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Tolerance - 4/2/2006 5:14:34 PM   
MHOO314


Posts: 3628
Joined: 9/26/2004
Status: offline 		perhaps not the place for this, perhaps so---
 
NOTE: this is not a place for flaming, but hopefully a lesson--this is not a rant, but a lesson--
 
We all have a secret, we have alternative lifestyles--shhhh---don't tell anyone--we have dirty little secrets, Men beat women, women torture mens cocks and balls---people drink urine and are happy to do so, people eat shit and are thrilled at the chance for that, Women rule over men, why we even nail "balls to the wall"---women SERVE men willingly OMG in the 21st century?? WTH??  People have 3,4,5 in their homes? Their lives? Their beds? OMG WTH??
 
<smiles> now that I have your attention--we run from the vanilla world because they don't understand--we seek community for acceptance, a haven, a place to be what W/we are-- and yet, we inflict our vanilla beliefs--not opinions, for that is vastly different--our vanilla "sniffiness" on others--why? why? When we enter this world, most bets are off yet-- W/we attack--I am talking about reasonable alternative lifestyles--there are indeed those styles we all do not tolerate--for even the most extreme of us cannot accept that path---BUT--who can judge?
 
 
 

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RE: Tolerance - 4/2/2006 5:32:43 PM   
Evanesce


Posts: 2325
Joined: 9/14/2005
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quote:

now that I have your attention--we run from the vanilla world because they don't understand--we seek community for acceptance, a haven, a place to be what W/we are-- and yet, we inflict our vanilla beliefs--not opinions, for that is vastly different--our vanilla "sniffiness" on others--why? why? When we enter this world, most bets are off yet-- W/we attack--I am talking about reasonable alternative lifestyles--there are indeed those styles we all do not tolerate--for even the most extreme of us cannot accept that path---BUT--who can judge?

 
We all can.  And we all do.  I don't run from the vanilla world to this one.  Nor do I seek acceptance and "community" amongst those who practice BDSM.  I might seek understanding.  I might seek people with whom I have specific areas of my life in common, but if I were seeking and expecting to find absolute acceptance within the BDSM "community," I'd be a fool.  There is no more or less acceptance amongst those who live as we do than there is in any other type of community.  We are, as a group, no better and no worse than the general public as a whole.
 
Why do we judge?  Because we're human.  'Tis the nature of the beast.

< Message edited by Evanesce -- 4/2/2006 5:33:40 PM >

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RE: Tolerance - 4/2/2006 5:39:07 PM   
KnightofMists


Posts: 7149
Joined: 7/29/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MHOO314

<smiles> now that I have your attention--we run from the vanilla world because they don't understand--we seek community for acceptance, a haven, a place to be what W/we are-- and yet, we inflict our vanilla beliefs--not opinions, for that is vastly different--our vanilla "sniffiness" on others--why? why? When we enter this world, most bets are off yet-- W/we attack--I am talking about reasonable alternative lifestyles--there are indeed those styles we all do not tolerate--for even the most extreme of us cannot accept that path---BUT--who can judge?  
 


You might not try being too universal in your so called "Lesson"... There is more than a few that don't run from Mainstream society, some actually confront it!  Of course there are alot that do not disclose what they do in there sex lives mmmmm come to think of it... none of my co-workers have ever told me anything about their sex lives... should I assume they are all kinky and are running from the vanilla world.  Fact is.. We as individuals share our intimate sexual lives with very very few people... it's indeed a rare person that is very public about what they do in their intimate life.  Not disclosing who one is does not equate to running!  Some are not embarassed or feel the need to run from the so called "vanilla world".  Some just feel it's no one's business what they do in their bedroom, dungeon, in the forest on the wild side.

I am still trying to understand what lesson you are trying to express.  "Who can judge?"  is not a lesson but a question.  It really is a very simple answer actually.... it's "ALL of US" 

To me the proper question is Not "Who can Judge?"  But  

 "How can we Judge Effectively for ourselves?"

My answer... by building characters strenghts such as "Open-Mindedness, Fairness, Kindness, Mercy, Prudence, Bravery, Love"   and the list goes on!

but  this is just my opinion and judgement

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RE: Tolerance - 4/2/2006 5:39:12 PM   
Cloudz


Posts: 836
Joined: 9/13/2005
Status: offline 		Why do people judge?

