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Asked and answered.

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ORIGINAL: ishyB

~FR~

Bella was trying to address tazzy's behavior from a Gorean perspective, seeing that she knows tazzy is a kajira.

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And that tazzy's labeling him as a "slave boy" when he is not a slave in either the Gorean or the BDSM context, might have been inappropriate from the social position tazzy finds herself in as a kajira.

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ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

lol... a submissive boy telling me no. how cute!


Oh dear...

Though if he's listed as "switch" and you're listed as "slave" I think the "hierarchy" would be clear, if you want to make it about that.

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Bella as such pointed out to her, that from that Gorean point of view, of course he had the right to tell her "no". And that tazzy's labeling him as a "slave boy" when he is not a slave in either the Gorean or the BDSM context, might have been inappropriate from the social position tazzy finds herself in as a kajira.

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ORIGINAL: Andalusite

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ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
if i recognized a switch, perhaps. and as much as that may get me chewed out, i simply cannot view a man who kneels as dominant. they may have a dominant streak, which is a totally different animal.

Hi, tazzygirl, I'm Andalusite, and I'm a switch. Now that we've been formally introduced, presumably you'll recognise me the next time I post on the forums.

I was a Domme for 5 years when I first got into D/s and BDSM. My submissive deferred to my judgement regarding jobs and college major, gave me access to his bank account and authority over his budget, lost weight/exercised to my specifications (granted, after asking for my help), and otherwise deferred to me. I wasn't "streaking," I had genuine authority and responsibility. Now I'm a slave, and I have a submissive playpartner. I don't have authority over her because she is married and we aren't in a romantic relationship. If my Master and I wind up in a poly relationship with a submissive, she might submit only to me, only to my Master, or to both of us - it would depend upon how the three of us interact, and you don't get any say in the matter.

As far as a general hierarchy with other posters, I'm not in a D/s interaction with anyone here except for my Master. I will neither dominate nor submit to anyone, although I do follow the rules the site has set, and any guidance by the moderators. I try to be polite to everyone.

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ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady

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ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Enjoy the debate on the "hierachy" of the lifestyle and how you feel it applies to you.

Nice way to derail the thread and make it about the difference between Gor and Non Gor.

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Going back to the OP though and the real subject at hand, with complete disregard for those who think this is the thread for them to get a better understanding of the Goreans....

I'm not really clear whether you are talking about a general hierarchy among everyone within the "community" at large or at specific events or simply within relationships.

Within a power exchange relationship, one defers to the other, that is the very nature of a hierarchy. It doesn't necessarily mean that the dominant partner is "superior" to the submissive partner, just simply that the people involved (God forbid I leave out those poly people, by using the term "couple") have determined who is going to be the one in charge. Does that mean that the submissive partner will "defer" to everyone who slaps some honorific in front of their name? That all depends on what the dominant in charge of the relationship says, now doesn't it? I've no doubt that there are some "masters" who dictate that their slave defer to and serve anyone with such an honorific. I may not agree with that (and I know I have lots of company in that regard), but hey if it works for them, and they're happy with it, have at it.

At specific events, the protocol that would need to be followed would be the protocol the hosts of the event choose. I don't attend these types of events, but I don't doubt that very frequently a hierarchy is in place during the event. I'm sure that this is something that LadyPact or the other high protocol types could expound on much better than me.

At "general" events, I imagine that the hierarchy thing is a bit more "free for all" style. There is no "specific" host that is dictating the behavior, so it would follow that the owned people follow the guidelines of their masters, the un partnered people do what they feel is best for them and everyone (I would hope) is simply following "basic courtesy" to others until they know what their view point is. A good friend of mine from here has convinced me to attend some fetish cruise with her, my partner will not be attending with me. All I can say is that I'm grateful I'm a switch, so I don't have to worry about such things.

Then there are these boards, and the online community at large. There are plenty here who seem to follow some mental hierarchy of their own and believe that all dominants should be deferred to, or all submissive/slaves should be silent or agreeable to all dominants. The majority of us laugh our asses off at the latter, let's face facts.

