RE: Forgiveness and Grace.

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RE: Forgiveness and Grace. - 3/27/2010 8:09:09 AM

Thadius

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Morning,

I intentionally stayed away from religious aspects of your original post because I felt the message of forgiveness was more important. Here is why. We all know somebody that is so bitter and caught up in hatred for somebody because of a perceived or actual slight. These people will avoid parties, events, and get togethers because so and so is going to be there. In their attempts to punish the person they are mad at they wind up punishing themselves by missing out on all of the other great things. Know what I mean?

Since you asked more about the "in God's grace" and a Christian POV, I will try to touch on it a bit. I suppose the best place to start is with the parable that explains the issue almost perfectly.

quote:

From Matthew chapter 18

21 Then Peter came to Him and said, “Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? Up to seven times?”
22 Jesus said to him, “I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven.
23 Therefore the kingdom of heaven is like a certain king who wanted to settle accounts with his servants.
24 And when he had begun to settle accounts, one was brought to him who owed him ten thousand talents.
25 But as he was not able to pay, his master commanded that he be sold, with his wife and children and all that he had, and that payment be made.
26 The servant therefore fell down before him, saying, ‘Master, have patience with me, and I will pay you all.’
27 Then the master of that servant was moved with compassion, released him, and forgave him the debt.
28 “But that servant went out and found one of his fellow servants who owed him a hundred denarii; and he laid hands on him and took him by the throat, saying, ‘Pay me what you owe!’
29 So his fellow servant fell down at his feet and begged him, saying, ‘Have patience with me, and I will pay you all.’
30 And he would not, but went and threw him into prison till he should pay the debt.
31 So when his fellow servants saw what had been done, they were very grieved, and came and told their master all that had been done.
32 Then his master, after he had called him, said to him, ‘You wicked servant! I forgave you all that debt because you begged me.
33 Should you not also have had compassion on your fellow servant, just as I had pity on you?’
34 And his master was angry, and delivered him to the torturers until he should pay all that was due to him.
35 “So My heavenly Father also will do to you if each of you, from his heart, does not forgive his brother his trespasses.”

From a Christian point of view we believe that the Lord has forgiven all of the sins of mankind, and will continue to do so if asked for forgiveness. So how can we not forgive somebody for much smaller things when we are asked. We only condemn ourselves by holding a grudge.

Hope that covers it a bit better. Of course this is simply my opinion of the matter.

I wish you well,
Thadius

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RE: Forgiveness and Grace. - 3/27/2010 8:16:49 AM

sirsholly

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quote:

From a Christian point of view we believe that the Lord has forgiven all of the sins of mankind, and will continue to do so if asked for forgiveness. So how can we not forgive somebody for much smaller things when we are asked. We only condemn ourselves by holding a grudge.

what stands out to me here is "when asked". Lets face it...there are those who will never ask. So what then?

That is when "let it go" becomes such a challenge. If someone is enough of a jerk to cause injury without a backward glance/apology, i certainly want nothing to do with them and do not want to be around them. It is hardly like i can vent/rage to them on a daily basis, and my anger means nothing to them. It is ME the anger is hurting.

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RE: Forgiveness and Grace. - 3/27/2010 8:29:43 AM

Thadius

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quote:

ORIGINAL: sirsholly

quote:

From a Christian point of view we believe that the Lord has forgiven all of the sins of mankind, and will continue to do so if asked for forgiveness. So how can we not forgive somebody for much smaller things when we are asked. We only condemn ourselves by holding a grudge.

what stands out to me here is "when asked". Lets face it...there are those who will never ask. So what then?

That is when "let it go" becomes such a challenge. If someone is enough of a jerk to cause injury without a backward glance/apology, i certainly want nothing to do with them and do not want to be around them. It is hardly like i can vent/rage to them on a daily basis, and my anger means nothing to them. It is ME the anger is hurting.

Trust me I know that is where it gets hard. For many years I had a reputation for being a vindictive prick. So what then? Would you not forgive somebody that didn't get a chance to ask because of a freak accident or some other serious reason? The real question is do we forgive for the sake of the other person or are we forgiving for our own sake? Carrying around those grudges and the anger can get tiring and burdensome; they can even start to take over other aspects of our lives. Why give that kind of power to some asshat that you know will never apologize? Write em off, and know that karma is a bitch.

Indeed you answered the question in your last paragraph. That anger only hurts the one who holds it. There are more constructive ways to get rid of that negative energy, even if they involve putting a few hundred holes in a target. I think we are on the same page, on this issue.

Holly, have a great day. My best to you and yours.

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RE: Forgiveness and Grace. - 3/27/2010 9:24:13 AM

RCdc

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Thank you writing more Thadius.
And the scripture and explaination made sense to me.