Fear, usually.

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RE: Tolerance - 4/2/2006 5:46:14 PM   
slavejali


Posts: 2918
Status: offline 		I dont understand the point you are trying to make Mistress Hathor? Is it that people no matter who, judge things they dont understand?
The parts that are confusing to me in your OP is the "running from the vanilla world as they dont understand". If that means I dont discuss BDSM issues with vanilla people, that would be true for me, I wouldnt see a point to that....but then you add...that BDSM people then project vanilla idealogies on other BDSM people...could you give me an example of that?

As far as the word "tolerant" goes, Im pretty accepting of how people choose to live their lives..however I am "intolerant" of "supporting" what I feel is against my own principles..which has nothing to do with being involved in BDSM or being vanilla...its about living with integrity.

< Message edited by slavejali -- 4/2/2006 5:50:35 PM >

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RE: Tolerance - 4/2/2006 5:52:14 PM   
fastlane


Posts: 2159
Joined: 5/26/2005
Status: offline 		I read your post MH, but didn't really quite grasp your question. So, I'll just "HI" and not comment...Wow, that's a first!
I hope all is well with you and the lucky Boy!
Hugs, Kevin

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RE: Tolerance - 4/2/2006 5:56:32 PM   
ownedgirlie


Posts: 9184
Joined: 2/5/2006
Status: offline 		We live in a world of judgment.  Everybody judges.  However, how we judge is a different story.  i think i see what you are getting at here.  What might be a need for one person might appear insane or abusive to another, and judgment occurs.  So often such judgment occurs without ever really seeking the truth of a situation.  But that is human nature as well, i suppose.

i have been in forums before (both BDSM and vanilla) where the subject of "water sports" came up and everyone "ewwww'd' it.  Such a concept did not fit into their paragym.  It was simply outside their scope.  At the time it was outside of mine, as well.  Never did i think i would be kneeling before a man, drinking from him.  What may seem wrong to someone today, might be the very thing he/she begs next year. 

Someone commented to me recently that my Master is cruel because sometimes when i am laying at his feet he puts them on my face.  What that person didn't know was that the first time this happened, i laid down and placed them on my face myself, because it eased me to be so beneath him that day.  He asked me about it later, and i explained why i did it, and now on occasion he does that when he sees my world is spinning too fast.  It calms me.  To someone else, it looked like he thinks so little of me that he would do something like that.  To me, i see he thinks so much of me that he would do something like that.

The thing is, we do all judge, but sometimes that judgment takes place without knowing the big picture; without understanding the truth.

To get really philosophical, there is a Chapter in The Four Agreements, by Miguel Ruiz, called "Don't Take Things Personally."   i would be wise to remember this myself.  He speaks about everyone having their own story - which is their life and their history and the way they see the world as a result.  i have my "story."  Others have their "stories."  We jugde others and actions based on our own stories.  So, i might see something you are doing, and i can only weigh it and measure it against my "story" (meaning, life as i see it, know it, and understand it).  But this is not the truth, because i am not weighing it against your story, which is entirely different.  So if i judge, i run a high risk of being wrong, unless of course i see the world through your eyes.

i could go on, but i'm getting too wordy.

Interesting post, Ms. Hathor...thought provoking.


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RE: Tolerance - 4/2/2006 6:01:24 PM   
Angeni


Posts: 88
Joined: 3/11/2006
Status: offline 		Greetings Mistress Hathor :)
 
quote:

  we run from the vanilla world because they don't understand

  If I may be allowed to comment.  I see two seperate statements here. One that because we have chosen to live differently, that we are running from those who dont? And second, that those who choose a vanilla lifestyle don' understand ours? In my own experience, I actually did the opposite. After the death of my Master, I ran from the life that I had been living and buried myself in the vanilla world. Mainly because I did not understand. And yet, it took someone within the vanilla world to show me that I was living a lie and running from who I actually was. It can go both ways. 
 
quote:

we seek community for acceptance, a haven, a place to be what W/we are

I do not seek acceptance from others, only myself. However, I do seek understanding of and from others.
 
quote:

  and yet, we inflict our vanilla beliefs--not opinions, for that is vastly different--our vanilla "sniffiness" on others--why

I can not speak for others here, only for myself. My beliefs and opinions are closely tied together to the extreme that I can sometimes confuse the two. Often I have to step back and look at it more objectively to see where the line is drawn between the two. Yet, I do not seperate them between vanilla and BDSM. I do not assign a vanilla label to a belief or an opinion. They just are that. Opinions and beliefs.
 
quote:

  When we enter this world, most bets are off yet-- W/we attack--I am talking about reasonable alternative lifestyles--there are indeed those styles we all do not tolerate--for even the most extreme of us cannot accept that path---BUT--who can judge?


