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Does anyone think there are more than two genders? - 4/2/2006 5:03:32 PM

alleypussykat

Posts: 2
Joined: 10/2/2004
Status: offline

I consider my gender to be in-between male and female. Phyisically, I'm male, although I wouldn't say that
my body was typically shaped for a male. But psychologically, I've never felt like a "man" (or a "boy" before that).
But I don't feel like a "woman", either - I'm not even sure what that would mean for me. So, I've come to
think of my gender as being in the middle. And there are lots of other people who similarly identify:
genderqueers and androgynes, for instance. I'm curious, though, whether people are capable of seeing
people like me as of another gender - not male, not female, but something different.

Post #: 1

RE: Does anyone think there are more than two genders? - 4/2/2006 5:15:32 PM

BitaTruble

Posts: 9779
Joined: 1/12/2006
From: Texas
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: alleypussykat

I consider my gender to be in-between male and female. Phyisically, I'm male, although I wouldn't say that
my body was typically shaped for a male. But psychologically, I've never felt like a "man" (or a "boy" before that).
But I don't feel like a "woman", either - I'm not even sure what that would mean for me. So, I've come to
think of my gender as being in the middle. And there are lots of other people who similarly identify:
genderqueers and androgynes, for instance. I'm curious, though, whether people are capable of seeing
people like me as of another gender - not male, not female, but something different.

Some people define their gender as that which lies below the belt. Others define it as that which lies above the neck. For me, how a person chooses to identify doesn't matter to me. I'm about people and gender makes no difference.

There's bisexuals.. why not bi-genders or all-gendered? The main thing is self-acceptance, not definition anyway. I have no problem embracing someone other gendered if that's the way they wish to view themselves.

Celeste

_____________________________

"Oh, so it's just like
Rock, paper, scissors."

He laughed. "You are the wisest woman I know."

(in reply to alleypussykat)

Post #: 2

RE: Does anyone think there are more than two genders? - 4/2/2006 5:15:48 PM

LadiesBladewing

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Joined: 8/31/2005
Status: offline

Actually, there are several behavioral and sexual psychology studies that give a range of anywhere from 6-9 human psychosexual genders, encapsulated in 4 general physiological " genitalia types" - male genitalia, female genitalia, male and female genitalia (hermaphrodite), and nominal/non-existant genitalia (androgen). Most of the bases of these studies can be found on PubMed or in your local college library, if you're interested in seeing what the academic community has to say.

Lady Zephyr

_____________________________

"Should have", "could have", "would have" and "can't" may be the most dangerous phrases in the English language.
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(in reply to alleypussykat)

Post #: 3

RE: Does anyone think there are more than two genders? - 4/2/2006 5:31:23 PM

MasterFireMaam

Posts: 5587
Joined: 3/1/2006
From: Charleston, WV
Status: offline

Native Americans, at one time (but not so much since Christianity), felt that there were 4 genders. Male body with Male heart, FwithF, MwithF and Fwith M. The term "berdache" (originally a derogatory term) has been used in reference to the "mixed" genders, mostly in reference to the MwithF occurance.

Berdache were not seen as outcasts in their society. Instead, they were embraced and, often, thought to be special. It wasn't uncommon for berdache to be medicine men and, the more rare FwtihM to become warriors.

This site seems to have accurate info, based on what I remember from the book I read called "Two Spirit People".
http://www.nu-woman.com/berdache.htm

The book: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0252066456/sr=8-1/qid=1144024167/ref=sr_1_1/103-0893914-4295848?%5Fencoding=UTF8

Fire
PS, a cute term I've heard for a woman like me who is not quite a dyke but not quite totally femme is: 'tweenie. LOL

< Message edited by MasterFireMaam -- 4/2/2006 5:34:58 PM >

_____________________________

The power of who we are can be intoxicating. The power of who we could be is humbling.
-----
Ms Relationship Books
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BDSM How-To Books

(in reply to alleypussykat)

Post #: 4

RE: Does anyone think there are more than two genders? - 4/2/2006 7:34:44 PM

MstrssPassion

Posts: 2444
Joined: 1/1/2004
From: West Palm Beach, FL
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Often 5 genders are mentioned. Here are a couple of interesting reads...(portions copied here)

http://www.meridianmagazine.com/ideas/010420gender.html
Radical Theorists and Policy Makers Promote Idea of "Five Genders"

Most people assume the word "gender" is directly interchangeable with the word "sex," and that there are only two "genders", male and female. Most people will be very surprised to hear that some say there are more than two "genders." Five years ago at the UN Habitat Conference (Istanbul, 1996), radical non-governmental organizations aggressively promoted "five genders." Though hotly debated at Istanbul, the "five genders" lost. Even so, the attempt to stretch the definition of "gender" continues unabated within the halls of the UN, on college campuses and even in city governments.

