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RE: Hierachy - 3/28/2010 9:08:27 AM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: bondmaid123

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl


quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella


quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

i am flattered you consider me a kajira, but its not a claim i make for myself. the comment i made was that he was submissive... not slave.. and it was a joke.


Aren't you the slave of a Gorean man?


alot of people are making alot of assumptions


taz,  it might be that your profile indicates that you're a slave, and the guy you're involved with identifies as Gorean and is active in that forum.  Just sayin'.... that's not really an "assumption", eh?



it is an assumption as i have addressed this before, directly, concisely and to a point that leads no one to any misunderstanding. others tend to believe as they wish, which there is nothing i can do about.

your a smart cookie, i will leave you to figure out the rest

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to bondmaid123)
Profile   Post #: 121
RE: Hierachy - 3/28/2010 9:10:15 AM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: barelynangel

tazzy, its this simple clear up with 2 questions --

Does Dinnardin claim to be Gorean?

Are you his slave?

If both of these questions are answered yes, then you are a slave of a Gorean, which means kajira is accurate since its simply a Gorean language for female slave. no prestige no more than any other slave in any venue -- it simply means they are female slaves and they usually are associated as slaves of Goreans due to it being a Gorean word.

Its not complicated.

angel



its not complicated at all. i answered these questions before. i stated then i would answer them only once.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to barelynangel)
Profile   Post #: 122
RE: Hierachy - 3/28/2010 9:12:11 AM   
LadyAngelika


Posts: 8070
Joined: 7/4/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery
Well, that throws out the bulk of what we discussed yesterday.


No it doesn't. I appreciated a clearer portrait of what Gor was but I didn't accept it's premise. I made that clear.


quote:

You are still thinking of some sort of cult. But many authors explore society by constructing fictional variations. It doesn't make these utopia--it allows human interaction to play out differently than the typical results we're going to see in the day to day world.


Never called it a cult. Cult is a rather judgement free word that simply means a group of people who share a belief system but I avoid it like the plague because it has collected too many negative attributes along the way.

I called it a micro-society developed to explore kink, similar to any other micro-society existing within and outside of BDSM. This isn't derogatory. This is basic sociology.


quote:

From Dante to Cerantes to Joyce to Conrad to Camus to Sartre, we see this played out in order to examine the real world. As Plato write, "the unexamined life is not worth living."


Yes, just like Virginia Woolf, Mary Shelly, Aphra Behn, George Eliot, and others are important figures in literary history. ;-)

And for the record, Plato isn't credited with that quote, Socrates is. He said that at his trial for heresy. It has been in my tagline for months.


quote:

This is a tiring and silly and pointless discussion. Believe what you want---including that the artificial world you live in is the only one natural or possible. We're at the height of human possibilities. This is it. Enjoy. End of thinking.


Come on MM, don't let frustration get in the way of an intelligent conversation. If you are tired of it, I don't mind giving you a break. I can be nice now and then ;-) But I don't live in an artificial world. I live in a very real world which I admit I escape from time to time through fantasies. But I have no illusions that my feet are firmly planted on the ground.

As for the artifice, if you refer to technology, that again is a question of perception. The Taoist will say that nothing on this planet is artificial as it is ultimately created from something of this planet. As we evolve, we refine, and it is through refinement that we get precision, accuracy and efficiency. If you don't believe in this, forgo all utensils for eating and revert to your hands. Do not ever use a car or public transportation again. You have two feet!


quote:

I'm done. Feel free to dismiss what you don't understand. Life is simpler that way. Simplistic, but simpler.


I didn't dismiss it. If that is really your impression, than you aren't making the efforts to read my words as they are intended. I fully support people living their lives the way they want as long as that lifestyle does not impede on the rights and liberties of others. If you and your slave, who by the way I quite like as well, are happy, than that's really all that matters.

- LA


<edited to fix a quote tag>

< Message edited by LadyAngelika -- 3/28/2010 9:13:39 AM >


_____________________________

Une main de fer dans un gant de velours ~ An iron hand in a velvet glove

(in reply to Musicmystery)
Profile   Post #: 123
RE: Hierachy - 3/28/2010 9:15:28 AM   
LadyAngelika


Posts: 8070
Joined: 7/4/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery
Well, that throws out the bulk of what we discussed yesterday.


