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help for the inexperienced - 3/31/2010 7:03:56 AM

SirSvafnir

Posts: 10
Joined: 11/30/2008
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I wouldnt say the I am new to the lifestyle however I do lack experience in owning a slave. The thing is though that I have met a slave that I will potentially own and while talking last night she expressed to me that at times she doesnt feel that I make her place known to her. So my question is how can I get her to communicate what she needs to me without getting into topping from the bottom? Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated. Thanx

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Post #: 1

RE: help for the inexperienced - 3/31/2010 7:05:35 AM

Jeffff

Posts: 12600
Joined: 7/7/2007
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How about telling her what YOU need.

If she can give it, cool. .If not, she is not for you.

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(in reply to SirSvafnir)

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RE: help for the inexperienced - 3/31/2010 7:13:44 AM

LanceHughes

Posts: 4737
Joined: 2/12/2004
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Jeffff (all readers, please note that's the correct # of effs. LOL!) [and to the OP by reference]

In order for OP to follow your wise suggestion, he must first know what he wants! I'd take your suggestion further and recommend he do some introspection before trying to tell her.

ETA: Great profile (with one tiny exception..... please, please, please throw in the extra enter keys to make paragraphs!) Oh, and please do same to OP.

Given your status as a self-proclaimed "gorean master," I'm curious about this thread. My short answer, having read your profile, is to say, "Have her read the Gor series." And then (as Jeffff says) see if your desires can be met by her understanding of Gor.

< Message edited by LanceHughes -- 3/31/2010 7:33:21 AM >

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"Advice is what we ask for when we already know the answer, but wish we didn't." Erica Jong

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RE: help for the inexperienced - 3/31/2010 7:17:21 AM

Jeffff

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Joined: 7/7/2007
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Introspection is for pussy's!

He should just start beating her till he feels better. If he goes to far? Oh well. we sometimes learn hard way

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(in reply to LanceHughes)

Post #: 4

RE: help for the inexperienced - 3/31/2010 7:37:20 AM

LanceHughes

Posts: 4737
Joined: 2/12/2004
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Jeffff, I added quite a bit as you were responding. Please re-read my post #3 and make a comment on "self-proclaimed masters" if you'd be so kind to indulge this old Leatherman. LOL! (I ask only because I'm not feeling as "pithy" as you seem to be this morning.)

FLASH! Anteaters don't get much lubricant (in their diets) do they?

ETA: OP: I thought gor and gorean were spelt with leading upper case letters as in Gor and Gorean. Oh, and Master, also.

< Message edited by LanceHughes -- 3/31/2010 7:41:54 AM >

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"Train 'em the right way - my way." Lance Hughes
"Advice is what we ask for when we already know the answer, but wish we didn't." Erica Jong

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Post #: 5

RE: help for the inexperienced - 3/31/2010 7:48:16 AM

Wolf2Bear

Posts: 3204
Joined: 9/6/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: SirSvafnir

I wouldnt say the I am new to the lifestyle however I do lack experience in owning a slave. The thing is though that I have met a slave that I will potentially own and while talking last night she expressed to me that at times she doesnt feel that I make her place known to her. So my question is how can I get her to communicate what she needs to me without getting into topping from the bottom? Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated. Thanx

Erm.....ya thought about showing her as much openness to expect from her? Have you communicated what you want/need/expect so she knows? Have made her feel comfortable enough and she feels safe enough to be able to express her concerns without fear of reprisals?

_____________________________

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Take the pain
Take the pleasure
I'm the master of both
Close your eyes, not your mind
Let me into your soul
I'm gonna work it 'til your totally blown

(in reply to SirSvafnir)

Post #: 6

RE: help for the inexperienced - 3/31/2010 10:38:29 AM

DesFIP

Posts: 25191
Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
Status: offline

She can only top from the bottom if you slavishly do everything she asks.
Forget about that phrase as it really belongs to people who are so insecure they feel any expression of need or want by a sub is an attempt to wrest control. It isn't. It's giving you needed information.

When I tell him I need to stop and have lunch, he isn't being controlled by me. He's recognizing that if I'm not fed, my blood sugar will drop and my mood will go bad. That to keep me in top condition, I need a stable blood sugar. Beating me won't change my blood sugar levels.

Give her a phrase to use to tell you when she needs to feel your control. Such as "Please tighten the reins". And then get into a discussion as to what situations make her need tighter control. Stress at work so she needs more control at home? Institute rituals for her such as mantras to recite, positions to take while reciting them or whatever else works including making sure she eats properly during the day.