Radical theorists decided long ago that the word "sex" was too confining. "Sex" is based in nature, determined by the chromosomes and almost always confirmed by bodily characteristics. [In rare instances some children are born with indeterminate sexual characteristics. This condition is frequently called "hermaphrodism."] Because "sex" is limited to only male and female and is based in nature, social tinkerers determined to change the word to something more malleable and so "gender" was born. The idea is that "gender" is a social construct and can be changed through education and law.

According to its promoters, the "five genders" are heterosexual men, heterosexual women, homosexual men, homosexual women, and transsexuals (those who have had sex change operations). To promote this idea, six years ago at a conference in Houston, Texas, something called the "International Bill of Gender Rights" was inaugurated. According to its framers the International Gender Bill of Rights are "universal rights which can be claimed and exercised by every human being."

http://www.scarleteen.com/politics/gender.html
<excerpt>
Most people don't know it, but there are more than two sexes, and way more than two genders. One scientist, Dr. Anne Fausto-Sterling, says that there are five commonly occurring genetic sexes (meaning that they are indicated by DNA) that can happen naturally due to biology. There are also many people who do not feel like our culture's options for gender, male and female, fit who they feel themselves to be. In short, while most people are raised either as a boy or as a girl, there are plenty of people for whom "boy" or "girl" is not the most accurate description, in some cases for their biology, in other cases for what they feel themselves to be inside.

_____________________________

MstrssPassion

(in reply to alleypussykat)

Post #: 5

RE: Does anyone think there are more than two genders? - 4/2/2006 7:44:34 PM

SterlingSunLight

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Joined: 3/5/2006
Status: offline

Gender is complicated because gender is socially constructed. A person's sex, on the other hand, is dictated by biology. I can't remember what Native American tribe I read this about but I read that gay men were accepted and treated with the respect that heterosexual couples were. The Native American's response to the question why they acted in this manner was something along the lines of "people are too precious to throw away."
I guess to answer your question, I think there are a great many different genders but a limited few different sexes. Hope that was the type of answer you were looking for!

-Sterling

(in reply to MstrssPassion)

Post #: 6

RE: Does anyone think there are more than two genders? - 4/2/2006 10:16:45 PM

RiotGirl

Posts: 3149
Status: offline

Never thought of it, though i have watched a few interesting shows on the Discovery shows on it. i understand that there isnt JUST men and women. i understand that gender is complicated for some people and some feel they are both or none.

To me, you are what you are. Though i've never understood genderqueer. And personally have little to no experience in this area. So i dont completely understand where you are coming from. Which doesnt mean i dont accept what you say. Just dont get how it is so. But i understand it IS so. And i wish you best on your journey.

(in reply to SterlingSunLight)

Post #: 7

RE: Does anyone think there are more than two genders? - 4/3/2006 5:19:06 AM

HCWT1

Posts: 161
Joined: 7/7/2005
Status: offline

Nobody has to comvince me

since iv'e been pushing the gender barrier for over thirty years.
Just makes it alot harder to find that special one,as theres still alot of prejudice out there.

(in reply to RiotGirl)

Post #: 8

RE: Does anyone think there are more than two genders? - 4/3/2006 8:01:12 AM

MysticalPhoenix

Posts: 212
Joined: 11/30/2005
From: Kelloggsville, Vanilla County MI
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: alleypussykat

I consider my gender to be in-between male and female. Phyisically, I'm male, although I wouldn't say that
my body was typically shaped for a male. But psychologically, I've never felt like a "man" (or a "boy" before that).
But I don't feel like a "woman", either - I'm not even sure what that would mean for me. So, I've come to
think of my gender as being in the middle. And there are lots of other people who similarly identify:
genderqueers and androgynes, for instance. I'm curious, though, whether people are capable of seeing
people like me as of another gender - not male, not female, but something different.

The short answer to that is, "No". Not in a binary culture obsessed with labels. Scientists can identify genders until the cows come home, but the average person is still going to look at the physical body, determine whether they believe there is indoor or outdoor plumbing and base their gender identification that. The average person hasn't the slightest idea between sex and gender-they use those terms interchangeably.

Part of the problem is that gender is not visible. And that the continuum of gender identify does not easily allow for placing people in little boxes with clear labels. Sex, except in cases of intersexed individuals, is fairly easy to determine based on genitalia. I have heard it said in the TG community that you can't really identify another person's gender-they have to tell you what it is.

Gender is definitely a case of people seeing what you appear to be and not what you really are.

