RE: chastity and forced femme (Full Version)

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Venatrix -> RE: chastity and forced femme (3/27/2010 7:22:14 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: hardbodysub

In all of your examples, the issue is with the activity, not the fact that it is "forced".


By that logic, if the issue is with the activity and not with the fact that it is forced, you are saying that being feminised in and of itself is distasteful. If you're not saying that, then being 'forced' IS the issue. Which is it?



KITTYLECTRO -> RE: chastity and forced femme (3/27/2010 7:48:50 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rochsub2009

I just want to make it clear I have nothing defamatory to say about you. 

Even though our interaction has been limited, it is obvious you are polite and well spoken.

I can see how my comments to cloudboy may have given you the wrong impression, so I consider it my responsibility to correct this.

*Edited to add you have my apologies if you thought I was calling you names.



Rochsub2009 -> RE: chastity and forced femme (3/27/2010 9:09:47 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: KITTYLECTRO

I just want to make it clear I have nothing defamatory to say about you. 

Even though our interaction has been limited, it is obvious you are polite and well spoken.

I can see how my comments to cloudboy may have given you the wrong impression, so I consider it my responsibility to correct this.

*Edited to add you have my apologies if you thought I was calling you names.



Thank you, Kitty.  i appreciate that very much.  i somehow got pulled into the center of things during this thread, but no worries.  i look forward to interacting with you in the future.  Hopefully, we'll be on the same side next time.  [;)]



VaguelyCurious -> RE: chastity and forced femme (3/27/2010 11:58:53 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: hardbodysub

In all of your examples, the issue is with the activity, not the fact that it is "forced".


That's true-but I do note that in a lot of cases of men looking for forced femme, there does seem to be this idea that the activity makes them less, or makes them weaker.

I have never met a T-girl with that attitude, and for me that's the difference; if someone wants to get all gussied up in their finery and wear shoes with heels longer than my *feet* because it makes them feel *liberated* and *sexy*, I'm all for it-I know some sexy motherfucker T-girls, y'know?

If someone wants to be forced into suspenders and panties because it's humiliating? I don't find that attractive. It doesn't make them bad people, but it makes them people whose kink I don't want to go anywhere near.



hardbodysub -> RE: chastity and forced femme (3/28/2010 9:40:16 PM)

I also understand what you've written, and agree with much of it. You're certainly entitled to your preferences and feelings about it.

However, I have seen several women (dominants in particular) contend that a forced feminization fetish is obviously based on the idea that being female is demeaning, and I think that this notion is too simplistic. Being a male forced to dress as a woman can be humiliating without any negative connotation toward being female. A male who doesn't identify as female or transvestite is definitely crossing into into an area considered taboo when he is feminized. It could make him feel vulnerable in much the same way that nakedness can. If exposed to the outside world, it would be embarrassing to him at the least, regardless of whether he considers the genders equal or not. He might also find it strangely erotic and exciting in ways he doesn't quite understand, and there we start getting into the belief that he really wants to do it, but needs to be "forced" to relieve himself of the guilt. But who cares, really? It's just not inherently insulting to the feminine gender.

Who cares why he or she does or doesn't like it? Like it, then do it; don't like it, then don't do it.




SweetDommes -> RE: chastity and forced femme (3/28/2010 9:54:35 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: hardbodysub


quote:

ORIGINAL: SweetDommes

The fact of the matter is that the OP did get back answers that were informative and not just ridiculing him, yet he still got defensive. I stand by my statement that if he wasn't fishing for wank material (even if he does have other reasons behind it, I believe that the wank factor is over 50% of why he asked what he did, how he did), then he would have responded like so many others with "sorry, I didn't mean to come across that way."

And interestingly enough, although not surprisingly, my other points in both of my posts were completely ignored ... by you, hardbody, and by the person I posed a question to.


The fact of the matter is that I don't care about your other points. They're irrelevant in regard to my comment, which was simply refuting the assertion that any defensive-looking response always implies guilt, that "innocent" people don't "get huffy". I see it here all the time. Someone responds to an OP in a way that the OP feels is insulting, or an unwarranted accusation. Then the OP's indignant response is pointed to as proof of guilt.