For myself, when I ask for the opinion of another, I am in reality, asking them to judge what I have to say. If I take offense at their words, then I should ask myself why.
 
Just my humble opinion and belief :)

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RE: Tolerance - 4/2/2006 6:12:08 PM   
yourMissTress


Posts: 1665
Joined: 6/14/2005
From: Nashville, TN
Status: offline 		MH, a group of us had this exact discussion last night and I believe it's a subject that should be brought up often to keep us all aware of  "my kink is ok but your's is not" pitfall.  Thank you.
 
Humans have a tendency to accept that which they are comfortable with and reject that which is foreign to them.  Human nature is not immediately tolerant of new ideas.  So it's not surprising that although one has accepted the fact that they enjoy being beaten and believe that it's harmless, they may also hold that diaper play is just too far and anyone that does it is wacko.  It's also not surprising that they don't see their own duplicity when they are crying and whining because they are not accepted.



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RE: Tolerance - 4/2/2006 6:31:33 PM   
foxnotinsox


Posts: 84
Joined: 4/29/2005
From: eastern Ontario, Canada
Status: offline 		We all judge and make decisions about things .. it is in how we react that can be either negatively or positively judgemental. If we did not judge, then how could we decide what is right and what is wrong? at least for our own selves....

What I think you are alluding to however is the tendency to *make* decisions for others based on our own beliefs .. that what is good for me must be good for another, or what is bad must be bad for all. Being tolerant has little to do with making judgements. It is about acknowledging the choice of another. For instance, if I found out a friend of mine was gay, I could say "well! that's just sick!" or I could say "wonderful! hey, you want to go guy-watching some time?" ..... In both, I judged that him being gay was not for me .. yet the tolerance was heheh different.

As for being highly judgemental of things to which we have no experience, yes that's true ... but hmmmm when you really think about it, it's only kinky the first time around ;]

oxox,foX
Veni vidi veni

< Message edited by foxnotinsox -- 4/2/2006 6:33:21 PM >

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RE: Tolerance - 4/2/2006 6:39:10 PM   
Sensualips


Posts: 1013
Joined: 10/8/2005
Status: offline 		I guess I don't get the lesson either.  Could you explain "we inflict our vanilla beliefs," "sniffiness" on others?

Or are you trying to say hey, we all should accept and not judge each other because we all know what it is like to be judged by mainstream society?

And also, who is deciding what is "reasonable."

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RE: Tolerance - 4/2/2006 7:11:19 PM   
CERCKL


Posts: 1039
Joined: 3/4/2006
Status: offline 		I am not quite certain I fully comprehend the point trying to be made by the OP. I do think we compare/contrast to understand others and situations...how we deal with those judgements are important.

quote:

  "my kink is ok but your's is not"


Sort of like when I was younger and involved in alternative music lifestyles... "Conform to my noncormist ways or be a conformist" perspectives I found then...and Miss Tress, you can put away the cookies...though lotus and I would still be priveledged to buy you a mocha and conversation if You ever come out this way...
C

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RE: Tolerance - 4/2/2006 7:33:03 PM   
SirKenin


Posts: 2994
Joined: 10/31/2004
From: Barrie, ON Canada
Status: offline 		I embrace both the vanilla world and My own.  I do not stick My nose up at anybody.  I do not judge anyone, because who is to say that they are not right and I am wrong?  I am a wierdo.  I am not normal and I freely admit it.  I do not want others judging Me or looking down on Me.  Why should I do it to others?  In My way of thinking that is the way it should always be.

< Message edited by SirKenin -- 4/2/2006 7:34:09 PM >

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RE: Tolerance - 4/2/2006 7:59:54 PM   
MHOO314


Posts: 3628
Joined: 9/26/2004
Status: offline 		My question is to spark conversation--I use the term run as nothing more than we seek inward versus professing outward-- as for expressing vanilla beliefs--an example would be:
 
"your Master does xxx, I do not believe in that because it is xxx."
 
hence personal beliefs are extended to anothers life--( I call that sniffiness, or the nose in the air)
 
again it is the thought not the words--and the question is rhetorical--nothing more--but one well worth debate--you may not "run" because you are comfortable, but that does not mean another does not..
 
but in the end the answer to the question "who can judge"---is no one--for no one is better or worse. Opinions versus judgements.
 