No it doesn't. I appreciated a clearer portrait of what Gor was but I didn't accept it's premise hat it was replicating a male-dominated society. I made that clear.


quote:

You are still thinking of some sort of cult. But many authors explore society by constructing fictional variations. It doesn't make these utopia--it allows human interaction to play out differently than the typical results we're going to see in the day to day world.


Never called it a cult. Cult is a rather judgement free word that simply means a group of people who share a belief system but I avoid it like the plague because it has collected too many negative attributes along the way.

I called it a micro-society developed to explore kink, similar to any other micro-society existing within and outside of BDSM. This isn't derogatory. This is basic sociology.


quote:

From Dante to Cerantes to Joyce to Conrad to Camus to Sartre, we see this played out in order to examine the real world. As Plato write, "the unexamined life is not worth living."


Yes, just like Virginia Woolf, Mary Shelly, Aphra Behn, George Eliot, and others are important figures in literary history. ;-)

And for the record, Plato isn't credited with that quote, Socrates is. He said that at his trial for heresy. It has been in my tagline for months.


quote:

This is a tiring and silly and pointless discussion. Believe what you want---including that the artificial world you live in is the only one natural or possible. We're at the height of human possibilities. This is it. Enjoy. End of thinking.


Come on MM, don't let frustration get in the way of an intelligent conversation. If you are tired of it, I don't mind giving you a break. I can be nice now and then ;-) But I don't live in an artificial world. I live in a very real world which I admit I escape from time to time through fantasies. But I have no illusions that my feet are firmly planted on the ground.

As for the artifice, if you refer to technology, that again is a question of perception. The Taoist will say that nothing on this planet is artificial as it is ultimately created from something of this planet. As we evolve, we refine, and it is through refinement that we get precision, accuracy and efficiency. If you don't believe in this, forgo all utensils for eating and revert to your hands. Do not ever use a car or public transportation again. You have two feet!


quote:

I'm done. Feel free to dismiss what you don't understand. Life is simpler that way. Simplistic, but simpler.


I didn't dismiss it. If that is really your impression, than you aren't making the efforts to read my words as they are intended. I fully support people living their lives the way they want as long as that lifestyle does not impede on the rights and liberties of others. If you and your slave, who by the way I quite like as well, are happy, than that's really all that matters.

- LA


<edited to fix a quote tag>


_____________________________

Une main de fer dans un gant de velours ~ An iron hand in a velvet glove

(in reply to LadyAngelika)
Profile   Post #: 124
RE: Hierachy - 3/28/2010 9:23:28 AM   
ElizabethAnne


Posts: 1751
Status: offline
Angelika,

quote:

I my world, my hierarchy constructs support my kink, it just so happens that that construct will be made up of myself and one very exceptional man


Perhaps herein lies the difficulty - the word "kink".  Most of the Goreans I know don't view the way we live as a "kink".   But since that is your kink, enjoy!  Especially since your one exceptional man has the same kink. ;)   More power to you, (pun intended).

Be well,

Elizabeth


(in reply to LadyAngelika)
Profile   Post #: 125
RE: Hierachy - 3/28/2010 9:29:19 AM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline
quote:

Plato isn't credited with that quote, Socrates is.


Socrates didn't write anything (that we know of or have). We know of Socrates only through Plato.

Therefore, with adherence to standard literary practice, we accurately say "As Plato writes"--in this case, Plato's Apology.

(in reply to LadyAngelika)
Profile   Post #: 126
RE: Hierachy - 3/28/2010 9:31:25 AM   
LadyAngelika


Posts: 8070
Joined: 7/4/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

quote:

Plato isn't credited with that quote, Socrates is.


Socrates didn't write anything (that we know of or have). We know of Socrates only through Plato.

Therefore, with adherence to standard literary practice, we accurately say "As Plato writes"--in this case, Plato's Apology.


