Religion and me

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Termyn8or -> Religion and me (3/24/2010 8:27:33 AM)
I profess to fear very little, and I think that a true statement. Even when I was younger though for a different reason - that I thought I was immortal, perhaps I was. Unlike many who get "gunshy" I got into a very bad car wreck that could've easily killed me, I rolled a van across a golf course. But I was back in the saddle the next day. Speaking of gunshy I have been shot in the face, and after I got out of the hospital I played around with guns right away. Women on the other hand........ But I remember fear and the strongest memory I have of it was when as a child I was exposed to religious types. Always want to take you to church, get you to accept their Lord Jesus Christ into my heart. Wait a minute here. We are talking around ten years old and we are talking about someone who has never recited the Pledge Of Allegiance on moral grounds, even in kindergarden. I feared that they would get me to do it somehow. I felt like a trap had been set for me and I was on pins and needles not to fall into it. The whole idea was appalling, even at that age. Part of it was the fact that I was being asked to accept a leader who I knew practically nothing about, and I didn't take kindly to any type of leadership in the first place. Now I find this place with people who have similar opinions about religion. What I don't know is why. Years later I tried to accept Christianity, but I just couldn't do it. While I admit that if everyone lived by those tenets the world would be wonderful, but they don't. If I were ever ready that was the time but it just didn't happen. I still could not accept universal forgiveness. I don't think it's right for some guy who maims someone to be forgiven by someone who lived two thousand years ago, that believe that forgivness can only come from those who have been wronged. I guess you're not in a really good position there if you kill someone. I don't fear loaded guns pointed at me, driving at 150 MPH, fire, explosives, anything, but giving up my self. That's how it looked to me and some may wonder how one can not fear death without some sort of faith. And then "they" tried to convert me in my twenties. They failed in their argument and resorted to "What if it is true ?". That sunk their ship because if I were to accept it because it might be true, that is the epitome of hypocracy. If you truly believe, more power to you. But don't just talk the talk, walk the walk. Over the years I've known many Christians, Jews, Mormons and a couple of Moslems here and there, and I have found absolutely no correlation between their religious beliefs and their morality or concern for the human race. It is totally illogical to me. Even the best argument they can muster, which is based on the premise that this life is actually preparation for the afterlife, holds no water in my view. If we are to prepare, well dammit prepare ! That means actions in this life count, and faith logically does not trump all. With some, I think if I gave it some effort I could destroy their faith, but I won't do that. It might be true and what I do with my "soul" is my business. I have no right to impose my views on them and cost them their key to the gates of heaven or whatever they seek. Now I, like many have become somewhat intolerant of evangelicals. They are here to tell me that my belief system is wrong, and I better listen to them lest I burn in hell. Well I have been threatened before and it just doesn't work. They don't come here anymore. The olman fixed that, and he didn't even have to answer the doorbell naked. The Mormons came. Well what he did was to read the book of Mormon and shoved their own "scripture" down their throat. Now I am fairly cognizant of what made me what I am today, what a piece of work I might add. I am defiant to the end, and am pretty sure I will remain so. But what I don't understand is my aversion to these things at such a young age. Heredity or very early influences ? I figure it must be one or the other, possibly both. I wonder if others had such apprehension for religion at such a young age. Did anyone ? From day one I was so reluctant to walk into a church that you would think that I ran out the door into heavy traffic during my baptism. Now I can go to weddings and funerals, but I don't like it at all. T

Aneirin -> RE: Religion and me (3/24/2010 12:17:43 PM)
Religion to me implies organisation and control, I don't like organisation and control is only given to people whom I have personally granted that to via much and deep thought. Anything else, I rebel against. Spirituality is a word I prefer and with spirituality, that is an independant and personal thing, what you believe is your own to ponder and if it gives comfort, why the hell not.

Musicmystery -> RE: Religion and me (3/24/2010 12:48:11 PM)
quote: I profess to fear very little, and I think that a true statement. One day, if you ever stop drinking, you'll find that's just not true.