Phoenix

< Message edited by MysticalPhoenix -- 4/3/2006 8:02:49 AM >

_____________________________

---------------------------------------------------------
Every one sees what you appear to be, few really know what you are.

(in reply to alleypussykat)

Post #: 9

RE: Does anyone think there are more than two genders? - 4/3/2006 8:41:41 AM

cillatwhite

Posts: 5
Joined: 1/8/2005
Status: offline

Some people defy labelling
Artists are such people
Stretching society's limitations
Not accepting them
Creating their own art without restriction
They define the new society
Similarly those who chose to define their own sexuality or gender refuse to accept the limitations put on them
Over the last thirty years queer culture has stretched those boundaries
Emerging from a century of Victorian thought where society tried to limit
boundaries and an individual's possibilities
In this age of placing new limitations we must all be aware of some in society
who would put us back in the closet and define our lives for us

As a transgendered artist , I like the name tgirl , I define my own version of gender and sexuality and encourage others to do so too
To me there is no question there are more genders than two , how many ? , well as many as there are queers
I have posted in my journal for today a copy of Berdache by Wendy Susan Parker
it says more than I ever could

Princess Priscilla

Native cultures embrace the notion of an opposite gender identity different from one’s anatomy without any implied partner preference. North American native Indian spiritual philosophy not only accepts a third gender status, it almost encourages it. This gender was viewed by most tribes as having an almost sacred status. Since the berdache could mix characteristics of both genders, they had a special status as if blessed by the gods. They were thought to be the middle gender and seen as prophets and visionaries having a mystical, psychic vision into the future. They were often consulted by tribal elders and chieftains because they were thought to have a kind of universal knowledge and special connection to the great spirit.

(in reply to MysticalPhoenix)

Post #: 10

RE: Does anyone think there are more than two genders? - 4/3/2006 9:00:18 AM

thetammyjo

Posts: 6322
Joined: 9/8/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: alleypussykat

I consider my gender to be in-between male and female. Phyisically, I'm male, although I wouldn't say that
my body was typically shaped for a male. But psychologically, I've never felt like a "man" (or a "boy" before that).
But I don't feel like a "woman", either - I'm not even sure what that would mean for me. So, I've come to
think of my gender as being in the middle. And there are lots of other people who similarly identify:
genderqueers and androgynes, for instance. I'm curious, though, whether people are capable of seeing
people like me as of another gender - not male, not female, but something different.

Gender is really a social construct or an identity -- it can or cannot have a relationship to biological sex.

Fact is that biological sex is not just 2 categories either it turns out. There are a good number of intersexed people out there who until recently were given a sex after birth -- sometimes things went ok, somethings things (hormones) didn't go ok and the secondary sex characteristics didn't matched the assigned sex or the trained gender.

I think we as human beings like things neatly boxed up so we can deal with things easily. I don't think human beings or society is this easy.

You need to worry first about feeling comfortable with yourself... sadly that might not match what your immediate culture agrees with and that can be difficult then. One way around it is to change cultures, find a place where you fit better and can be yourself more easily.

_____________________________

Love, Peace, Hugs, Kisses, Whips & Chains,

TammyJo

Check out my website at http://www.thetammyjo.com Or www.tammyjoeckhart.com

And my LJ where I post fiction in progress if you "friend" me at http://thetammyjo.livejournal.com/

(in reply to alleypussykat)

Post #: 11

RE: Does anyone think there are more than two genders? - 4/3/2006 11:26:00 AM

DigitBox

Posts: 154
Joined: 3/18/2006
Status: offline

I tend to see gender as being a continum rather than absolute polarities. Lots of men, women and trans folk all express different degrees of masulinity and femmininity.

I tend to be a femme a good portion of the time, but I have an inner tomboy which shows itself on occassion.

Actually I think that flexibility is what kept me from just slitting my wrists from desperation between my teen years and when I finally transitioned to live full time as a woman. Plus it was helpful when mid transition I was wearing mens clothes and being called mam by people on the street. I was able to rationalize it as just being "Butch girl" instead of thinking of myself as in male mode. It was kind of nice.

Sometimes I like to mix things up in my appearence within Fet/BDSM. So I'll wear combat boots, a mans t-shirt, jeans, a cute pony tail, similar to the one in my picture here, and heavy flamboyant make up. It's just this big clash of butch and femme and I love it since it looks soooo punky and defiant.

(in reply to alleypussykat)

Post #: 12

RE: Does anyone think there are more than two genders? - 4/3/2006 11:39:46 AM

amayos

Posts: 1553
Joined: 6/2/2004
From: New England
Status: offline

Of genders, there can be many. Of sexes, there are only two.