Half the battle here is knowing what's causing her to feel uncontrolled.

_____________________________

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Cynical and proud of it!

(in reply to Wolf2Bear)

Post #: 7

RE: help for the inexperienced - 3/31/2010 1:21:43 PM

Focus50

Posts: 3962
Joined: 12/28/2004
From: Newcastle, Australia
Status: offline

If your opening title about "inexperience" is something she's also aware of, then I don't really see the problem....

Seems to me the average fem/sub is more wary of poser and wannabe doms then the apparent "real deal" who simply lacks hands-on experience. A little honesty goes a loooong way here.

My first experiences (ie, as an inexperienced dom) of 'tftb' were strange. I'd find myself getting really angry about how a particular scene was unfolding without knowing why. I knew something was all wrong, I just didn't know what - and of course it ruined the scene. After a day or so of turning it over in my mind, I realised I was being manipulated into doing something her way. So we talked about it - there was nothing malicious from her part; more frustrated with my inexperience, I guess, and it manifested as tftb. And the tftb also horrifed her when she realised what I was angry about. And we laughed, and learned....

Experience has also taught me that when something is wrong and I don't know what, it's time to turn the heat down and discuss because there's NO WAY a scene will improve while I'm distracted with something I at least know is wrong.

Focus.

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Your food is for eating, not torturing. <my mum> (Errm, when I was a kid)

(in reply to DesFIP)

Post #: 8

RE: help for the inexperienced - 3/31/2010 6:32:30 PM

leadership527

Posts: 5026
Joined: 6/2/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: SirSvafnir
I wouldnt say the I am new to the lifestyle however I do lack experience in owning a slave. The thing is though that I have met a slave that I will potentially own and while talking last night she expressed to me that at times she doesnt feel that I make her place known to her. So my question is how can I get her to communicate what she needs to me without getting into topping from the bottom? Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated. Thanx

Wow, I may be a piss poor master... but my general strategy here is to sit her down and say, "Tell me, in detail, what it is that you need. Give me specific examples of ways in which you feel that I did not set the tone right. Or, conversely, specific examples of moments when it felt right to you. If you cannot answer immediately, then just sit there and gather your thoughts till you can. I'm perfectly content to be patient but don't even thinkabout wasting my time with hedging or topping-from-the-bottom bullshit. I've given you a specific command. Obey." Any "slave" that is so submissive that she cannot obey is just too ridiculous for me to cope with.

There is no "way" in which you make her place known to her. You either deal with her from a position of authority or you do not. If you do, then it really doesn't matter WHAT you do exactly -- "Lay down mine. You've had a rough day. I'm going to give you a back massage" -- is a perfectly assertive statement. Conversely, if you do not, then no amount of bluster will make up for it.

I think the part of this that I'm most concerned about is that neither of you are well situated in the "places" you seek to occupy. I think a great deal of introspection on both parts is called for.. although doing so runs the risk of getting the Jeffff pussy award (I've got 3 of 'em I'm pretty sure *laughs*). In the best of all worlds, that can be the opportunity for a wonderful journey of discovery for the both of you. If, on the other hand, you both look at the other and blame them for your own failure to occupy your "place"... well.. it is doomed to failure.

_____________________________

~Jeff

I didn't so much "enslave" Carol as I did "enlove" her. - Me
I want a joyous, loving, respectful relationship where the male is in charge and deserves to be. - DavanKael

(in reply to SirSvafnir)

Post #: 9

RE: help for the inexperienced - 3/31/2010 9:10:39 PM

Thadius

Posts: 5091
Joined: 10/11/2005
Status: offline

Evening Lance,

I think you hit the nail squarely on the head. After you bringing it up, I had to go take a read of the profile. It is full of inconsistancies and contradictions. From just a general point of view, declaring oneself a master without having mastered something seems to be at odds. From a Gorean point of view, well the only thing I saw in his profile that suggests he is living as a Gorean is his proclamation.

It seems he is looking for somebody to have sex and intellectual discussions with; and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. He should be more accurate about who he is and what he is looking for.

Just my opinion.

I wish you well,
Thadius

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When the character of a man is not clear to you, look at his friends." ~ Japanese Proverb

(in reply to LanceHughes)

Post #: 10

RE: help for the inexperienced - 3/31/2010 11:39:29 PM

Musicmystery

Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline

Agreed--if he had posted this in the Gorean section, the girls would have torn him apart.