Termyn8or -> RE: Religion and me (3/24/2010 7:26:23 PM)
"Religion to me implies organisation and control" Maybe that's what actually bugs me about it. To me it infers conformity. That is an anaethma to me, as I doubt I could conform to anything rigidly structured. I couldn't stand school, I don't like hospital or jails, and I mean on a different level than some, even though I would deal with it, it's just the thought of it. If you want to talk about drinking, I would rather walk down to the local hole in the wall rather than a place that looks like a stadium. However I do not have agoraphobia. I just think when you get too many people in a room the quality of conversation suffers. Plus I can smoke in the bar down the street, hell I ain't never movin' ! Perhaps I am a conformophobic, that is I fear conformity. Or perhaps I fear trying and being unable to do so ? I'll have to give that some thought, but I'll say this. One of my favorite videos is Pink Flotd - Brick In The Wall. If you've ever seen it you probably know what I mean. Whatever the author's intent, it expresses me. More later, people here. T

kdsub -> RE: Religion and me (3/24/2010 7:58:52 PM)
To me religion is very personal...my thoughts are between God and me...my actions are not guided by a book but the book matches my thoughts on what I believe is the proper way to treat others. I don't feel controlled or restrained by my religion... it is just a good way to live...with hope, consideration, charity, and compassion for all. Butch

GotSteel -> RE: Religion and me (3/24/2010 8:49:56 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub but the book matches my thoughts on what I believe is the proper way to treat others. Um....oh crap. If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife, or you intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other gods, whom you and your fathers have not known, gods of any other nations, near at hand or far away, from one end of the earth to the other: do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon him, to spare or shield him, but kill him. Your hand shall be the first raised to slay him; the rest of the people shall join in with you. You shall stone him to death, because he sought to lead you astray from the Lord, your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, that place of slavery. And all Israel, hearing of this, shall fear and never do such evil as this in your midst. (Deuteronomy 13:7-12 NAB)

Kirata -> RE: Religion and me (3/24/2010 9:44:27 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: GotSteel oh crap... Deuteronomy 13:7-12 NAB TPWA K.

belladevine -> RE: Religion and me (3/24/2010 11:03:38 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: GotSteel quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub but the book matches my thoughts on what I believe is the proper way to treat others. Um....oh crap. If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife, or you intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other gods, whom you and your fathers have not known, gods of any other nations, near at hand or far away, from one end of the earth to the other: do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon him, to spare or shield him, but kill him. Your hand shall be the first raised to slay him; the rest of the people shall join in with you. You shall stone him to death, because he sought to lead you astray from the Lord, your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, that place of slavery. And all Israel, hearing of this, shall fear and never do such evil as this in your midst. (Deuteronomy 13:7-12 NAB) Excellent passage Bro! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xLEX037I5QY&feature=channel

Elisabella -> RE: Religion and me (3/24/2010 11:09:15 PM)
Yeah I personally have a problem with the whole "offer your virgin daughters to be gang raped and earn a place in heaven" thing more than this...ancient times were pretty nasty.