What is run to one, is normalality to another, what is openess to one is secrecy to another.
 
 

< Message edited by MHOO314 -- 4/2/2006 8:01:41 PM >

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RE: Tolerance - 4/2/2006 8:41:49 PM   
RiotGirl


Posts: 3149
Status: offline 		i believe tolerance goes both ways.  i also believe that it usually doesnt.  i hear alot on "non tolerance towards us" (us being general) yet no tolerance is given back.  i for one, does not run from the vanilla world or even confront it.  i am happy and comfortable in both and actually mesh the two together.  Sure i get alot of intolerant views.  But thats okay as it is Thier view and they are entitled to it.  i for one does not think of BDSM or this world as a dirty little secret so i will not hide it as.  Yet at the same time, while i do not speak of my vanilla sexual acts in the bedroom i do not speak of my bdsm sexual acts in the bedroom.  Sex is sex and it is not something i share, unless of course i'm in the midst of girl talk and we're going over penis size and what not <wicked grin>  i tolerate their views as they tolerate mine. You know i dont press my views on others when i speak to them about it, i will stand my ground and state my views but if we come to a disagreement so be it.  i've had several disagreements when it comes to my participation in the lifestyle.  i've one friend who clearly thinks its abuse and i clearly think he's abit ignorant of it.  Which is okay.  i understand he thinks its bad and he understands i think he's retarded.  We both tolerate each other's views.  Course i suppose i dont realy have "negative" views when it comes to vanilla life.  i dont see anything "Wrong" with it.  Or anything bad about it.  i do think that even in vanilla relationships there are dominant and submissive roles (that often switches back and forth).  Which i told my sister and she clearly thinks i'm out of my mind and i clearly think she is afraid to be honest.  And its left there. 

i dont understand whats wrong with allowing ppl to believe or do what is right for them.  Its not like i have to believe it so whats the big deal?  If everyone thought the same.. we'd all be robots.  There are alot of things on this planet that i think is wrong.  Some of them i can tolerate, like cheating.  Other things i cant.  The ones i can tolerate i allow around me, the ones i cant i do not allow around me.  Its that simple.  People are going to do, think, say, and act as people are going to do.  What i say or think, believe, or do will not change that.  Why fight something, or get upset or be rude, an ass, or a bitch, or be "intolerant" because they will not conform to your believes.  Unless of course, that behavior is acceptable to you.  For me, though, it is unacceptable and illogical.

To add: we CAN judge.  We can judge.. what is right for us, what is okay for us.  But we havent a leg to stand on when it comes to what is right for others.  And i agree MH no one, or thing is better then another.  Its all perspective.  Its all subjective.  It is in a way the way bible treats sin.  It is ALL sin, no sin is worse then another.  Whether you're out killing some one or simply lying.  It is all the same.  And that is how i feel on "better" or "worse" or "faults" or w/e.  Nothing is worse then another.  No one is bad or better.  Generally stated.  Personally - one thing maybe be better for ME.. but that does not mean it IS better on the whole.  For example.  Drinking is bad for ME, but that does not mean drinking is bad in general.  And so it goes with everything.  A certian person may be "bad" for me, but that does not mean they ARE bad.  Just as i may be bad for others.  The topic makes me think of  "class" and how intolerant the classes are of each other.  Upper class thinks poorly of lower class and lower class thinks poorly of upper class.  Quite funny actually.  Each intolerant of each other.  Its all the same everywhere you go.  And its not bad, its just bad for "me"  i choose to be as openminded as i can and hope that i live up to my expectations of being openminded.  The best we can do when confronted with something that is hard to be openminded about is to learn and try and understand it.  Is to try and put yourself in "others" shoes.  i've done it with scat, i've done it with poly, i've done it with beasility, i've done it with diaper fetishes.  i have tried to learn why it is enjoyed, whats the kicker with it.  And Granted they arent for ME, i can now understand why they "are" and accept and be tolerant of them.  Hey even with the Gorean lifestyle.  Personally at first i viewed it as a sci fi novel type thing, role played in life.  Yet, i tried to learn about it, understand it and i did to a point.  Its now something i can say hey that "could" be for me.  Now i respect the Gorean lifestyle and if i hadnt taken the time to understand it, i'd of still be sitting with intolerant judgemental views that were based on what?