It's a great way to win an argument, isn't it? The other person isn't allowed to respond in denial of the accusation, or else it proves they're guilty. An innocent person has no recourse at all under this twisted logic.


I don't believe that they are irrelevant ... but whatever. His attitude wasn't one of just denial, it was one that 99% of the time is one of "protesting too much" I've seen people deny that they are looking for wank-fodder and I've believed them ... the OP, I don't. *shrugs* think what you want, you will anyway - but you aren't really paying attention to what I'm saying. It's not the denial, itself, that makes me think he was looking for wank-fodder, it was how he denied it. Accusing us all of ignoring his question (which it hadn't been ignored - although he ignored some questions posed to him) and being shitty even though he had gotten some decent answers.



SweetDommes -> RE: chastity and forced femme (3/28/2010 9:56:37 PM)

My issue with people wanting "forced" anything, is that, if you want it, it's not "forced" ... just admit what you want and move on. I don't care what the "forced" is, it's silly to call it forced when it's obviously not.



VaguelyCurious -> RE: chastity and forced femme (3/29/2010 2:17:15 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: hardbodysub

However, I have seen several women (dominants in particular) contend that a forced feminization fetish is obviously based on the idea that being female is demeaning, and I think that this notion is too simplistic. Being a male forced to dress as a woman can be humiliating without any negative connotation toward being female. A male who doesn't identify as female or transvestite is definitely crossing into into an area considered taboo when he is feminized. It could make him feel vulnerable in much the same way that nakedness can. If exposed to the outside world, it would be embarrassing to him at the least, regardless of whether he considers the genders equal or not.


I'll accept that not every sub into forced femme views it with negative connotations. But many of the subs who start forced femme threads do use demeaning language-they do talk about lowering themselves and debasing themselves, and I think we get jaded-we're not perfect, hbs :-P

quote:

He might also find it strangely erotic and exciting in ways he doesn't quite understand, and there we start getting into the belief that he really wants to do it, but needs to be "forced" to relieve himself of the guilt.
That's an issue I didn't really adress in my last post, but it's also a big deal from this side of the kneel. I can't speak for others, but I personally want a sub who is in touch with their desires. I want a sub who displays enthusiasm and enjoyment-not a sub who has to be 'forced' to admit that they want whatever it is that they want.

That's part of the reason nobody ever has a go at Otters, I think (aside from other things like his personality and his attitude, yadda yadda...:P)-you can feel his enthusiasm for dressing just zoom off the page. It's not that there is some massive double standard that he's on one side of and the wank-thread guys are on the other, it's that he's clear on his motivations and in touch with his desires.

'Forced' play places a burden on the D-type; in order to 'relieve your guilt' you're placing something on *us*. And that's fine if we *decide* to push whoever it is we're playing with outside their comfort zone. But if someone turns up with their panties and suspenders and says 'force me into these', then to me it would feel like a weight on the dynamic that I don't want to have to deal with.



OttersSwim -> RE: chastity and forced femme (3/29/2010 7:46:46 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: VaguelyCurious

That's part of the reason nobody ever has a go at Otters, I think (aside from other things like his personality and his attitude, yadda yadda...:P)-you can feel his enthusiasm for dressing just zoom off the page. It's not that there is some massive double standard that he's on one side of and the wank-thread guys are on the other, it's that he's clear on his motivations and in touch with his desires.

'Forced' play places a burden on the D-type; in order to 'relieve your guilt' you're placing something on *us*. And that's fine if we *decide* to push whoever it is we're playing with outside their comfort zone. But if someone turns up with their panties and suspenders and says 'force me into these', then to me it would feel like a weight on the dynamic that I don't want to have to deal with.



I am grateful that you Ladies see the positive aspect of being a girlie boy that I do my best to represent.  I am not actually nearly so put together in my head or in my heart.  Everything that the Ladies here -do- have a go at in the realm of Forced Femme and males being girlie - I have been that exact guy at one point or another in my life.

And so let me put in a word in FAVOR of Forced Femme.

Our societies do not easily embrace difference. 