mydestiny2043 -> RE: Religion and me (3/25/2010 12:25:35 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Termyn8or this place with people who have similar opinions about religion. What I don't know is why. Why not? If it brings them comfort,or hope,or just pease what difference does it make ?They are not the ones to tried to force it upon you when you were a child. Just because you can't accept it for what you think it stands for.You're against conformity but basically what you're saying is because you don't believe nobody else should either because of your argument?Wow are you serious? Years later I tried to accept Christianity, but I just couldn't do it. While I admit that if everyone lived by those tenets the world would be wonderful, but they don't. If I were ever ready that was the time but it just didn't happen. I still could not accept universal forgiveness. I don't think it's right for some guy who maims someone to be forgiven by someone who lived two thousand years ago, that believe that forgivness can only come from those who have been wronged. I guess you're not in a really good position there if you kill someone. I don't fear loaded guns pointed at me, driving at 150 MPH, fire, explosives, anything, but giving up my self. That's how it looked to me and some may wonder how one can not fear death without some sort of faith. And then "they" tried to convert me in my twenties. They failed in their argument and resorted to "What if it is true ?". That sunk their ship because if I were to accept it because it might be true, that is the epitome of hypocracy. If you truly believe, more power to you. But don't just talk the talk, walk the walk. oK you lost me,because you don't fear death they shouldn't or couldn't possibly have a belief system other than yours?I could thin k of a few reasons that you don't fear the things most humans do but I won't go there because thats your choice even if it sounds a little out there. Over the years I've known many Christians, Jews, Mormons and a couple of Moslems here and there, and I have found absolutely no correlation between their religious beliefs and their morality or concern for the human race. So why does it bother you so much that someone else can?And what gives you the right to your holier than thou attitude that your way of thinking is the right way but theirs is full of shit. Talk about being presumptuous you take the cake. It is totally illogical to me. Even the best argument they can muster, which is based on the premise that this life is actually preparation for the afterlife, holds no water in my view. If we are to prepare, well dammit prepare ! That means actions in this life count, and faith logically does not trump all. You like every other human being on the planet is entitled to their opinion,and don't get me wrong I'm not knocking you for that,but in my opinion you went way past that,and crossed the line. With some, I think if I gave it some effort I could destroy their faith, but I won't do that. It might be true and what I do with my "soul" is my business. I have no right to impose my views on them and cost them their key to the gates of heaven or whatever they seek. But that's exactly what you are doing is trying to impose your views as being "the right views". Now I, like many have become somewhat intolerant of evangelicals. They are here to tell me that my belief system is wrong, and I better listen to them lest I burn in hell. Well I have been threatened before and it just doesn't work. Then tell to step off and walk away,but don't then turn around and to the exact same thing to others and their belief system that your complaing others did to you. I'm of the mind set that people can believe whatever they need to in order to get through this thing we call life,As long as they don't hurt anyone else or try and take that same right away from others who believe something else .If it brings them peace and serenity more power to them. Now I am fairly cognizant of what made me what I am today, what a piece of work I might add. I am defiant to the end, and am pretty sure I will remain so. But what I don't understand is my aversion to these things at such a young age. Heredity or very early influences ? I figure it must be one or the other, possibly both. I wonder if others had such apprehension for religion at such a young age. Did anyone ? From day one I was so reluctant to walk into a church that you would think that I ran out the door into heavy traffic during my baptism. Now I can go to weddings and funerals, but I don't like it at all. T

eyesopened -> RE: Religion and me (3/25/2010 5:25:51 AM)
No one, can destroy my faith. I don't have faith because someone told me to. I don't have faith because of what is written in books. I don't have faith because of fear. I have faith because it is a positive way for me to live my life. I am not concerned about people who have no faith. Their lives aren't mine. I am concerned about anyone who would try to force me to believe the way they do. For me, personally "sin" is in the motive, not in the act itself. My observation is that zealots of any sort are motivated by hate. I see the Old Testament for what it is, a collection of books written by and for a specific group of people, and yes it includes the methods they took to form a people out of a loose collection of rebel slaves. They did some horrible things on their journey but there is nothing in those books that requires me to do what they did. There is some wisdom in those books as well and we can say the same about other anthropological writings of other ancient people. I don't believe in heaven or hell as some have described them. I believe in positive and negative. I see so much negativity in a lot of what people on these boards write when they talk about religion. I get the impression they are sad or angry or just not living an abundant life. I'm not saying faith in any diety is the key. You can live a positive life without a god. Why not just do that instead of being angry that there are people with faith?

belladevine -> RE: Religion and me (3/25/2010 7:22:20 AM)
FAITH is for those who do not KNOW. Religion sucks the life out of every body and mind.

mydestiny2043 -> RE: Religion and me (3/25/2010 7:50:38 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: eyesopened No one, can destroy my faith. Exactly,that's why I find it so ironic. Especially here where everyday you read about tolerating/respecting everyones kink.And they expect tolerance if nothing else.But for some reason when it comes to someone elses religion that concept flies out the window. I see so much negativity in a lot of what people on these boards write when they talk about religion. I get the impression they are sad or angry or just not living an abundant life. I'm not saying faith in any diety is the key. You can live a positive life without a god. Why not just do that instead of being angry that there are people with faith? The only thing I can come up with and this is just my opinion is that people for the most part fear what they don't understand. It threatens them some how.