(in reply to Thadius)

Post #: 11

RE: help for the inexperienced - 4/1/2010 1:16:05 AM

darkmoonkat

Posts: 17
Joined: 4/19/2009
Status: offline

OP, ask her.

(in reply to Musicmystery)

Post #: 12

RE: help for the inexperienced - 4/1/2010 8:30:49 AM

ishyB

Posts: 555
Joined: 9/2/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Agreed--if he had posted this in the Gorean section, the girls would have torn him apart.

Greetings Master,

LOL

I was actually just thinking about writing a reply about the Goreanesque side of this but then I saw Master Thadius' and your post, so I guess there is no need to now.

To Master Svafnir,

if a girl has a strong internal desire to be mastered by another, the most important way you can make her feel her feel like a slave is by taking an active leading/controlling role in the relationship.
In other words: tell her what you want her to do, make sure that she does it, and if she still comes whining that she doesn't feel like a slave, tell her to shut the fuck up and do as she's told. If that doesn't help, beat her until it does help.
There is nothing in the world that will make a person feel more like an actual slave than a situation where they have no choice but to follow commands, regardless of whether they like, approve, disagree with, enjoy, hate, or feel anything else about the command given.

However, are you really sure you want to make her feel like an actual slave?
Is she really sure that she wants to feel like an actual slave, or does she instead want to feel like you are her guide and leader, who takes into account the whole situation and then makes the decision he feels is best for the both of you?

I am going to make a wild guess, and say it's the second, and in that case:

Order her to talk to you in the way Master Leadership has already explained.
Try to understand what it is that she wants, and what it is that she needs.
Introspect, and try to understand what it is that you want, and what it is that you need.
Based on both sets of information, decide what the best course of action is, and proceed as you have decided.
If she still comes whining that she doesn't feel like a slave, tell her to shut the fuck up and do as she's told. If that doesn't help, beat her until it does help.

The only way she is EVER going to feel like a slave is by you giving her commands, and her following them.
How much you personally want to take in consideration the type of commands she wants to be given has to be up to you for the situation to be successful.
That doesn't mean that you can't take into account the type of commands that she wants to be given, but it does mean it has to be your choice whether you do or not.

If you let her decide which commands she needs to be given in order to feel like a slave, she will never ever ever actually feel like a slave. Instead, she will feel horny from role-playing a slave.
My bet is that that is what you both actually want, instead of actual slavery.

I wish you well,

ishy

_____________________________

I want you to know that it doesn't matter where we take this road
Someone's gotta go
and I want you to know you couldn't have loved me better
But I wanted to move on
So I'm already gone

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PoJFn_RIdkg

(in reply to Musicmystery)

Post #: 13

RE: help for the inexperienced - 4/1/2010 8:37:58 AM

SirRussellP

Posts: 107
Joined: 1/10/2006
Status: offline

You have had 2 types of answers that are both quite good.

First, ask yourself what you NEED then want. To be a good Dominant you have to know yourself first. Then ask yourself how in control of you are you. You can't control anyone if you can't control yourself first.

Second, talk with her honestly and a lot. There are different lists that the 2 of you can take to find out if your BDSM needs and wants are compatible.

Third, once you can deal with the first two then try a F2F relationship. I do think that a negotiated contract is needed at the beginning since it lets you both get to know more about each other.

Now owning a slave is lot more about day to day life then just play time. You have to be willing to care, protect, nurture her/him to let the slave grow in the way she wants to. Think hard if that kind of full commitment is for you or not. If you want to just play then attend parties.

(in reply to darkmoonkat)

Post #: 14

RE: help for the inexperienced - 4/1/2010 12:55:35 PM

switch2please

Posts: 494
Joined: 12/5/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jeffff

Introspection is for pussy's!

Yes. Yes it is. I introspect myself 2 or 3 times a day... ;)

(in reply to Jeffff)

Post #: 15

RE: help for the inexperienced - 4/6/2010 4:40:47 PM

EclipseAbove

Posts: 220
Joined: 8/11/2005
Status: offline

To the OP: Topping from below can seem like splitting hairs, but it really isn't. If you are making the decisions no matter what those decisions are, it is not topping from below. If your sub/slave is trying to run the show by telling you what to do, that is topping from below. So in your case, if you want to know what your slave wants, tell her to tell you. It is very common for Doms/Masters to have their sub/slaves tell them everything that is going on internally.