Just as women are put into societal boxes of expectations on roles and duties, so it is for men as well.  But there is a difference.  Women are generally encouraged and empowered to be independent, strong in mind, body and will.  Such traits encouraged in the right women can lead to a Dominant Female.  And so here are a bunch of you who have been raised with a supportive ethic, or in whom your natural strength has burst forth and society gives women "permission" in most cases to be that way.   So even though we are generally in a "fringe" of society at large, what a Dominant Woman is doing would generally be looked on in a favorable light - you are in charge, you exhibit your strength.  That is good!

Men are put into those same boxes of independence, strength, responsibility, etc.  There is NOTHING in the male socialization that EVER encourages a man to be meek, yielding, or submissive - except maybe to GOD.

And so, having those feelings is at polar opposite of what a man is taught in every aspect of his life that he is -supposed to be-.  The implication is that if he is -not- these things, then he is -failing-.  Most men must make a journey to submission and experience an evolution of feelings that lead to changes in behaviors and actions.  That journey can be very very hard...some never make it.

Now imagine being a man and trying to get to a safe environment where you could be that submissive person inside you.  The giant mass of your upbringing, and the expectations of society screaming at you that what you are doing is not what a man is "supposed to do/be".  Lay on top of that, feelings that lead a male to a feminine place and it is a wonder to me that most males in that place don't just burst into fire on the spot.  We'd all see these black spots on the ground and say "Oh, there goes another one..."

In order to get to that "safe place", that "submissive place", a lot of guys need a gateway.  And for many, that gateway is "being forced".  It does not matter that they want it and that they are not really being forced.  What they want is a haven away from the screaming expectations that they can get to a place where they can safely feel submissive.

I have said before that there is an evolution going on here, and if a Dominant Lady is ever going to entertain the thought of having a girlie boy serve her, She will need to evaluate where he is in that evolution.  It is true that there are some who equate femininity with weakness and submission and thereby evoke that squick factor in a female that says "Wait a minute...I am feminine, so what do you think that says about me?!" 

I would ask that people realize that just as it takes males some time and evolution to get to a place where they can let go their ego and those screaming expectations, so too does it take a new person time and evolution to realize that submission is not weakness, but strength.  So as a Dominant Female, you may not pick that person up, but you might take the time to enlighten them that submission is not weakness, nor is being feminine.

So yea, being forced is a sort of trope, and it makes people roll their eyes a bit.  But for some males, it is where they are on that journey to submission - looking for a gateway to safety that allows them to get to that place of submission.

It changes nothing about whether having a girlie boy in your service is your thing or not, but hopefully it fosters more understanding of the subject and concepts of submission in the male person.  A difficult road for most, to be sure.



Andalusite -> RE: chastity and forced femme (3/29/2010 8:07:09 AM)

Hardbodysub, that's just it, I *DO* feel it's inherently insulting to the female gender for a man to claim that he wants to be feminised in order to make him feel weak, slutty, and degraded. I've dated a couple of occasional cross-dressers, helped some drag queens dress, and initiated feminising with a couple of other men. I don't understand why anyone would feel guilty about it, and I'd feel stupid and awkward calling someone a "panty boy," "slut," "pussy" and so forth. If he's embarrassed without my calling him names, that might be ok, depending on the scene, depending on what else was going on with our relationship and interaction, and so forth. I've written about a few possible humiliation scenarios that I would find intriguing and acceptable, I'm fine with a guy wearing lingerie or skirts or whatever, I generally don't think it's a big deal. When a guy wants to be namecalled over being feminine, that pushes my buttons in a negative way, and when I was looking, I wasn't open to that at all, and yes, I *DID* find it very insulting and sexist.

VC and SweetDommes, I've participated in "force" play on both sides, and it can be really hot, and doesn't at all mean that the person doesn't like it. However, the kind I like involves playfighting and wrestling and being (or pretending to be) physically overpowered, not being called stupid, sexist names.



hardbodysub -> RE: chastity and forced femme (3/29/2010 8:09:40 AM)

quote:

'Forced' play places a burden on the D-type; in order to 'relieve your guilt' you're placing something on *us*.

