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quote:
ORIGINAL: MasterFireMaam
Native Americans, at one time (but not so much since Christianity), felt that there were 4 genders. Male body with Male heart, FwithF, MwithF and Fwith M. The term "berdache" (originally a derogatory term) has been used in reference to the "mixed" genders, mostly in reference to the MwithF occurance.Berdache were not seen as outcasts in their society. Instead, they were embraced and, often, thought to be special. It wasn't uncommon for berdache to be medicine men and, the more rare FwtihM to become warriors.
I wanted to expand a bit on this.
First, this word is still considered derogatory to most Native Americans. Hearing the word "berdache" used casually in speaking makes me flinch a little. Reread the paragraph replacing the word "berdache" with "nigger" or "wetback" and you'll see how it can be very offensive. It's probably not the best idea to use the term in casual converse with Native American speakers. It's better to use the phrase "two spirit" or simply use an English translation like "multi-gendered."
But the essence of what you're saying is pretty much accurate, though I haven't seen the difference you speak of with M to/with F, or F to/with M. Being that most two-spirits weren't looking for a transition from one gender to the other, nor did they identify as one gender with assets of the other. They identified as a different gender in the first place without comparing themselves to the typical "male" or "female".
From an eastern cherokee perspective, you are born "male", "female", or "ta ado" (two spirit). Ta adoas are either hvnas ganegaos (absent of the flesh) and identify as absent of the restraints of gender (normally placed in "counseling" positions and spend a lot of time directing people in vision quests and helping others learn to meditate), or lvladi ganegaos (higher of the flesh) and identify as understanding more complexities of gender (normally placed in shaman positions and spend a lot of time in healing ails of the body, assisting with birth, and treating wounds).
It was thought that hvnas weren't burdened by having a human body and so could reach a higher level of spiritual enlightenment, and lvladis better understood the human body, and so made better shaman.
The problem in using this as an extention of gender is that these belief systems, just like western civilization, are based on how society defines gender. Just like girls and boys are brought up playing with dolls and cars. Tribal children are brought up engaging in the activities that support the societal assumption. A baby born with a significant lack of genitalia is raised believing they are more spiritually enlightened. They are taken on their first vision quest much earlier in life. They are permitted access to the sweat lodge without having to earn it. A baby born with both sets of genitalia is raised believing they are in better touch with matters of the body. They are brought up learning the intricacies of medicine. While other children are learning basic living skills, hvnas are meditating with peyote and lvladis are assisting with child birth. They are learning to live the role that their society puts them in.
It comes back down to gender being a product of the society one lives in. Whether it's western civilization of only 2 genders, or a tribal civilization of 4, it's all socially defined. Nothing more or less.
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IMO, IMHO, YMMV, AFAIK, to me, I see it as, from my perspective, it's been my experience, I only speak for myself, (and all other disclaimers here).
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RE: Does anyone think there are more than two genders? - 
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RE: Does anyone think there are more than two genders? - 
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