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MrRodgers -> RE: Political Philosophy (4/1/2010 9:34:50 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

Typically English....and what I would call realistic....but then I would say that as I wouldn't call myself a proper idiot dreaming about the improbable.

Anyway.....

What does the experience of human nature tell you?

That we are more civilised today than we have ever been.

What is the political climate that allows for that?

We need an appeal.....most of us hate absolutism......but we need a ruler.....most of us will accept the laws of the land.

So we are happy to submit but only where our voices are heard.....meaning Communism/Fascism/Libertarianism are not for the long term but Liberalism and Conservatism are....which I suppose is borne out by the fact that Western societies are not ran by the fringes.

Me......there ain't much about me that isn't liberal....and I think libertarians are dreamers and have much more in common with communists than they do conservatives.

There is much mythology about libertarianism as they have nothing at all in common with communists. Communism is an economic system called collectivism under the ownership of the govt. Libertarianism is the antithesis of communism in its requirement and properly so, in one responsibility of govt.,...the protection of private property.

My only real problem is their living in the Ayn Rand world of Laissez Faire capitalism where 'there are no [socialogical] truths discovered...not in an exchange of wealth in the pursuit of a profit.'

What the libertarian fails to recognize is that in addition to one of the so-called 'evil' necessities of govt., protecting the citizen from the power of govt. and thus believe in limited federal govt. power but also to protect the people from the power of business and its obvious potential for greed and corruption.




LadyAngelika -> RE: Political Philosophy (4/1/2010 9:35:01 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

Well I dislike "naming names"...so I'm just going to have to step out of this one and beg your forgiveness for ever having gotten involved [:D]


Start begging ;-)

- LA




MrRodgers -> RE: Political Philosophy (4/1/2010 9:39:22 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika


quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

Well I dislike "naming names"...so I'm just going to have to step out of this one and beg your forgiveness for ever having gotten involved [:D]


Start begging ;-)

- LA


Now that brings a big smile to my face.




slvemike4u -> RE: Political Philosophy (4/1/2010 9:40:24 PM)

Not sure if I can express the proper measure of my regret thru such a poor medium....;-(




thewashingtonian -> RE: Political Philosophy (4/2/2010 7:44:57 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

Typically English....and what I would call realistic....but then I would say that as I wouldn't call myself a proper idiot dreaming about the improbable.

Anyway.....

What does the experience of human nature tell you?

That we are more civilised today than we have ever been.

What is the political climate that allows for that?

We need an appeal.....most of us hate absolutism......but we need a ruler.....most of us will accept the laws of the land.

So we are happy to submit but only where our voices are heard.....meaning Communism/Fascism/Libertarianism are not for the long term but Liberalism and Conservatism are....which I suppose is borne out by the fact that Western societies are not ran by the fringes.

Me......there ain't much about me that isn't liberal....and I think libertarians are dreamers and have much more in common with communists than they do conservatives.

There is much mythology about libertarianism as they have nothing at all in common with communists. Communism is an economic system called collectivism under the ownership of the govt. Libertarianism is the antithesis of communism in its requirement and properly so, in one responsibility of govt.,...the protection of private property.

My only real problem is their living in the Ayn Rand world of Laissez Faire capitalism where 'there are no [socialogical] truths discovered...not in an exchange of wealth in the pursuit of a profit.'

What the libertarian fails to recognize is that in addition to one of the so-called 'evil' necessities of govt., protecting the citizen from the power of govt. and thus believe in limited federal govt. power but also to protect the people from the power of business and its obvious potential for greed and corruption.



You know, it's funny you should mention that because I was just discussing the same with with a friend of mine who is a Marxist. Communists and libertarians really aren't too different. I think, in essence, we both want the same thing, and that's equal freedom between all peoples and an honest government.

Your last statement is where the real crux is. Power, corruption, and greed is going to come from somewhere, either from business or government. I believe, though, with strong willed nation, we can stand up to either and both. In regards to business, we can simply stop buying from whoever we see unfit to sell the public anything and with the government, we can elect incompetent politicians out of office  while electing someone more suited for the job. It's all just a matter of society realizing this, which it hasn't yet.