I didn't say Socrates wrote it. I said Socrates has been credited with it, by which I mean for having expressed it. See that is what happens when you involve technology such as writing, people get credit for someone else's wisdom. Ah that evil technology ;-)

- LA


_____________________________

Une main de fer dans un gant de velours ~ An iron hand in a velvet glove

(in reply to Musicmystery)
Profile   Post #: 127
RE: Hierachy - 3/28/2010 9:37:14 AM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline
This is an even sillier and more pointless distraction.

Socrates says that in Plato's Apology. Whether Socrates said all the things Plato credits to him or whether this is Plato's work primarily (the favored view) is a matter of scholarly debate.

How to properly credit a quotation from an author's work is not.

I've been doing this a long time. Look it up yourself. It's really something a doctoral student should know.

(in reply to LadyAngelika)
Profile   Post #: 128
RE: Hierachy - 3/28/2010 9:47:45 AM   
LadyAngelika


Posts: 8070
Joined: 7/4/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

This is an even sillier and more pointless distraction.

Socrates says that in Plato's Apology. Whether Socrates said all the things Plato credits to him or whether this is Plato's work primarily (the favored view) is a matter of scholarly debate.

How to properly credit a quotation from an author's work is not.

I've been doing this a long time. Look it up yourself. It's really something a doctoral student should know.


I'm fully aware of how to credit a quotation. Insults are not necessary, especially not when I'm debating with you in a good humoured fashion.

In an academic publication it would be Socrates as written by Plato, yes. But Collarme is far from an academic publication and I prefer to write the quote up as it is commonly referenced in quotation resources, as attributed to the mind and thoughts of Socrates. As for my abilities as a doctoral student, I'll leave that judgement to my professors and publishers.

Anyhow, we do both agree that it is distracting from the topic at hand so I will drop it.

- LA


_____________________________

Une main de fer dans un gant de velours ~ An iron hand in a velvet glove

(in reply to Musicmystery)
Profile   Post #: 129
RE: Hierachy - 3/28/2010 10:23:22 AM   
ishyB


Posts: 555
Joined: 9/2/2008
Status: offline
tazzy,

If you want to twist my words to make them sound as if I was accusing you of anything, you may of course do so, but I would like to point out that I very clearly stated: that I didn't think you breached any protocol that was expected of you, and as such, have done nothing wrong.

How that equals an attack, I don't know.

You are right, it seems that I may have misread what you wrote, it does seem to say "submissive" now, instead of slave boy, including in the follow up post by Master Thadius. I thought I was sure, but it seems I was not, and surely you couldn't have edited a Gorean Free Man's words, so my apologies for my fault.

However, it doesn't change anything in my original point: a submissive is still able to determine who they submit to -as a Free Woman- and is as such a free person from the Gorean perspective. As you know, a kajira is expected to defer -not submit- to free people, regardless of the contempt they might have for such a person.

When I pointed this out on this topic, it wasn't an accusation towards you, since I clearly noted that adherence to this protocol isn't currently expected of you, instead, it was an explanation why Bella reacted as she did.
A lot of people in the BDSM crowed know little of Gorean protocol, and as such may not have understood why Bella even said anything in the first place. I was just trying to clear that up, never did I say that you did anything wrong.

As to you being a kajira or not...
All the information I have is that you call yourself the slave of a man who claims he's Gorean.
That makes you a kajira. Surely I don't need to explain the term to you.

If since I last got my information, you made a post stating that you are no longer the slave of a man that claims he's Gorean, then I missed it.
You surely didn't make that post on the Gorean board; and you make too many posts for me to go track down every post you ever might have made on this subject on every random board. Not only are there too many, but I also don't care enough to go read anything you've ever wrote.
Seeing that you seem to be unwilling to talk about your relationship status, I can only go on what I have read from you in the past. You certainly used to identify with that label, I have no indication that you are no longer owned by him, so I will assume that you still are.