It's not a burden if you enjoy control and forced activity. If you don't enjoy it, then you've got no obligation to do it. If the sub needs it, and you don't like it, then you're obviously not a good match, and need to find different partners. This isn't limited to forced activities; it's true of anything. Doing anything you don't enjoy seems like a burden.

I mentioned the guilt issue merely as an example of another motivation behind forced femme besides the idea that femaleness is somehow demeaning. You probably don't really mean it that way, but the quote above seems to assume (as I've seen many people say in other threads) that this is true of all forced play. It's not. Just like the earlier suggestion that a forced femme fetish implied that femaleness was somehow less or demeaning, for some it might, but for many it doesn't.

quote:

... if someone turns up with their panties and suspenders and says 'force me into these', then to me it would feel like a weight on the dynamic that I don't want to have to deal with.

Yes, that's a pretty clear example of topping from the bottom which I find a bit repellent myself. Frankly, I think that only a complete idiot would actually demand that you fulfill his desire. It seems rather obvious that if he has a strong desire, he might mention it so you are aware of it, but it's up to you to decide whether you want to go there or not.. But again, no matter how he presents it, if you don't want to have to deal with it, you don't have to.

Out of curiosity, how would you feel if a sub showed up with manacles, and asked you to use them on him? What if he mentioned a desire for any other forced activity? Or merely to be forced, without mentioning any specific activity? Would that automatically turn you off?




Sanguinarian -> RE: chastity and forced femme (3/29/2010 8:21:31 AM)

I dunno about anyone else, but if a submissive wants me to force femme them, it is one hell of a turn off. I like impulse and spontaneity and improvisation. Having someone say Oh I want you to force me to act this way only garners my irritation. If I want to do this to someone, then I will do so, but having someone ask me to 'force' them ( an oxymoron if I have ever heard one ) they get a resounding No.

It's a fetish, guys. Either do it or don't, but take responsibility for it.



hardbodysub -> RE: chastity and forced femme (3/29/2010 8:25:17 AM)

quote:

I *DO* feel it's inherently insulting to the female gender for a man to claim that he wants to be feminised in order to make him feel weak, slutty, and degraded. ... When a guy wants to be namecalled over being feminine, that pushes my buttons in a negative way, and when I was looking, I wasn't open to that at all, and yes, I *DID* find it very insulting and sexist.


I wouldn't disagree at all with that. It's perfectly rational to find it insulting and sexist, if he claims that he wants it "in order to make him feel weak, slutty, and degraded", or if he wants to be verbally humiliated in a way which suggests that being female is somehow demeaning. Forced feminization does not necessarily include either of these, and that is why I said it is not inherently insulting to the female gender.



hardbodysub -> RE: chastity and forced femme (3/29/2010 8:29:20 AM)

quote:

It's a fetish, guys. Either do it or don't, but take responsibility for it.


I think you missed something. Sometimes the force IS the fetish, just as much, or more than, the feminization. Having a desire for force does NOT equate to a failure to acknowledge your fetish.



Sanguinarian -> RE: chastity and forced femme (3/29/2010 8:37:35 AM)

I missed nothing.

If force is the fetish, then do it. I merely stated my own opinion on the fetish. If the OP likes force, then do something about it, don't talk about it, just get it done.



LadyPact -> RE: chastity and forced femme (3/29/2010 10:33:29 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: hardbodysub
Out of curiosity, how would you feel if a sub showed up with manacles, and asked you to use them on him? What if he mentioned a desire for any other forced activity? Or merely to be forced, without mentioning any specific activity? Would that automatically turn you off?



I know this question was asked of someone else, but I wanted to offer My view.

The general answer to your questions, in My opinion, is yes.  The areas you've listed above are where the line is drawn for Me between expressing a type of play that might be enjoyed and what can be considered topping from the bottom.  A very large part of how that is determined is the expectation of what will happen as an immediate response.  That's the difference between being put upon and entering into an activity because it is something that I've decided that I want to do.