Also, I do believe there is a VERY, VERY limited role the government should play in commerce. In a political science class I took recently, I found that Adam Smith had the best idea (in my mind) for how the government should engage. Basically, the government should behave like a soccer referee in commerce. He doesn't play the game nor is he all that active in the game's activities, but if there is wrong doing (i.e. the establishment of monopolies), the government does have the responsibility to step in and make things right.

Apart from that, it should be up to us. We the people need to shoulder our own responsibilities in the world of politics and business. We have the power to end companies and "strong" political figures. Most of us just don't realize it and many of us just don't care. 




NorthernGent -> RE: Political Philosophy (4/2/2010 8:33:05 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers

There is much mythology about libertarianism as they have nothing at all in common with communists.



They may manifest themselves in different fashions but the same principle underlies both: the principle being that human beings will co-exist more peacefully with the absolute minimum in the way of government intervention (where you accept that the ultimate goal of communism is to remove division among people and a natural order will follow where everyone will live peacefully).

Of course human experience tells us something entirely different where you accept that we are more civilised today than we have ever been - and where you accept that a lack of central regulation was a factor in the constant religious and civil strife upto the 1700s. It is the pillars of society and established institutions such as government - including regulation in economic and social life - that have produced this system affording increasing civilisation.

There is a notion that runs contrary to human experience - that notion being that we are best left to our own devices. And it assumes that people are entirely reasonable - whereas human experience tells us we are not. Every revolution going that has aimed at power to the people has not achieved the desired effect of reasonable behaviour/peace/liberty - they have led to tyrants and chaos.

The most peaceful countries in the Western world - in terms of peace within the country - for the last 3/400 years have been Britain and their former colonies and throw in Holland too. I don't think it's a coincidence that these countries have practiced a certain amount of respecting the civil liberties of their peoples while maintaining a stranglehold over what is and isn't acceptable thinking and practice - call it a light touch with stern discipline when needs must. None of these countries have allowed for much in the way of extreme politics or an overbearing government - just something that keeps things ticking over nicely - as said an appeal yes but must submit to authority. And in comparison - this system has been successful. Because ultimately whatever business is doing these countries have had few internal problems - and that is the goal of politics - to live in harmony.




intenze -> RE: Political Philosophy (4/2/2010 8:45:42 AM)

Libertarians= right wing anarchists... YAY




NorthernGent -> RE: Political Philosophy (4/2/2010 8:46:52 AM)

And in a D/s context...why do we seek a governor and the governed? Why do the governor and the governed seek an understanding of the rules and the consequences? and the acceptance that where the governor thinks things are becoming unstable then the governed accept the governor's direction? Because it works. The two parties going their own way with competing ways of doing things - just doesn't work - though I'd say most of us would accept the privilege of the governed having a voice. In the same vein - Communism/Libertarianism/Fascism simply do not strike a viable balance.




seekingOwnertoo -> RE: Political Philosophy (4/2/2010 9:08:03 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika

current gap in the US bipartisan system is pretty extreme and I'm sure it is creating more people who can't pick one party or the other.



So true ... it's like which party is the worst evil ... and it is so sad.

In 1963 ... John F Kennedy and Barry Goldwater ... two of the most opposite ends of political extremes imaginable,

agreed they were going to "share" one airplane for the 1964 election campaign. Because they wanted to save money AND they enjoyed each other's company!

Moreover, they both believed that good debate created stronger policy! Fancy that!

Things have really devolved from there ... into what appears to be the mob rule democracy of ancient Greece ... that the American Founding Fathers ... SO FEARED ... when they created a Republic ... rather than a Democracy.

And yes Virginia ... there is a difference.





domiguy -> RE: Political Philosophy (4/2/2010 9:29:01 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika

quote:

How would this work LA...


Still doesn't work for me. I dislike when people make broad sweeping statements. Nothing is ever gained from them.

- LA



quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika

quote:

By the way, anyone who's screenname relates to cuckolding is a complete psychopath.


Gosh, first Muslims are a race, now everyone into cuckoldry is psychopath. I'm detecting a pattern of ignorance and intolerance here.

- LA




There you have it, she admits she dislikes herself...I always knew it.




TheHeretic -> RE: Political Philosophy (4/2/2010 7:55:01 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: thewashingtonian
Communists and libertarians really aren't too different.  





What the fuck kind of nonsense is that, Wash??? Pardon me, let me re-phrase; what the fuck kind of idiotic nonsense is that???