Because in the "online" world, everyone is just a person. Their opinions, thoughts whatnot are as valuable as anyone else's. If you are spouting bullshit, it doesn't matter which side of the kneel you are on, someone is going to point it out to you. Personally, I don't follow such "hierarchies" within the community or in life, aside from in an employment situation (Judges frown a lot if you tell them you are full of shit, lol). People gain respect or lose respect around here based on their posts. I don't think that anyone here respects LadyPact because she is a dominant. They respect her because she is typically clear, concise, polite, and informative in her posts, often offering further guidance to people who need it (sorry LP, but you are probably one of the most respected people here, so easy to use as an example). There are those who believe they are highly respected and don't know how much others laugh at their posts as being the musings of someone who is full of themselves. There are others who are quite wise in their posts but often apologize for posting in a section not "meant for them."

Personally, I respect those that offer true words of wisdom without the need to regularly announce how smart they are or how respected they are within the community. Because I have found that the people who do that typically are a bit delusional and it makes even the rare intelligent posts from them somewhat suspect.

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ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

i am flattered you consider me a kajira, but its not a claim i make for myself. the comment i made was that he was submissive... not slave.. and it was a joke.

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ORIGINAL: Elisabella

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ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

i am flattered you consider me a kajira, but its not a claim i make for myself. the comment i made was that he was submissive... not slave.. and it was a joke.

Aren't you the slave of a Gorean man?

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ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
alot of people are making alot of assumptions

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ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

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ORIGINAL: Elisabella

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ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

i am flattered you consider me a kajira, but its not a claim i make for myself. the comment i made was that he was submissive... not slave.. and it was a joke.

Aren't you the slave of a Gorean man?

alot of people are making alot of assumptions

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ORIGINAL: catize

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ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika

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The trouble, though, is that people respond based on inaccurate understandings, and thus say things that may make sense inside their own heads but are nonetheless completely inaccurate. You and LA have done that here. What others are telling you instead is correct.

Ok, then please help me understand otherwise then Musicmystery. Because so far, what I understand about Gor is that women will never be able to achieve the same level of dominance as men.

- LA

See, here's where it breaks down for me. If the 'natural order' is real, then there would be no need for the endless debate about it because we would all accept and live it; errrm, naturally!

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But beyond sexuality, women have a different approach to power. It isn't the same as male power. We don't use physical strength, we use mental strength, psychology, persuasion. Of course, to the male who beats his chest and thinks power is all about physical strength, this seems like a ruse, but he will only see it this way if it challenges his power.

So to use reductive statements like "we live in a male dominated society" is very one dimensional. There has always been a very strong tension between men and women and with women claiming some of their power in more official terms and returning in greater numbers to positions of power—as throughout history, there are many examples of strong women in power—is only benefiting our evolution. Nature would not want one gender dominating over another, that would be a very weak strategy and it would not have made it this far.

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Well that might have been some people's conclusion, but it was certainly not mine. I do not believe that this natural order' is real. If you only look at things from a black and white one-dimensional perspective however, I can see how a person can come to this conclusion.

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ORIGINAL: catize

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Well that might have been some people's conclusion, but it was certainly not mine. I do not believe that this natural order' is real. If you only look at things from a black and white one-dimensional perspective however, I can see how a person can come to this conclusion.

LadyAngelika,
It was not my conclusion that you believe in the 'natural order'. I apologize for the confusion. Your post expands very articulately what I was trying to say in my one sentence.

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Well that might have been some people's conclusion, but it was certainly not mine. I do not believe that this natural order' is real. If you only look at things from a black and white one-dimensional perspective however, I can see how a person can come to this conclusion.

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So to come back to a construct such as Gor where a society is artificially created to counteract discontent with the actual society in which we live, stating that the male dominated society is enforced because it is what we see in reality is facile. If it really were what we saw in society, then society would look like Gor. But it doesn't and that is simply because that imbalance does not exist in society. Power is much more complex than that. Rather, to me, Gor is an example of a micro-society that establishes artificial rules—and I'm not saying this in a derogatory way—to support the desires of the actors within that society. And that's ok, because after all, kink, BDSM, WIITWD is about desire and wish fulfilment. For those who consent to this structure, well may you be happy and fulfilled. It is however very one-dimensional to believe that the power structure created within that society is a reproduction of the real power structure in humanity as male physical dominance is only one dimension of the greater construct of power.

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ORIGINAL: ElizabethAnne
While the term natural order is used in the Gorean books, what is used more often is the order of nature; similar but slightly different.  Much of what John Norman expounds upon, is to feel  fulfilled in life is to live true to a person's nature, whether that is free or slave.