In your case of showing up with manacles or mentioning that someone is interested in a specific activity, I think that's great!  I want to know those things.  However, that doesn't automatically translate that he is going to receive them.  Even better, it doesn't automatically mean that he is going to receive them immediately.  As clip can attest, of the numerous play related items that he has brought Me over the years, are given to Me to do with as I see fit.  Generally, this means that it is put in with the other toys and it isn't brought out until I've asked him to do so.  The same goes for something play related which is more a concept, rather than a material thing.  If he has an idea, naturally, I want to hear that.  Once I've listened to it, what I've formed in My mind then goes to what I call the mental filing cabinet.  I'm going to pull it out and use it at a later date.  Again, this happens only on My terms and when I feel I have an interest in the activity.  It's not ever going to be something that specifically turns Me off.  In those cases, I completely agree with your earlier comment that people have found an area of incompatibility.  At that point, that person needs to decide how important such a thing really is to them.




hardbodysub -> RE: chastity and forced femme (3/29/2010 12:06:24 PM)

After reading your entire post, i think that we hold pretty much the same opinion on this. Except that it seems to me that since you're not turned off by a sub merely communicating his interests and desires, and I didn't imply any demand or expectation that you would indulge his desires immediately (or at all, for that matter), then your general answer to my questions actually is no.



hardbodysub -> RE: chastity and forced femme (3/29/2010 12:33:50 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: SweetDommes

quote:

ORIGINAL: hardbodysub


quote:

ORIGINAL: SweetDommes

The fact of the matter is that the OP did get back answers that were informative and not just ridiculing him, yet he still got defensive. I stand by my statement that if he wasn't fishing for wank material (even if he does have other reasons behind it, I believe that the wank factor is over 50% of why he asked what he did, how he did), then he would have responded like so many others with "sorry, I didn't mean to come across that way."

And interestingly enough, although not surprisingly, my other points in both of my posts were completely ignored ... by you, hardbody, and by the person I posed a question to.


The fact of the matter is that I don't care about your other points. They're irrelevant in regard to my comment, which was simply refuting the assertion that any defensive-looking response always implies guilt, that "innocent" people don't "get huffy". I see it here all the time. Someone responds to an OP in a way that the OP feels is insulting, or an unwarranted accusation. Then the OP's indignant response is pointed to as proof of guilt.

It's a great way to win an argument, isn't it? The other person isn't allowed to respond in denial of the accusation, or else it proves they're guilty. An innocent person has no recourse at all under this twisted logic.


I don't believe that they are irrelevant ... but whatever. His attitude wasn't one of just denial, it was one that 99% of the time is one of "protesting too much" I've seen people deny that they are looking for wank-fodder and I've believed them ... the OP, I don't. *shrugs* think what you want, you will anyway - but you aren't really paying attention to what I'm saying. It's not the denial, itself, that makes me think he was looking for wank-fodder, it was how he denied it. Accusing us all of ignoring his question (which it hadn't been ignored - although he ignored some questions posed to him) and being shitty even though he had gotten some decent answers.


I paid perfect attention to what you were saying. I simply disagree and/or find your comments irrelevant in regard to my point. From my end, it looks more like you're not paying attention to what I'm saying. Of course, you probably are, it's just not coming across as clear as I would like.

I disagree with you about whether the OP got useful responses. Almost all of them were sarcastic ridicule, and even the couple that had a tidbit of useful advice were pretty arrogant in tone. But that's irrelevant. I disagree with your assertion that "protesting too much" implies guilt. Innocent people are not likely to apologize in response to false accusations; they are just as likely to respond with ire as are the guilty. I don't agree or disagree about whether this particular OP is just fishing for wank fodder, and I don't care. It's irrelevant to my very specific point about how much you can infer about guilt or innocence based on their denial.



LadyPact -> RE: chastity and forced femme (3/29/2010 4:00:57 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: hardbodysub

After reading your entire post, i think that we hold pretty much the same opinion on this. Except that it seems to me that since you're not turned off by a sub merely communicating his interests and desires, and I didn't imply any demand or expectation that you would indulge his desires immediately (or at all, for that matter), then your general answer to my questions actually is no.

Thank you for reading the entire post.  I may or may not have missed something.  [;)]

I feel like we are so close to a meeting of the minds on this, if for no other reason than to understand each other.  We're really not that far apart, with the exception of seeing this as yes or no.