Termyn8or -> RE: Religion and me (3/25/2010 8:11:00 AM)
eyes, I had no intention to mess with anyone's faith or put anyone down. If you have real faith noone can tear it down anyway. The religious types who irk me are the hypocrites, those who do dastardly deeds all week and think they can go to church and all is forgiven. Or perhaps they go for show. I made no such accusation here, just to be clear. Since I have no faith in the conventional sense I am in the dark as to how one gains real faith. One's religious education might start at a very impressionable age. But does that actually gain them faith, or simply indoctrinate them ? Does true faith maybe come later, after introspection or some event ? I mean when you are young and they start teaching you about Moses, apple trees and all that, I don't think that instills faith, but it may open the door so to speak. And is there such a thing as too much faith ? My ex-boss, a good guy really but a bit wierd. He attributes his success in business to God. He got an idea years ago and made a bunch of money, and thanks God for telling him what to do. I think that's going a bit too far. I also think that if one externalizes their success, they can then externalize their failure. That doesn't work for me at all. Actually I don't think that my aversion is to faith itself, but to the construct of religion in general. Becoming a part of something over which I have no control. For example I am much more comfortable in the driver's seat if we are to race around at 100+ MPH like I used to. I never used to loan out that car as it was a menace to society, and I rarely if ever let anyone even drive it. I don't like others having that kind of control over my destiny. A phobia is an irrational fear, so since I have chosen not to have faith the question is why ? I reject authority and structure, are those so closely related to faith ? What is it about this whole thing that made me avoid it like the plague ? Believe it or not I actually do believe there is a God, but I don't think he talks much. And my concept differs greatly from any known religion. I am not quite sure if that qualifies me as an atheist or not. If God talks He probably does it with actions, but that in no way is meant to construe that I fall in with those crazoids who believe for example, that Katrina was God's punishment for letting Gays in the military. If God is truly omnipotent and wants to micromanage the world, He could just give heart attacks to the "right" people. All in all, there are of course more questions than answers. What turned me off to this ? I swear it was like a phobia. But a rational phobia is not a phobia, so was it or not ? T

kdsub -> RE: Religion and me (3/25/2010 8:48:33 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: GotSteel quote: ORIGINAL: kdsub but the book matches my thoughts on what I believe is the proper way to treat others. Um....oh crap. If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife, or you intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other gods, whom you and your fathers have not known, gods of any other nations, near at hand or far away, from one end of the earth to the other: do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon him, to spare or shield him, but kill him. Your hand shall be the first raised to slay him; the rest of the people shall join in with you. You shall stone him to death, because he sought to lead you astray from the Lord, your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, that place of slavery. And all Israel, hearing of this, shall fear and never do such evil as this in your midst. (Deuteronomy 13:7-12 NAB) I've a good arm...don't get too close...lol Butch

Silence8 -> RE: Religion and me (3/25/2010 10:16:33 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Musicmystery quote: I profess to fear very little, and I think that a true statement. One day, if you ever stop drinking, you'll find that's just not true. dismissive'd

subfever -> RE: Religion and me (3/25/2010 10:24:35 AM)
quote: Over the years I've known many Christians, Jews, Mormons and a couple of Moslems here and there, and I have found absolutely no correlation between their religious beliefs and their morality or concern for the human race. This has been a common observation for me too, though I wouldn't put it in absolute terms.