I smell a sock-puppet




Kirata -> RE: Political Philosophy (4/2/2010 8:40:18 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

What the fuck kind of nonsense is that...

I still think "political philosophy" is an oxymoron.

K.




subexploring -> RE: Political Philosophy (4/2/2010 8:44:48 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: thewashingtonian

Also, I do believe there is a VERY, VERY limited role the government should play in commerce. In a political science class I took recently, I found that Adam Smith had the best idea (in my mind) for how the government should engage. Basically, the government should behave like a soccer referee in commerce. He doesn't play the game nor is he all that active in the game's activities, but if there is wrong doing (i.e. the establishment of monopolies), the government does have the responsibility to step in and make things right.




The referee (the rule makers) are by far the most powerful person in any game. By far, it's not even close. The referee is the one who determines whether the game is soccer, handball, or a brawl.

A good quote about libertarian ideology from Charles Beard:

"it [is] absurd for men to write of the production and distribution of wealth apart from the state which defines, upholds, taxes, and regulates property, the very basis of economic operations; but absurdity does not stay the hand of the apologist."




kdsub -> RE: Political Philosophy (4/2/2010 9:49:14 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Arpig

I am basically a socialist, I believe the government has a duty to promote the welfare of all citizens, particularly the disadvantaged and poor. I do agree with you on the gay marriage bit, but luckily for me I live in a country that allows it.


So do I... folks are flocking to Iowa to be married.

Butch




LadyAngelika -> RE: Political Philosophy (4/3/2010 8:37:10 AM)

quote:


In 1963 ... John F Kennedy and Barry Goldwater ... two of the most opposite ends of political extremes imaginable,

agreed they were going to "share" one airplane for the 1964 election campaign. Because they wanted to save money AND they enjoyed each other's company!


Gentlemen, truly. Today's election campaigns are no classier than the Gerry Springer show.

- LA




LadyAngelika -> RE: Political Philosophy (4/3/2010 8:40:46 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: domiguy

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika

quote:

How would this work LA...


Still doesn't work for me. I dislike when people make broad sweeping statements. Nothing is ever gained from them.

- LA



quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika

quote:

By the way, anyone who's screenname relates to cuckolding is a complete psychopath.


Gosh, first Muslims are a race, now everyone into cuckoldry is psychopath. I'm detecting a pattern of ignorance and intolerance here.

- LA




There you have it, she admits she dislikes herself...I always knew it.


Read again Domi. I was pointing out Silence8's broad sweeping statements.

I know one of your kinks is taking jabs at intelligent and strong women because somehow putting them down makes you feel better about your sad, sorry self, but this time, you missed, royally ;-)

- LA




thewashingtonian -> RE: Political Philosophy (4/3/2010 9:18:51 AM)

I should make myself clear: True Marxists and Libertarians long for a world with equal, universal rights, peace, as well as an all but non-existent government. This is a conclusion my friend (who, once again, is a Marxist) came to. We want the same thing, it's just that we want to accomplish it by completely different means.That is where our philosophies diverge.




slavekal -> RE: Political Philosophy (4/3/2010 10:16:28 AM)

I agree 100%.  The government has ZERO right to tell you what to do if you are not harming others.  Not if what you do may have some perceived negative effect on society....if you are not directly violating the rights of others, you have the right to do what makes you happy.




TheHeretic -> RE: Political Philosophy (4/3/2010 10:38:53 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: slavekal

I agree 100%.  The government has ZERO right to tell you what to do if you are not harming others.  Not if what you do may have some perceived negative effect on society....if you are not directly violating the rights of others, you have the right to do what makes you happy.



Well, that gets sorta sticky, Kal. Where do we draw that line of "directly violating the rights of others?" The libertarian sorts I know fall into one of two groups; those who want to get high, and those who don't give a shit what the 14 dead cars in the yard are doing to their neighbors property values.





TheHeretic -> RE: Political Philosophy (4/3/2010 10:45:57 AM)

You know what, Wash? I take it back. You were right. There isn't much difference at all between twue Marxists and twue Libertarians. Both are delusional fantasies, based on a flawed notion of human nature.

Otherwise it is akin to saying the pacifist and the guy out to rule the world are the same because they both have the same end goal. Process matters, especially when things don't go according to plan.




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