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Thesis part one - 4/3/2010 3:38:41 AM   
Termyn8or


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I do not mean to be presumptuous here, but here it goes anyway.

Freud had it wrong, but only slightly off. In those times procreation was seen as contributing to the sustenenance of humanity, and ergo those opinions made sense at the time. However, even if you embrace the Freudian ideology, I say there is an underlying factor and I think it explains a few things. Therefore I type.

The desire to reproduce is linked to some unknown quantity, some desire, some thing that may or may not be tangible, but seems so to many. I believe that the human race has some sort of connectivity that is yet undescribed and undiscovered. And I still assert that there is nothing supernatural. It is simply unknown at this time, as were many things. If you took a camera to certain places in the world in the past you might be burned at the stake as a witch. But such things are borne of fear.

Well what is fear ? Now that I look back and see my own life I see that it is finite, and of course more finite than some. But my own demise does not invoke fear in me, like the demise of the human race does. In that of course, my whole philosophy pervades.

There are many schools of thought on this, but only two are mine. One is that we as a race are doomed and headed toward the end soon, and the other is that nature is making adjustments. The latter is the premise of this text.

If self preservation, or the preservation of our race or species is paramount, then it follows that some adjustments must be made from time to time. Who would make such adjustments ? Government, religion ? I think not. We have a connection.

Now what alot of people do not realize is that this planet is seriously overpopulated. Most have been born into it but I lived in a time when you could by a hundred acre farm for a scant few thousand bucks, which incidentally may have been bought for fifty bucks years before me. What we are experiencing now is the clammor for natural resources, while ignoring the real problem. But that is not the point.

Why do people rape, pillage and plunder ? Simple, to assure (supposedly) their well being and that of their progeny. Why do they steal ? Unless they are a hopeless crackhead they might (especially today) steal to live. That would include stealing to support their progeny would it not ? Well different people have different standards, while the commoner is concerned with how many diapers they can afford, the elite concern themselves with how many toys they can buy. And that means for their kids as well. This situation is a self sustaining circle of materialism.

But back to the point, if indeed everything is related to self preservation, and by extesion the human race, what have they been taught ? True power is the power to survive, even at the cost of another, but hopefully only if necessary. (of course that is not so) But my assertion is that all human activity MIGHT be borne of this one main instinct. Freud might not have been all that far off, the sexual urge is practically indonimable in some, which is not to say they are the best to have reproducing, but nature has it's ways and I cannot judge that.

In the world into which I and most of us were born, this can be hard to figure out. However to separate these issues close study is needed. Why does one person feel the need to have a dozen kids while another has no such desire ? I think society has shaped that. I'll tell you I was sick as hell and made less than 20K last year because of it, but even when I was doing quite well I did not want kids. I only wanted kids because it would hook me up with the Woman of my dreams, and yes, I wanted them only from her. I saw her as a very fit Mother to be and that I would contribute something.

But it all comes from the self preservation instinct. Is that self MY self or OUR self ? Call this hogwash or a dissertation, but it is based on life experience. People are people, some are defective, and for some of those I'll go out of my way to set straight, but then what is that ? After analysis I find that I want people alive in the future who have been exposed to me. There is nothing wrong with that unless I am wrong. But if I am wrong the forces of nature will either quell or kill me correct ?

But what if I am not worthy of survival ? Then all I teach and touch is gone.

I'll find the time tomorrow to elaborate more, but for now this is how it is. Freud was right, Men do what excites them sexually, that is pretty apparent. But is not the sex drive a component of the will to survive ? Or for that matter putting oil or gas in your car, paying the electric bill and a whole bunch of other things. Is it not all part of the survival instinct, or it's just that we were born into a time when things are not determined by simple cause and effect, when there are a plethora of other influences, not excluding some skillful and unlawful acts of those who seek to "socially engineer" us.

________________________________________________________________________________________


In short, what gave us orgasms ? Does it really feel that good to risk creating a new life ? I think not. The question here is if we are simply smart animals or something more. This is long enough so I sign off now. But think of WHY. Think beyond Freud, and all the rest. Think in the here and now. Jung was not 100% right and neither am I. But I do want to put my opinion out there for scrutiny. Tear it up.

T

< Message edited by Termyn8or -- 4/3/2010 3:46:02 AM >
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RE: Thesis part one - 4/3/2010 4:31:26 AM   
LanceHughes


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When I read "Men do what excites them sexually, that is pretty apparent. But is not the sex drive a component of the will to survive?"

I thought, "Not for me, it isn't." You'd best toss an explanation of gays into this brew.  I fuck for fuck's sake.... except.....