Silence8 -> RE: Religion and me (3/25/2010 10:28:49 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Termyn8or eyes, I had no intention to mess with anyone's faith or put anyone down. If you have real faith noone can tear it down anyway. The religious types who irk me are the hypocrites, those who do dastardly deeds all week and think they can go to church and all is forgiven. Or perhaps they go for show. I made no such accusation here, just to be clear. Since I have no faith in the conventional sense I am in the dark as to how one gains real faith. One's religious education might start at a very impressionable age. But does that actually gain them faith, or simply indoctrinate them ? Does true faith maybe come later, after introspection or some event ? I mean when you are young and they start teaching you about Moses, apple trees and all that, I don't think that instills faith, but it may open the door so to speak. And is there such a thing as too much faith ? My ex-boss, a good guy really but a bit wierd. He attributes his success in business to God. He got an idea years ago and made a bunch of money, and thanks God for telling him what to do. I think that's going a bit too far. I also think that if one externalizes their success, they can then externalize their failure. That doesn't work for me at all. Actually I don't think that my aversion is to faith itself, but to the construct of religion in general. Becoming a part of something over which I have no control. For example I am much more comfortable in the driver's seat if we are to race around at 100+ MPH like I used to. I never used to loan out that car as it was a menace to society, and I rarely if ever let anyone even drive it. I don't like others having that kind of control over my destiny. A phobia is an irrational fear, so since I have chosen not to have faith the question is why ? I reject authority and structure, are those so closely related to faith ? What is it about this whole thing that made me avoid it like the plague ? Believe it or not I actually do believe there is a God, but I don't think he talks much. And my concept differs greatly from any known religion. I am not quite sure if that qualifies me as an atheist or not. If God talks He probably does it with actions, but that in no way is meant to construe that I fall in with those crazoids who believe for example, that Katrina was God's punishment for letting Gays in the military. If God is truly omnipotent and wants to micromanage the world, He could just give heart attacks to the "right" people. All in all, there are of course more questions than answers. What turned me off to this ? I swear it was like a phobia. But a rational phobia is not a phobia, so was it or not ? T These are good points. I second the objection to religious hypocrisy, though you could argue that these types, without religion, would find somewhere else to place this hypocrisy and its accompanying sense of superiority, e.g., science, 'health' (think of the secondhand smoke psychopaths), organic foods, etc. But, yeah, unfortunately religious's continued prevalence owes mostly to psychology, and in a very ambiguous (not-so-great) way. Faith in-and-of-itself is an extremely ambiguous construct. My theory is that non-faith is an impossible position -- everyone has faith in something at least insofar as their everyday lives imply a whole complicated set of logical and epistemological constructs. So what 'the faithful' do is take the ordinary, give it a name, and then use it to divide themselves from 'the other'. The word that Veblen would use would be 'invidious'. Faith, religion, and cultural more generally all possess strong invidious tendencies. Generally, I find that religious morality usually overlies some more profound immorality. In this sense Dostoevsky was exactly wrong -- with (a symbiotic) God, everything is permitted.

NorthernGent -> RE: Religion and me (3/25/2010 2:04:22 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: belladevine FAITH is for those who do not KNOW. Religion sucks the life out of every body and mind. Considering religion is a very human construct - it is the mind. Nothing wrong with religion - it's the people with the one true path to salvation (politics/religion/whatever) who will cause you some serious damage were they ever to get into a position of power. In fact - you may enjoy their company.

Brain -> RE: Religion and me (3/25/2010 2:18:26 PM)
I was introduced to religion by my parents so there was no apprehension. I don't believe there is any such thing as an afterlife. The promise of an afterlife is something used to control a person's behavior. I think they use fear to get you to believe. The greatest sin is to not believe and if you don't believe you will burn in hell forever and ever and ever; ridiculous. I don't even think the Pope believes in God. Look at the cover-up of pedophiles he was involved with it. I don't think a person who believes in God would cover-up to protect pedophiles.

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