< Message edited by RiotGirl -- 4/2/2006 9:16:35 PM >

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RE: Tolerance - 4/2/2006 8:58:43 PM   
RiotGirl


Posts: 3149
Status: offline 		Owned, i really liked what you said.  And i think its a very valuable lesson, one i would like to learn myelf and i appreciate you sharing as it is not something i have thought of myself.  Judging based on "my story" and not "their story"  Althought i do try and learn other's stories, i do as well judge.  Probably based on my story, which as you stated, isnt fair nor right.  What i do judge for, is not the usual "bad" or "right" as in who they are.. i judge as in "bad or right" for me.  Is this person "bad" for me or is this person "good" for me.  There are some things i will judge quite quickly.  Settings i walk into, what is going on in a situation.  i have even judged people as untrustworthy in a matter of minutes.  i have judge them as manipulators and liars.  Yet, they are my own private judgements and ones i hold to myself and ones i ALWAYS let play out.  For example a woman i met a year and a half ago.  Did not like her upon meeting her, my quick judgement wasnt nice and i deemed her untrustworthy.  A person i would not depend on, nor share secrets with nor who i felt had any loyalty.  Did not know why.  Though it was how i "judged" her, i did not let it change how i treated her.  i always treated her with respect and in a sense i gave her the benefit of the doubt, even though i kept myself closely gaurded.  i was always kind, and thoughtful, helped her out alot.  Only because for one, i do not treat people wrongly, it is against my standards and two because no matter what i thought - she had done nothing to deserve it.  i dont know if i am explaining this right.  She was also unavoidable.  She was the wife of one of my boyfriend's friends.  No matter if she wasnt, i always let things play out.  i never act until i am sure my judgement is correct.  And the actions of course would be to simply remove myself from the situation.  Things have played out and she is as i have always thought.  It is unfortunate for the one that got hurt in the process.  Do i think this lady is a terrible person?  Is bad?  Nope.  She is just not a person i want in my life.  She just isnt for me. 

Arg, i do hope i've explained this correctly.  And i do appreciate your thoughts Owned.  i think you spoke them terrifically.

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RE: Tolerance - 4/2/2006 9:54:54 PM   
Alumbrado


Posts: 5560
Status: offline 		Tolerance isn't a flag to be waved or a universal creed ... it is just a parameter in how far we trust our judgements. 

Some things should not be tolerated, other things should be given plenty of tolerance..on their merits, not on their superficial appearances.


< Message edited by Alumbrado -- 4/2/2006 9:55:52 PM >

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RE: Tolerance - 4/2/2006 11:35:40 PM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline 		You just have to look at the 'Forgot You Have a Wife' thread to realise that tolerance exists no more in the life style than out of the life style.

People in the life style are a reflection of their values and politics they bring into the life style and has little to do with life style per se.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 4/2/2006 11:36:16 PM >

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RE: Tolerance - 4/3/2006 12:11:40 AM   
NeedToUseYou


Posts: 2297
Joined: 12/24/2005
From: None of your business
Status: offline 		If one doesn't judge anything to be wrong, then one tolerates everything. And that is just as bad as being intolerant. I don't believe anyone is univerally tolerant nor should be(think about what that would mean). Most people tolerances are almost all different as well so conflicts occur. This being a discussion medium, I think it would be useless if no one disagreed with each other, or for that matter flat out rejected anothers ideas(We don't all have to agree). So, I praise people objecting, agreeing, or just being confused. Afterall, if everyone feels the pressure of being non-judgemental on their shoulders then they are less likely to say how they feel, and in that context the boards become less a reflection of actual beliefs and more a monolith of a few posters belief system. What's to learn if no one points out where they think you are wrong?

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RE: Tolerance - 4/3/2006 12:19:38 AM   
ownedgirlie


Posts: 9184
Joined: 2/5/2006
Status: offline 		i agree with you, Need.  But i contend it is all in the delivery, isn't it? It is how one chooses to express their disagreement which i find important...and often telling.

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