think you are, even at level 9.

I see it more as a list of options accompanied by a general description, of possible use in negotiating short term expectations, rather than a hierarchy or a continuum, but those who think in terms of hierarchies may well be likely to interpret it as such.

< Message edited by xssve -- 3/25/2010 1:07:06 PM >

(in reply to lucylucy)

Post #: 75

RE: The Nine Degrees of Submission - 3/25/2010 5:45:22 PM

cloudboy

Posts: 7306
Joined: 12/14/2005
Status: offline

quote:

a set of relative social constraints regarding levels of commitment

I agree entirely. What happens, tho, is that when the bottoms, submissive, slaves et. al. show boundary initiatives -- they often earn negative tags. I mean where else is a dom/domme going to project frustration at the limits of BDSM power?

When the King's plan goes awry, its always those disloyal subjects who are at fault.

Here's an interesting comparison:

A good communist back in the USSR under Stalin: (1) was not religious; (2) did not own too much property; (3) was not critical of the state; (4) was a party member; (5) didn't abuse alcohol; (6) didn't make friends with foreigners; (7) was not a "careerist;" (8) did not marry or have close contact with the petty bourgeoisie; (9) never demonstrated "excessive personal habits;" (10) abstained from sexual license.

One could view the above list as either a series of ideals or as fault-finding checklist. My vote is the latter. (The mantle of this "culture war" shit has now been picked up by the right-wingers in the US.)

(1) Must be "patriotic;" (2) foreigners should not be afforded legal protections -- that's "coddling the enemy,"; (3) sexual license is immoral; (4) cannot associate with with communists, socialists, atheists, or gays; (5) party values are absolute -- bipartisanship is akin to date-rape; (6) political opponents are evil; (7) et. al.

(in reply to xssve)

Post #: 76

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