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RE: Gender Politics: He's pregnant AGAIN - 4/3/2010 6:26:49 AM

Wolf2Bear

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Quite interesting when women bitch and complain that they are always the one who has to suffer morning sickness, stretch marks, intense labor pains and men don't. Yet when a male does have the ability to carry a fetus to term, women bitch and complain that he isn't a "true" male. No wonder there will never be gender equality. By all accounts Beatie and his wife are happy decent parents and too damn bad many can't give them credit for that.

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RE: Gender Politics: He's pregnant AGAIN - 4/3/2010 6:28:52 AM

tazzygirl

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A question, Wolf...

Would a decent parent make a mockery of their child? Imagine what these poor kids will have to go through later in life.

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RE: Gender Politics: He's pregnant AGAIN - 4/3/2010 6:33:36 AM

sirsholly

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quote:

By all accounts Beatie and his wife are happy decent parents and too damn bad many can't give them credit for that.

Agrees.

The important thing is that the children are loved and well cared for.

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RE: Gender Politics: He's pregnant AGAIN - 4/3/2010 6:53:38 AM

Louve00

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Of course I do wish this family and their children happiness. I don't begrudge anyone that. But the rant by Doon Baqi brings up a valid question (at least for me). He claims he is a man. Whether he intends, eventually, to get all the surgery done to actually BE a man is another thing. Until then, I would tend to agree with Doon Baqi. He's a woman who's been given some male hormones, but bottom line is, he has the plumbing and obviously the ability (meaning menses and ovulation and the whole she-bang), to have a baby. Of course he can bitch and moan about being pregnant and the discomfort of it all. And we all know, by his claims that he wants to be a man. But technically....is he? Is his claim right? Are we that easily duped into believing everything we read, hear, and see?

**Editted to add a typo correction and to say I'm replying after Holly, not to Holly.

< Message edited by Louve00 -- 4/3/2010 6:56:27 AM >

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RE: Gender Politics: He's pregnant AGAIN - 4/3/2010 8:06:05 AM

BoiJen

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen
The clitoris is the same basic material as forms part of the penis if, in the womb, the fetus is male and there are no issues of androgen failure. Its all quite amazing the things that can go awry in the process of turning a fetus from the default female into a male.

An adult woman exposed to androgens will find her periods stop, her womb will deteriorate, her voice will break, she will develop male pattern body hair (including facial hair) and that her clitoris will become larger. It used to be a problem mainly identified with female body builders and certain athletes who abused hormone treatments in order to compete. The clitoris doesnt become a penis as a male will have - but will become larger.

E

But a penis has specific plumbing. When naturally occurring in a person, if both sets of plumbing are present...something does doesn't work "properly". Intersexed individuals often cannot procreate because of this. Even in gender reassignment, a catheter is used for the trans man to have the proper plumbing of what would be a physically healthy man except for testes, even then artificial implants can be used to give the look and feel of such a situation. This is not that different than reconstructive surgery of the male organ after deformation or amputation. The German's actually have a *very* nice prosthetic that might be used in such a situation. An enlarged clit is not like a small penis.

Now what I would like to know is this: This person is taking T (testosterone) and in your above statement you say "her womb will deteriorate" when enough T has been taken. If this is true, then this person is purposely treading a line of how much T to take. I'm not sure how true this is because a woman's "womb" life is based upon the uterine artery's ability to provide blood flow to the organ. Does T inhibit this blood flow? Does T inhibit the release of eggs or the uterus' ability to maintain a lining that will sustain life?

I don't know the answers to these questions. I'd appreciate a link to a medical statement if you have one. It may help me understand the science behind some of this.

Thank you,

boi

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RE: Gender Politics: He's pregnant AGAIN - 4/3/2010 8:15:45 AM

BoiJen

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Wolf2Bear

Quite interesting when women bitch and complain that they are always the one who has to suffer morning sickness, stretch marks, intense labor pains and men don't. Yet when a male does have the ability to carry a fetus to term, women bitch and complain that he isn't a "true" male. No wonder there will never be gender equality. By all accounts Beatie and his wife are happy decent parents and too damn bad many can't give them credit for that.

I'm really not trying to bitch (and I don't identify as a woman) I'm stating an opinion on a personal exploitation this person has chosen to take. This person purposefully put themself in the news over this issue. This person repeatedly makes large, national announcements about the state of this person's pregnancies.