I wish you well,

ishy
 

< Message edited by ishyB -- 3/28/2010 10:27:04 AM >


_____________________________

I want you to know that it doesn't matter where we take this road
Someone's gotta go
and I want you to know you couldn't have loved me better
But I wanted to move on
So I'm already gone

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PoJFn_RIdkg

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 130
RE: Hierachy - 3/28/2010 11:07:55 AM   
ElizabethAnne


Posts: 1751
Status: offline
ish,

Unless Bull tells you to go looking for what she said once, refuting what she has either intimated or implied for years, don't.   Honestly it isn't worth your time, I am sure your Master or Mistress has better things for you to do.  And besides, anyone who has read the Gorean boards has an inkling of what is going on here.

For the record, what would happen to you if you made a post starting out with, "for fucks sake" regardless to it's to?   It's clear either Dinnardin doesn't know she's posting as she is, he doesn't hold her in the same type of slavery as many  Gorean men hold their slaves, OR she simply isn't a slave.  

See you in a couple of weeks.

Liz

edited to add: this IS in reply to ishyB, no one else.

< Message edited by ElizabethAnne -- 3/28/2010 11:19:24 AM >

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 131
RE: Hierachy - 3/28/2010 11:11:32 AM   
Andalusite


Posts: 2492
Joined: 1/25/2009
Status: offline
tazzy, I was just trying to tease a little with the word play on "recognizing" switches. I adore puns! In general, I'm a fan of people having and expressing preferences in their relationships, as long as they're reasonably polite about it. If someone says that all switches are weak or unworthy of being served, I do get mildly annoyed. If they express that they don't want to date switches, fine, no problem. If I'm understanding you correctly, you're in a M/s power exchange with a Gorean man, but don't identify as Gorean yourself, so don't choose to use the label of kajira?

MusicMastery and bondmaid as far as I can tell from reading the occasional thread here from Gorean posters, there are two very different positions that have been expressed on the Natural Order/order of nature. Please clarify or correct me if I am mistaken. The first, which I have no problem whatsoever with, is that the majority of men are dominant, and the majority of women are submissive, but individuals are free to be and live however suits them. If an individual person, whether male or female, puts on a dominant/threat front, they come across like a Pekinese picking fights with a pitbull - not able to back up the dominance display that they are putting on, and it can be motivated by fear or weakness. In general, men tend to be stronger, faster, and better at hand-to-hand combat, but there are a lot of individual exceptions, again.

In the other view, which I have seen from self-identified Goreans, the fact that the majority of men are more athletic/etc. and are more likely to be dominant means that *all* men should be dominant and *all* women should be submissive, and that those who aren't are delusional or haven't recognised their place yet. That, I do object to.

In general, I don't really find generalisations about dominance and submission based on gender to be useful or applicable to me as an individual, and there are so many exceptions that I don't feel that using them for predictions of other people's behaviour or interests to be reliable. So, that's why I referred to them as silly - I think they're pointless unless you're doing some sort of statistical or sociological report on populations as a whole.

LA, I don't have any problem with the Gor books being a male-dominated society - authors choose to create different cultures based on a lot of factors. Anne McAffrey's Pern novels are also very male-dominated, although there are some exceptions (and use of those exceptions as major plot points, to show the struggle of women to be accepted in non-traditional roles). If a woman is dominant in the Gor fictional universe, she would either want to find a man who is strong in public, because if he comes across as weak, they are both likely to be harmed. What they do in their own homes, in privacy, would be up to the two of them. If she were able to, she might leave and join the Panther Girls to avoid the male-dominated culture of the rest of Gor. In some cases, she becomes involuntarily enslaved, and her spirit is broken, or she turns out to be a strong, independent, powerful woman who enjoys being a slave (although, I didn't personally care for how those scenes were written, in the two books I read).

(in reply to ishyB)
Profile   Post #: 132
RE: Hierachy - 3/28/2010 11:21:08 AM   
DomImus


Posts: 2004
Joined: 3/17/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub
I list myself as a submissive…it is a role I wish to play… in order to play it I need a Dominant to play their role. If I don’t like the way they play it so long.

Labels mean little after the beginning of a relationship…all that counts is how the two fill each other’s desires.