What I am struggling with is the whole idea that forgiveness is there only in gods grace. But then, how does a christian feel about someone whom isn't under gods grace who forgives? The statement the lady made was that forgiveness only comes when living in gods grace. Like it is something special and defined only under grace, and having witnessed forgiveness by those not under gods grace by their own choice, I found it a rather judgemental statement. Or am I incorrect?

the.dark.

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RE: Forgiveness and Grace. - 3/27/2010 9:38:40 AM

Thadius

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quote:

ORIGINAL: RCdc

Thank you writing more Thadius.
And the scripture and explaination made sense to me.

What I am struggling with is the whole idea that forgiveness is there only in gods grace. But then, how does a christian feel about someone whom isn't under gods grace who forgives? The statement the lady made was that forgiveness only comes when living in gods grace. Like it is something special and defined only under grace, and having witnessed forgiveness by those not under gods grace by their own choice, I found it a rather judgemental statement. Or am I incorrect?

the.dark.

In my personal opinion all of God's creations are capable of doing the right or wrong thing. Even those that are "living under God's grace" are capable of some pretty nasty things. I believe that forgiveness is the way humans deal with a wrong that has been done to them, often it is the inner scarring that takes longer to heal than the outer; forgiveness is one of the treatments for that.

I would agree that the statement is rather judgemental, however she is entitled to her opinion. Being a man that falls from the grace of God, I cannot accept the notion that I am not able to forgive, or am not able to be forgiven. Isn't it when we fall from that grace that we need to be forgiven the most?

This is sort of in line with a debate that I have with some pastors around here that like to treat divorcees as second class citizens. You can obviously see where that discussion leads. These folks want to preach from the pulpit that through belief all sins can be forgiven, yet they themselves cannot forgive divorce.

I hope that helps a bit.

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RE: Forgiveness and Grace. - 3/27/2010 10:48:12 AM

sirsholly

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quote:

What I am struggling with is the whole idea that forgiveness is there only in gods grace.

if this were true, the Atheists would be a miserable bunch.

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RE: Forgiveness and Grace. - 3/27/2010 10:49:16 AM

sirsholly

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quote:

Holly, have a great day. My best to you and yours.

Same to you Thadius

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RE: Forgiveness and Grace. - 3/27/2010 10:49:28 AM

Thadius

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quote:

ORIGINAL: sirsholly

quote:

What I am struggling with is the whole idea that forgiveness is there only in gods grace.
if this were true, the Atheists would be a miserable bunch.

Many of them are. Though to be fair so are many of the faithful.

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RE: Forgiveness and Grace. - 3/27/2010 11:13:15 AM

NorthernGent

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quote:

ORIGINAL: RCdc

Hi NG.

I completely agree. The only reason I brought the 'resentment' word into it was as an example of how a quote can be and has been altered. My friend had never heard it before, but I had all but for the change of a single word.

Both quotes have their own merits though and are equally thought provoking IMO.

quote:

There are things I can't forgive - but resentment doesn't build up as a result.

Now this puts a whole new slant on it and I thank you for that. I believe that thinking like that might just be the difference between false humility and being humble - does that make any sense or am I rambling?

the.dark.

Hello there Dark.....

Not rambling. For clarity's sake - it's nothing to do with humility on my part - more a case that life's too short to get bogged down in trivial matters. We all get done over from time to time - it's merely part of life's twists and turns - only sensible way to deal with it is: "win some/lose some" and go about your business leaving behind the losing streak. Just an expectation that you can't win 'em all.

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RE: Forgiveness and Grace. - 3/27/2010 4:55:29 PM

RCdc

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Thank you again Thadius. I really enjoy reading your posts.

I think my question is - Does the bible teach/do christians really believe - that forgiveness(external) is purely down to the grace of god, or is this woman simply stating her own interpretation or even misrepresenting the essence of grace?

the.dark.

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RE: Forgiveness and Grace. - 3/27/2010 5:29:25 PM

Thadius

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To answer you question, I believe there are many that do believe that sort of thing. When I meet folks that spout such things (only Christians do this or such and such), I like to remind them that Jesus wasn't originally sent to save the gentiles. Reminding them of a simple statement that showed so much faith, "even the dogs get to eat the crumbs from their master's table".

I cannot answer for exactly what others believe, much less is it my place to cast judgement on their beliefs. I personally believe that forgiveness does exist without the grace of God (or at least without the acceptance of such), as can be seen in many other cultures that do not believe or have no concept of the God of the bible.

That is about the best I can do at answering this one.

Again this was a great topic, and I have enjoyed participating as we are coming up on a period of time that represents this very issue, at least for Christians.

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RE: Forgiveness and Grace. - 3/27/2010 5:33:52 PM

RCdc

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Thank you Thadius, that helped me make much more sense of this issue.

the.dark.

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