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RE: Phony products impress federal energy program - 3/28/2010 6:30:39 PM   
zephyroftheNorth


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quote:

With this going on how are we going to be able to trust those that are running Obama's death panels


You can't, Domi, that's the thrill of it.  WHEEEEEEEE!!!!! 


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RE: Phony products impress federal energy program - 3/28/2010 6:31:49 PM   
slvemike4u


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity


Its going to have to be rationed, because there are finite resources. And the decisions as to where the axes fall will be medical decisions, made by far off bureaucrats.


quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

And that translates to Doctors being removed from the equation Sanity?
Not likely...not even close.

And I suppose prior to Sundays passage the resources were infinite?
This is another red herring care and its acess has always been "rationed" and will always be so....nothing is free and nothing ever was.

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RE: Phony products impress federal energy program - 3/28/2010 6:34:27 PM   
Musicmystery


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quote:

the decisions as to where the axes fall will be medical decisions, made by far off bureaucrats


As they often are now, in HMOs.

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RE: Phony products impress federal energy program - 3/28/2010 6:35:24 PM   
slvemike4u


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity


If I had just spent an extra couple of hundred dollars on any kind of new appliance just because it was 'Energy Star compliant' I would be really pissed off right now.

Wouldn't you?


quote:

ORIGINAL: domiguy
With this going on how are we going to be able to trust those that are running Obama's death panels?

Sanity why are you so damm fired up to throw the "baby out with the bath water"....so some idiots pulled a fast one on some other idiots over at "energy star" and you leap to the conclusion that all of those ratings on washing machines are now worthless.
Seems like another rush to judgement.....like with Acorn?

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RE: Phony products impress federal energy program - 3/28/2010 6:41:42 PM   
Thadius


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery


quote:

ORIGINAL: Thadius
quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery
By this argument, how can they be trusted to run a military?

Shall we disband it immediately?

Don't some on the left already call for such?

Interesting perspective.

Perfectionist fallacy, Thadius.

Police can't stop crime, so we shouldn't have police. Doctors can't stop disease, so we shouldn't have health care. That kind of thing. Businesses go under, so we shouldn't trust business either.

It's a poor argument.

My friend, you are the one suggesting extremes. I am simply pointing out the reality that already exists. Medicare and Medicaid already ration things in a one size fits all way, they are also going broke. Amtrak cannot shed unused and underused routes, because somebody in DC likes having the service run through their district. Social security we already know where that is headed, and we discussed the USPS in another thread. There is no incentive for the government to run things efficiently, that is how they keep their power by having more and more money to throw at problems instead of solving them. I won't even get into the Dept of Education and their track record...

As to your question about the military, I think many of us can agree that a whole lot of money is wasted when it comes to their spending, and one could even argue about why civilians should not be involved in decisions regarding the running of the military (Don't ask, Don't tell comes to mind).

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RE: Phony products impress federal energy program - 3/28/2010 6:45:43 PM   
Musicmystery


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Status: offline 		Thadius,

I know. I'm throwing them out as illustrations of the problem with what you're presenting.

The problem with getting government to make these hard choices is that people won't elect people who make those hard choices. We could eliminate government from those choices, and we'd be left with the problems and no knowledge of what the problems even truly are.

Pointing this out to oppose a program design to help an unsolved problem isn't productive.

That's where I'm going with that. Or was trying to go.

Tim

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RE: Phony products impress federal energy program - 3/28/2010 6:50:56 PM   
ThatDamnedPanda


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity


Its going to have to be rationed, because there are finite resources. And the decisions as to where the axes fall will be medical decisions, made by far off bureaucrats.



It's already being rationed, and the decisions are already being made by bureaucrats. Only they're actuarial and financial decisions, rather than medical decisions.


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RE: Phony products impress federal energy program - 3/28/2010 6:55:29 PM   
slvemike4u


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Status: offline 		No,no,no Panda.....the health care system,prior to Sunday anyway,was not only run without the benifit of breaucrats....it also had infinite resources which were available to infinite numbers of people!

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RE: Phony products impress federal energy program - 3/28/2010 7:16:49 PM   
Sanity


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Government bureaucrats have little or no efficiency incentives, I've even seen instances where there were direct incentives to waste resources. Since everything will be "free" under Obamacare you'll have homeless people wanting to live in hospitals due to phantom pains, others wanting unlimited cosmetic surgeries, and others wanting even crazier shit - and it will be bureaucrats who will ultimately be making those medical decisions.

Panels... of some kind. Deciding what to budget for, what to cut. Things like, how old is too old for a new hip or knee or pacemaker, in a very inefficiently run system.


quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity


Its going to have to be rationed, because there are finite resources. And the decisions as to where the axes fall will be medical decisions, made by far off bureaucrats.



It's already being rationed, and the decisions are already being made by bureaucrats. Only they're actuarial and financial decisions, rather than medical decisions.



< Message edited by Sanity -- 3/28/2010 7:18:02 PM >

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RE: Phony products impress federal energy program - 3/28/2010 7:22:55 PM   
Musicmystery


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quote:

Since everything will be "free" under Obamacare you'll have homeless people wanting to live in hospitals due to phantom pains, others wanting unlimited cosmetic surgeries


Nonsense. What happened to co-pays? Or that elective surgery isn't covered?

Or that homeless people now don't go to homeless shelters. Why are hospitals more attractive?