I think that sums it up pretty well even though I am approaching it from the other side of the fence. I need a submissive who will submit to what I want. If she won't she's of no use to me and is free to go find (or pay) someone who will top her in the manner that she wishes to be topped. Most dominants eventually acquiesce to the role of service top anyway so there is no shortage out there.


_____________________________

"Regret for the things we did can be tempered by time; it is regret for the things we did not do that is inconsolable." Sidney J. harris

(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 133
RE: Hierachy - 3/28/2010 11:24:37 AM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline
quote:

tazzy, I was just trying to tease a little with the word play on "recognizing" switches. I adore puns! In general, I'm a fan of people having and expressing preferences in their relationships, as long as they're reasonably polite about it. If someone says that all switches are weak or unworthy of being served, I do get mildly annoyed. If they express that they don't want to date switches, fine, no problem. If I'm understanding you correctly, you're in a M/s power exchange with a Gorean man, but don't identify as Gorean yourself, so don't choose to use the label of kajira?


a slave isnt gorean, according to the experts. the only thing gorean about her is the one who owns her.

the rules on gorean issues tend to bounce back and forth like a tennis ball in play... depending on who is doing the defining, who is in agreement and which way the wind is blowing... lol

i am how i am, i make no appologies. i grew tired of trying to conform to everyone elses wishes, their expectations, their definitions. as most in BDSm threads would say... there is no one twue way. nor is there among goreans.

but, since i cannot be gorean....

< Message edited by tazzygirl -- 3/28/2010 11:26:23 AM >


_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to Andalusite)
Profile   Post #: 134
RE: Hierachy - 3/28/2010 11:34:26 AM   
ishyB


Posts: 555
Joined: 9/2/2008
Status: offline
* Retracted after reading Mistress Liz's post.
 
You are right Mistress, thank you.

< Message edited by ishyB -- 3/28/2010 11:37:05 AM >


_____________________________

I want you to know that it doesn't matter where we take this road
Someone's gotta go
and I want you to know you couldn't have loved me better
But I wanted to move on
So I'm already gone

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PoJFn_RIdkg

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 135
RE: Hierachy - 3/28/2010 11:35:20 AM   
Level


Posts: 25145
Joined: 3/3/2006
Status: offline
But, if Dinnardin tells you that you are a slave, or a kajira, you would not disagree, tazzy?

_____________________________

Fake the heat and scratch the itch
Skinned up knees and salty lips
Let go it's harder holding on
One more trip and I'll be gone

~~ Stone Temple Pilots

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 136
RE: Hierachy - 3/28/2010 11:45:51 AM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline
neither of us have claimed a collar exists... only a relationship. i dont enter a collar to develop a relationship, quite the opposite. i do know some jump that hoop, which never made any sense to me. but there ya go.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to ishyB)
Profile   Post #: 137
RE: Hierachy - 3/28/2010 11:47:47 AM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Level

But, if Dinnardin tells you that you are a slave, or a kajira, you would not disagree, tazzy?



Would you expect me to agree if you told me that?

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to Level)
Profile   Post #: 138
RE: Hierachy - 3/28/2010 11:54:11 AM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline
~FR

And, now, since this thread is not about me or my relationship with Master Dinnardin... and its about heirachy (however you interpret that) i will no longer even attamept to answer questions about my personal life.

its no one's business but ours

if you have enough time in your life to devote to my relationship, then you obviously have too much time on your hands.

but... for the one time only nosey peeps who feel a need to know far more than they are entitled to know...

i am not collared.

now deal with it.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 139
RE: Hierachy - 3/28/2010 11:55:47 AM   
Level


Posts: 25145
Joined: 3/3/2006
Status: offline
Of course not, as you and I aren't in a relationship.

I have a hard time with the use of "slave" anyway, my literal-mindedness gets in the way.

Edited to add: you're right, it is not my business, just a matter of curiosity on my part.


< Message edited by Level -- 3/28/2010 11:57:33 AM >


_____________________________

Fake the heat and scratch the itch
Skinned up knees and salty lips
Let go it's harder holding on
One more trip and I'll be gone

~~ Stone Temple Pilots

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 140
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