One of the things that you mentioned in your earlier response was compatibility.  This is very key in the way I am looking at the discussion.  In all of the vast possibilities that can possibly fall under the umbrella of kink, each activity falls on a spectrum for each individual somewhere.  Everything from those activities that absolutely excite us to the greatest extent to those things that literally turn us off and do so to such a degree that participating in them has the complete opposite effect.  I'm sure you have certain aspects within BDSM that you know where they fall on that personal line for you.  (We're still agreeing at this point.)

However, if you found someone that, for the lack of better terms, one of her 'must have's' was at the complete other end of the spectrum for you to such depths of hard limits it was impossible for you to do it and get any joy or potential positive from, it is a bad match and you are not compatible.  Now, you have a situation where one person must be willing to give up said activity, or the other person must not only tolerate it, but have it actively in their life.  I'm more than willing to say that I will not indulge in the latter.

So, yes, if clip came to Me and specifically told Me a craving that he found inside of him for forced femme and he felt it was something that he had to have in his life, I would absolutely want him to tell Me that.  At the very same time, that is the moment that we become incompatible.



AAkasha -> RE: chastity and forced femme (3/29/2010 4:15:24 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact


Thank you for reading the entire post.  I may or may not have missed something.  [;)]

I feel like we are so close to a meeting of the minds on this, if for no other reason than to understand each other.  We're really not that far apart, with the exception of seeing this as yes or no.

One of the things that you mentioned in your earlier response was compatibility.  This is very key in the way I am looking at the discussion.  In all of the vast possibilities that can possibly fall under the umbrella of kink, each activity falls on a spectrum for each individual somewhere.  Everything from those activities that absolutely excite us to the greatest extent to those things that literally turn us off and do so to such a degree that participating in them has the complete opposite effect.  I'm sure you have certain aspects within BDSM that you know where they fall on that personal line for you.  (We're still agreeing at this point.)

However, if you found someone that, for the lack of better terms, one of her 'must have's' was at the complete other end of the spectrum for you to such depths of hard limits it was impossible for you to do it and get any joy or potential positive from, it is a bad match and you are not compatible.  Now, you have a situation where one person must be willing to give up said activity, or the other person must not only tolerate it, but have it actively in their life.  I'm more than willing to say that I will not indulge in the latter.

So, yes, if clip came to Me and specifically told Me a craving that he found inside of him for forced femme and he felt it was something that he had to have in his life, I would absolutely want him to tell Me that.  At the very same time, that is the moment that we become incompatible.



I don't want to complicate what is already a pretty "tired" topic and debate: the issue of "forced" anything and why to femdoms it's often a hot button or bone of contention.  But I look at this whole debate, and I know one thing for myself personally: While I don't like to "force" anything, I am all for roleplaying, and I also like some level of "resistance" or at least "uneasiness."  Sometimes when a sub presents that his fetish has a "forced" element to it, he may just be trying to convey that he's not robotic about it (maybe?), not going to roll over like a limp noodle? I am just guessing.   I may be wrong completely.  If he is suggesting that submission to some acts may require some coercion, that's hot to me. If he is suggesting that some of his fantasies make him scared and uneasy but he'd like to give it a try, but to be patient with him, that's hot too.

I think it becomes annoying to femdoms, maybe, when the sub is basically presenting his fantasy as a two-fold thing for us.  One, we have to do act Y to him.  And second, we have to *act* a certain way, we have to *force* him to do it, because by-the-way, the fantasy for him includes us conforming to an idealized stereotype in his head that we are overpowering, militant, unrelenting, or whatever.  "I am into bondage," leaves it up to us if we want to pick up the game and play it on our terms.  "I like forced bondage," implies that we also have to put on a charade for his benefit - basically, now we're being put into a cookie cutter role.  What if I don't want to "force," what if I would rather "seduce?"  What if my mood THAT NIGHT is for him to BEG for bondage?  What about what role *I* like to play as the femdom?

I have a lot of "roles" I like to adopt based on my mood. It may be forced, it may be coerced, it may be seduced, or I may feel like brave willingness and an eagerness to serve.  But what I don't feel like, on any given night, is told that a sub's fantasy is Y and he wants me to execute it in Y manner.  Once he gets into specifics, I start becoming the prop, not the director.

Akasha



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