However, it sounds like she has already told you what she wants which is structure - to know her place in the relationship. Have you thought about what you want her place to be? If you haven't or you don't know what you want her place to be, tell her you haven't figured it out yet and you'll tell her when you do. Once you figure it out, just tell her. It very often helps everyone in a D/s relationship to know their roles and responsibilities so everyone can act accordingly. A lot of people use contracts to spell out the details, but any method of communication will do.

(in reply to switch2please)

Post #: 16

RE: help for the inexperienced - 4/6/2010 5:35:52 PM

BrokenSaint

Posts: 301
Joined: 10/30/2007
Status: offline

Everyone is different, perhaps the reason she feels that way is unrealistic expectations, and perhaps it is in your behavior. Without more information it is difficult to tell.

As for asking about her needs, I find no fault with this. Completely reasonable to do. It's like asking for the instruction manual. You wish to know how to properly take care of your property so that it does not break.

_____________________________

In the name of progress,
In the name of madness
Drum beats faster
Crowd shouts louder
and chaos replaces order
VnV Nation - Nemesis

(in reply to EclipseAbove)

Post #: 17

RE: help for the inexperienced - 4/7/2010 6:48:56 AM

Kana

Posts: 6676
Joined: 10/24/2006
Status: offline

"If a girl has a strong internal desire to be mastered by another, the most important way you can make her feel her feel like a slave is by taking an active leading/controlling role in the relationship.
In other words: tell her what you want her to do, make sure that she does it, and if she still comes whining that she doesn't feel like a slave, tell her to shut the fuck up and do as she's told. If that doesn't help, beat her until it does help.
There is nothing in the world that will make a person feel more like an actual slave than a situation where they have no choice but to follow commands, regardless of whether they like, approve, disagree with, enjoy, hate, or feel anything else about the command given."

As the surf dudes used to say, "Hell to the F'ing yes!"

< Message edited by Kana -- 4/7/2010 6:50:21 AM >

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HST

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Post #: 18

RE: help for the inexperienced - 4/7/2010 4:00:33 PM

reynardfox

Posts: 417
Joined: 9/8/2009
Status: offline

Tell her, it's not rocket science.

(in reply to SirSvafnir)

Post #: 19

RE: help for the inexperienced - 4/7/2010 4:50:17 PM

barelynangel

Posts: 6233
Status: offline

For slave -- the concept you need to learn about and understand is mastery. You have to first learn what it means to you. Then honestly assess whether or not you have the ability to master someone. Then before you decide to own someone, ask yourself why you want a slave. Then look at all those answers and decide what cost it will be for you to actually master and own a woman. Because there will be cost assessed to you and you life due to your decision to own a woman. Then you figure out what type of slavery you enjoy and what would best suit your life, your beliefs, your perceptions of women, your understanding of the world you live in and how, do you want the all inclusive concept wherein she is held to your every micromanaging command or would you rather a different form of slavery. You have to know what you are willing to do to hold the girl in her slavery -- because you actually do that -- not the slave. Signs of inconsistency, signs of being unsure are all concepts that will negatively rock the boat because you want a slave -- a slave needs a steady course because of her lack of autonomy and her lack of applying her own will. Then you figure out how can a girl be of value to you. And then you figure out how much cost you are willing to expend and at what value you will want the girl to achieve for you.

Then you take your final answer, and apply that all to a woman you are compatible with, who you are capable of mastering to obtain what you have determined you want from a slave, and who will fit into the environment and atmosphere you create.

Its not about what you can make a girl do -- its not about her actions -- its about you being capable of taking her autonomy and mastering her to where you are the leading authority and will in her life -- not her own. That is what she needs to feel, that her life is no longer sgnificantly ruled by her autonomy and her will.

Once you have accomplished that with her -- she won't probably be complaining you aren't doing it right. But it takes a lot of work. Some men make it look easy, but that's because they have already figured out 2/3rds of the equation and simply needed to add the slave to the mix.

The reason i post this as its all about what YOU need to do, is because many times especially if the woman is new to slavery -- she won't have a clue what she actually needs that is causing this discontent in her. So to me, asking isn't always the answer because it will only cause frustration when she says i don't know or some vague concept she can't quite put into words.

Its usually hard when someone doesn't know the whys and reasons and abilities prior to deciding to be a Master to someone. But once you know and are secure in what you want from the woman who you claim as slave, it tends to be a matter of mastering and holding her to your expectations and standards.

angel

< Message edited by barelynangel -- 4/7/2010 4:57:06 PM >

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What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters compared to what lies within us.
R.W. Emerson

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