I will say, I understand a transman helping his wife by having one child if his wife couldn't have them. I *get* that. That is an act of love of trying to create a fulfilling situation for his wife. Repeatedly having kids is a female act. Period. It's not a male act at all. To go further and to make a public spectacle every time this person gets pregnant is an even bigger issue that's gonna lead to this person's kids being tormented. Which bothers me on a whole 'nother level.

If they make great parents, good! Great! Fabulous! I am happy as hell about it. However, I doubt their ability to maintain their are "good parents" because of what this public exposure is going to put their kids through.

Anyways, parenting and the kids aren't actually the focus of the topic, gender is.

Thanks for commenting though, I'll be interested in how this situation develops for the kids cuz something tells me, this purposeful exposure by the parents isn't going to change.

As a boi, you're never gonna find me pregnant. I have no desire. And that you can take to the bank. *Wanting* to be pregnant is a gender oriented act.

boi

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Post #: 26

RE: Gender Politics: He's pregnant AGAIN - 4/3/2010 8:44:40 AM

LadyAngelika

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BoiJen

Even as a gender queer individual, it's hard for me to swallow a person declaring they are male and then doing the one thing men can't do. I'm just under the personal impression that men don't *have* kids and *women* do. Therefor, to me, he must be female.

That's my opinion.

boi

This is what happens with the polarization of gender. There are only 2 boxes to tick so you ultimately have to pick one gender or another even if the gender description doesn't describe you completely. As Kate Bornstein would say, ze is what ze is :-)

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RE: Gender Politics: He's pregnant AGAIN - 4/3/2010 9:01:28 AM

BoiJen

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika

quote:

ORIGINAL: BoiJen

Even as a gender queer individual, it's hard for me to swallow a person declaring they are male and then doing the one thing men can't do. I'm just under the personal impression that men don't *have* kids and *women* do. Therefor, to me, he must be female.

That's my opinion.

boi

This is what happens with the polarization of gender. There are only 2 boxes to tick so you ultimately have to pick one gender or another even if the gender description doesn't describe you completely. As Kate Bornstein would say, ze is what ze is :-)

- LA

I think there's a difference between sex and gender as well, though. There really are only two sexes within the human species, this is dictated by anatomy. Gender is how we identify ourselves based on how we feel. To declare one's self a man as a gender identity, then there's certain things that go along with that. Getting pregnant isn't one of them.

Does that make sense?

boi

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RE: Gender Politics: He's pregnant AGAIN - 4/3/2010 11:28:50 AM

LadyEllen

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hormone_replacement_therapy_(female-to-male) and also try ftm.com

The deterioration of the womb itself is not mentioned, but this was something reported to me by my counsellor, himself a transman.

E

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RE: Gender Politics: He's pregnant AGAIN - 4/3/2010 12:15:11 PM

BoiJen

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hormone_replacement_therapy_(female-to-male) and also try ftm.com

The deterioration of the womb itself is not mentioned, but this was something reported to me by my counsellor, himself a transman.

E

Thank you. I'd really like to see where the balance is that's allowing this person to get pregnant.

Thank you again.

boi

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Post #: 30

RE: Gender Politics: He's pregnant AGAIN - 4/3/2010 1:46:05 PM

GotSteel

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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

A question, Wolf...

Would a decent parent make a mockery of their child? Imagine what these poor kids will have to go through later in life.

So transgendered people shouldn't have children? How about gay people?

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Post #: 31

RE: Gender Politics: He's pregnant AGAIN - 4/3/2010 1:50:32 PM

BoiJen

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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

A question, Wolf...

Would a decent parent make a mockery of their child? Imagine what these poor kids will have to go through later in life.

So transgendered people shouldn't have children? How about gay people?

I assume you're attempting to be inflammatory, not dense, correct?

boi

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RE: Gender Politics: He's pregnant AGAIN - 4/3/2010 4:45:28 PM

GotSteel

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BoiJen
I assume you're attempting to be inflammatory, not dense, correct?

I'm trying to get Tazzy to step back for a second and think through the broader connotations of her position.

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Post #: 33

RE: Gender Politics: He's pregnant AGAIN - 4/3/2010 5:12:03 PM

BoiJen

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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

I'm trying to get Tazzy to step back for a second and think through the broader connotations of her position.