I like to speak in twos, personally.

(in reply to alleypussykat)

Post #: 13

RE: Does anyone think there are more than two genders? - 4/3/2006 11:48:06 AM

RubberWitch

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Joined: 7/27/2005
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PeterPan, chapter 17. "the mauve ones are boys and the white ones are girls, and the blue ones are just little sillies who are not sure what they are.”

And before anyone comments, I'm most certainly blue

J

(in reply to amayos)

Post #: 14

RE: Does anyone think there are more than two genders? - 4/3/2006 2:06:59 PM

philosophy

Posts: 5284
Joined: 2/15/2004
Status: offline

...i blame Aristotle, and that damned two value logic that bears his name. There are too many things in our world that are defined only in opposition to each other...male/female, hot/cold, with me/against me, friend/foe.......i think it's high time we sorted ourselves out some more grown up ways of referencing things......

(in reply to RubberWitch)

Post #: 15

RE: Does anyone think there are more than two genders? - 4/3/2006 2:17:55 PM

BitchCat

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Joined: 3/30/2006
Status: offline

Yes.

(in reply to philosophy)

Post #: 16

RE: Does anyone think there are more than two genders? - 4/3/2006 3:54:22 PM

AyselFW

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Joined: 4/2/2006
Status: offline

Wow this caught My attention so quickly..I've always thought I could've been male, altho I love dresses and skirts.. because their long..I'm a real mixture which most days leaves Me confused. I am attracted more to males then females altho I wouldn't consider Myself heterosexual. Do I believe there are more then one Gender.. the definition of Gender meaning not physical or enviormental(society) but within Our minds.. Yes I do.. As for genitals thats also dependant on a number of things.. could someone be born as a female with more male hormones yes.. does this make that person a male no.. In My mind there are no definate genders.. you may be born male or female physically but what gender you are comes from within. I am very female in some ways, very male in others.. mostly I am Me..Theirs no need to define ourselves.. just *one* question should be asked..are *you* happy being *you*. If not then find that which makes you happy and become it...even if no-ones ever done it before..

(in reply to BitchCat)

Post #: 17

RE: Does anyone think there are more than two genders? - 4/3/2006 4:57:45 PM

kass3

Posts: 35
Joined: 11/2/2005
Status: offline

Some progress has been made in this direction in Australia. There is a person named Alexan who speaks at confrences around the country (I'll post their last name when I find the article from the paper, I'm writing this from memory) who was granted an X on their passport instead of a gender. It's the first in the world. Alexan was born a hermaphrodite, raised a male but then decided to choose neither gender in adult life, it was a high court decision to allow this. I believe others have been allowed to follow suit. However it's important to note that it is a physical anomaly that allowed this development not a mental one.

(in reply to AyselFW)

Post #: 18

RE: Does anyone think there are more than two genders? - 4/3/2006 6:11:01 PM

HCWT1

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Joined: 7/7/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: kass3

Some progress has been made in this direction in Australia. There is a person named Alexan who speaks at confrences around the country (I'll post their last name when I find the article from the paper, I'm writing this from memory) who was granted an X on their passport instead of a gender. It's the first in the world. Alexan was born a hermaphrodite, raised a male but then decided to choose neither gender in adult life, it was a high court decision to allow this. I believe others have been allowed to follow suit. However it's important to note that it is a physical anomaly that allowed this development not a mental one.

Of much interest to me as on the 23 apr 1997 i was issued with a passport upon request,that has no reference to sex in any way.where it says (sex/sexe)it is totaly blank.There are very good reasons for this that i will not go into in open forum.
Unlike in other countries it is alot easier in NZ to get these sorts of things sorted.No courts required,just comunication between doctors
and the goverment.

(in reply to kass3)

Post #: 19

RE: Does anyone think there are more than two genders? - 4/3/2006 8:03:24 PM

alleypussykat

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Joined: 10/2/2004
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If one believes in mind-brain identity, which I certainly do, then ever psychological property has a
physical, biological counterpart. There was a small study of (dead) male-to-female transsexuals that found
brains that were, in a certain respect at least, more female than male. There is evidence suggesting
that gender-variant people are subjected to hormonal miscues in the womb, resulting in
different prenatal brain development. So, eventually, we may be able to see physical evidence
that people are inter-gendered.

But, as has been noted, people categorize others according to how they look, not according to their
genitals or brain physiology. "Mistakes" at gender-attribution are seen as particularly embarrassing,
although when it happens to me I typically find it kind of fun. I hope we can work toward a
future when people are more relaxed about such things, and where more people "come out" as
inter-gendered, so that people can get used to our existence.

(in reply to HCWT1)

Post #: 20

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