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RE: Phony products impress federal energy program - 3/28/2010 7:27:19 PM   
slvemike4u


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Status: offline 		And the only incentive Insurance bureaucrats ever had was a bottom line incentive....how did that translate to better medical care.After my disc was replaced one or more of those bureaucrats decided I was no longer entitled to nor did I medically need any more therapy.....well according to my surgeon I owe them a large dose of responsibility for the pain I will deal with for the rest of my life....the decision was made,they wouldn't pay I wasn't working and couldn't pay out of pocket...by the time we got back in front of the judge a little something called fusion had occurred.Bottom line,no amount of therapy at this point can change what was done....here's a lifetime supply of vicodin sir,sorry about that!

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If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4


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Profile   Post #: 31
RE: Phony products impress federal energy program - 3/28/2010 7:29:25 PM   
slvemike4u


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From: United States
Status: offline 		Tim I'm starting to worry about you....you are treating those concerns as if they are legitimate.
Next you will be denying the existance of "death panels".

_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4


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RE: Phony products impress federal energy program - 3/28/2010 7:31:01 PM   
ThatDamnedPanda


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity


Government bureaucrats have little or no efficiency incentives, I've even seen instances where there were direct incentives to waste resources.


Which is somehow worse than our current system, where the insurance company bureaucrats have no incentive to provide adequate coverage? In which there are direct incentives to literally kill people in order to save money? You find that preferable? That's more "American" to you?



quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity
Since everything will be "free" under Obamacare you'll have homeless people wanting to live in hospitals due to phantom pains,


Well, then I imagine they'll be thrown out on their asses the way they are when they pull that shit now. So what?



quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity
others wanting unlimited cosmetic surgeries, and others wanting even crazier shit - and it will be bureaucrats who will ultimately be making those medical decisions.


So what? This is some incredibly garagantuan unsolvable problem that will cause the government to collapse and the earth to crack open and vomit up clouds of sulfur? Nobody in the entire system will be capable of figuring out some sort of solution to the problem of people wanting unnecessary facelifts?

How late do you stay up at night dreaming up all these ridiculous things to worry about?


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity
Panels... of some kind. Deciding what to budget for, what to cut. Things like, how old is too old for a new hip or knee or pacemaker, in a very inefficiently run system.


Just like they do in Canada, the UK, and all the other countries that have a single-payer health care system?

Oh, wait. They don't do that.

So, uh... what was your point, again?


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RE: Phony products impress federal energy program - 3/28/2010 8:07:35 PM   
Sanity


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From: Nampa, Idaho USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda
Which is somehow worse than our current system, where the insurance company bureaucrats have no incentive to provide adequate coverage? In which there are direct incentives to literally kill people in order to save money? You find that preferable? That's more "American" to you?


Insurance companies have incentives now, they have legal contracts they have to live up to and they have other incentives which range from BBB listings and employer satisfaction surveys (aka free market forces0, to remedial lawsuits, to government arbitration...

Seriously, do you ever think about these things for yourself panda?

quote:


Well, then I imagine they'll be thrown out on their asses the way they are when they pull that shit now. So what?


So what? Who decides - thats "so what".  Its what we're discussing, medical decisions made by bureaucrats. Its free, as they have 'coverage' that you and I pay for. They say they're in pain, why can't they stay there.


quote:


So what? This is some incredibly garagantuan unsolvable problem that will cause the government to collapse and the earth to crack open and vomit up clouds of sulfur? Nobody in the entire system will be capable of figuring out some sort of solution to the problem of people wanting unnecessary facelifts?


Where is the line drawn panda? Why cant burn victims have cosmetic surgery. Or if you're born ugly, or if you want a sex change operation, you won't be covered? Why not cosmetic surgery... people scream if insurance companies won't provide such things now, and call them evil. The costs are going to eat us alive.

Its going to be a typical bureaucratic nightmare.


quote:


Just like they do in Canada, the UK, and all the other countries that have a single-payer health care system?

Oh, wait. They don't do that.

So, uh... what was your point, again?



All the Caribou Kens and Barbies living up in Canada just don't get it either. They live in a very sparsely populated country relative to the United States, and the size of our population makes any government program here totally unlike the things they see up there.

And anyone living under such a system who is honest will readily admit that their systems have serious problems, problems that the socialists here like to pretend don't even exist.


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RE: Phony products impress federal energy program - 3/28/2010 8:08:55 PM   
subrob1967


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Status: offline 		Actually the military is run by people who have served in the military, gone through military, schools, colleges,  and academy's, and have earned their rank.

It is overseen by the government, and elected officials, who may or may not have served a single day of their lives in uniform. (McDonald's don't count for you liberal arts majors).

So the fallacy of the military being run well by the government, is just that, a fallacy, and a total bullshit argument.

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RE: Phony products impress federal energy program - 3/28/2010 8:14:07 PM   
Sanity


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Do bureaucracies ever shrink themselves? Do politicians ever cut entitlement programs? No, they continuously expand, and as a nation we're teetering on the brink of insolvency right now.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery
Nonsense. What happened to co-pays? Or that elective surgery isn't covered?

Or that homeless people now don't go to homeless shelters. Why are hospitals more attractive?


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RE: Phony products impress federal energy program - 3/28/2010 8:18:54 PM   
Musicmystery


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RE: Phony products impress federal energy program - 3/28/2010 8:21:37 PM   
Sanity


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Not directly, you have to think about it.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

None of which addresses the questions.


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RE: Phony products impress federal energy program - 3/28/2010 8:22:48 PM   
Musicmystery


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RE: Phony products impress federal energy program - 3/28/2010 8:34:33 PM   
Sanity


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Why are you going to charge the homeless copays? And why no elective surgeries... health care should be free, right? Why are you so cruel... don't you know these people have no money?

And why aren't you going to provide people with free housing anyway, that should be a right. And food, why isn't that a right.




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