Most Americans who are gonna see this issue aren't going to see it as a gay issue. Most Americans actually have a big line distinction in their head from gay and trans issues. To add to that, a large portion of the trans community (at least those whom I associate with) don't consider this person part of their community because this person is not acting within the traditional confines of "man", which is what this person professes to want to be.

Your jump in consequences has little to do with how the majority of individuals in the US are gonna see this issue. And because of that, I would say the jump is not appropriate, rather, it's purposefully inflammatory.

Just sayin...

boi

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RE: Gender Politics: He's pregnant AGAIN - 4/3/2010 5:15:49 PM

Lucylastic

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I think he(the chap/chapess) wants the best of both worlds... cant say I blame him
A lot of it is for celebrity...which is a shame for the kids.
I hope the kids grow up being loved and not be second fiddle to the celebrity

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RE: Gender Politics: He's pregnant AGAIN - 4/3/2010 5:55:47 PM

angelikaJ

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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Would a decent parent make a mockery of their child? Imagine what these poor kids will have to go through later in life.

I am not seeing how slot A fits into slot B ...how do you see this as making "a mockery of their child"?
And what about the couples that have children and then want to become the opposite sex?

Does that devalue their abilities as parents?

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RE: Gender Politics: He's pregnant AGAIN - 4/3/2010 6:05:13 PM

Silence8

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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

A question, Wolf...

Would a decent parent make a mockery of their child? Imagine what these poor kids will have to go through later in life.

So transgendered people shouldn't have children? How about gay people?

I had the same reaction.

I'd rather live with a fucked-up mom (honestly, whose mother --- ) than not live at all.

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Post #: 37

RE: Gender Politics: He's pregnant AGAIN - 4/3/2010 6:07:58 PM

Silence8

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Silence8

According to the article his/ her clitoris turned into a small penis as a result of testosterone treatments?

Needless to say I'm not sure what that means.

The clitoris is the same basic material as forms part of the penis if, in the womb, the fetus is male and there are no issues of androgen failure. Its all quite amazing the things that can go awry in the process of turning a fetus from the default female into a male.

E

Interesting. The Daoists were definitely on to something...

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Post #: 38

RE: Gender Politics: He's pregnant AGAIN - 4/3/2010 6:42:56 PM

angelikaJ

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BoiJen,
I guess I just see gender less rigidly than you do...in part because I think a time will come when men will be able to carry babies to full term.

This is how I see it with Thomas: as a woman she knew she had this amazing ability... but being a woman did not feel right to him... and when he chose to become a man because that is how he felt inside; he realised that he did not want to give up the ability to "experience the miracle of birth"... and so he didn't.

By all accounts he and Nancy are good and loving parents.

This is not an argument; I am not discounting your feelings, but merely expressing my own point of view.

There are many women who never want to have children. That does not make them any less a woman for choosing not to.

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Post #: 39

RE: Gender Politics: He's pregnant AGAIN - 4/3/2010 8:26:09 PM

Wolf2Bear

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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

A question, Wolf...

Would a decent parent make a mockery of their child? Imagine what these poor kids will have to go through later in life.

The thing is, I read the article in that link and I didn't read anything where they were making a mockery of their children. The only mockery that I've seen is people making a mockery of the desire for Beatie and his partner wanting to have children biologically. We alos can't forget that it is us parenbts who have the responsibility to teach our offspring the necessary tools they need to cope with life when they are full grown adults. It's up to Beatie and his partner to reach their children to deal with the harsh cruelties they will face in life....same way our parents done with us when we were being raised.

I am the first to admit that in the past 10 years, my definition of what is male and what is female has been challenged more then I had ever imagined. It is a tough thing to comprehend that genitalia dos not define outr gender. I have to give a lot of credit to many people in mhy circle of friends who do not fit the standard definition of male or female also a few people on these boards also helped to educate me and broaden my concept of male, female and all the places in between.

I just have a tough time trying to understand how people who are open minded enough to engage in many forms of kink and even consent to allow another control all aspects of their life yet these same people are quick to ridcule and judge a person like Beatie for bearing children. I had hoped that we as a loose collective woulfd be more understanding give another the benefit of a doubt. Obviously I am deluding myself as that hasn't happened.

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I'm the master of both
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Post #: 40

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