Some research (can't put my finger on it right now - google is your friend) suggests that you have a point regarding gays, the evolutionary explanation being that gay Uncles (therefore usually without children) are well-placed to assist in the survival of their own genes, even though they (the Uncles) are assisting less of their own gene pool than that of their non-existant children (which would take precedence over their nieces and nephews.)  Most primitive cultures allow for keeping some genes outside battle (where the bearer of those genes might be killed and thus the genes are removed from the tribe's pool) by having gays traditionally become the shaman. Of course, the leader's brother is well placed to be EXACTLY the one to be the shaman.  Very, very often, mideval <SP?> third sons were "given-over" to the Church, since "the heir and a spare" requirements had been met.  American Indian culture calls gays "Two-Spirited" and respect that way of life.  Male Old Testament Jews were required by law to marry their widowed sisters-in-law, thereby becoming the protectors of their nieces and nephews.  (With some ppolygamists using this Biblical reference to justify many wives without realizing what is the background justification.)

I guess your point - muddled as it may be - is simply:

The evolutionary drive (as we understand it today) is sexually based.

Just one word in response: Duh.

Usually a thesis can be expressed in one sentence.  Try to do that (with your expansion / exposition to follow.)  A good place to start might be: I disagree with Lance's one sentence thesis because my one sentence is: .........

Granted, it is helpful to get words on paper.... er, into a file for editing.  I do the same.  Editing a file offline is (to me) a great way to help me get to the meat of the matter.  THEN and only then do I post - especially with such a lofty topic.

My process:  Write as you have done (w/o all those apologies to the reader. LOL)  Combine sentences. Put in the logical flow, "If A, then B." "We see that A is true, therefore, we have B."  Condense, re-write.  Expand those bits not clear to you.  (If they're not clear to you, why do you expect them to be clear to the reader?)  Condense heavily, re-write.  Lather, rinse, repeat.

Hope this helps.  I enjoy your posts, but this one is so "everywhere at once" that , when I first read through, I thought "Where to start?"

Regards, Lance
P.S. Briefest of respones (and totally rude) "So, what's your point?" LOL!

E4C = Edited for clarity.

< Message edited by LanceHughes -- 4/3/2010 4:45:53 AM >


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RE: Thesis part one - 4/3/2010 8:00:10 AM   
pahunkboy


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Egads.

Yous are a JOY.

Me needs COFFEE.  lol.

I love yous.  I really do.

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RE: Thesis part one - 4/3/2010 5:37:06 PM   
SL4V3M4YB3


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or
After analysis I find that I want people alive in the future who have been exposed to me. There is nothing wrong with that unless I am wrong. But if I am wrong the forces of nature will either quell or kill me correct ?

But what if I am not worthy of survival ? Then all I teach and touch is gone.

This says to me you care about your demise and want to live on through what others take from you.

The effect we have is like a drop in the ocean and even then it's subject to further dilution beyond our death. Even if you were a great inventor or philosopher you'd soon be forgotten eventually. Then even if you weren't at some point in time the human race will cease to exist because it's inevitable as everything, even human existence, has it's alternate state of human non-existence.

Then you start thinking "Well what is the point then?" It's probably the thing we start thinking first but perhaps we have it backwards and should be thinking what we would like the point to be.


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RE: Thesis part one - 4/3/2010 6:18:34 PM   
LanceHughes


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Curiously, a gay friend sent me this link this morning.  The article is a review of a scientist's view on the evolutionary drive of sex with emphasis (and only an emphasis) on "Where do gays fit into evolution?"

ETA: http://seedmagazine.com/content/article/the_gay_animal_kingdom
LOL!

< Message edited by LanceHughes -- 4/3/2010 6:19:52 PM >


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RE: Thesis part one - 4/3/2010 6:36:36 PM   
Termyn8or


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I have not read any replies, and in this particular case I deem that proper.

Part Two

Now, if it is a given that the desire for survival is the strongest of all, which is quite hard to argue against, we must examine the factors that have gotten us to this point in history. For the most universal acceptance and understanding I wll use Freudian terms. The most basic explainaition is that the id is the desire, the ego manages how to fulfill that desire and the superego sets the limits.

While that is very simplistic, it provides a framework for now. The id cannot be controlled. In fact I believe that is possibly controled but not by us. That's why prison doesn't work. The ego, in this not the colloquial(sp) sense is this means if the ego develops without intervention of the superego, the limits actually, this breeds a criminal.

Now in this view a criminal is not one who sells a few pounds of weed or does something stupid like get too many DUIs. So many take the law as morality and it simply isn't so. A criminal will take your stuff and if you try to stop him he will fight for it. So in fact what I assert then by proxy is that while the ego and superego are imposed by society, the id is not. And in this context society includes the home environment from birth.

So where does that leave us ? Nobody is happy. These things which are supposed to happen in early life happen much later, and in whole I believe that we do not mature intellectually fast enough to keep up with our growing power in life. That leads to poor decisions and poor leadership, which is now accepted as the norm. Proficient and competent leaders are only emplaced in venues that have undergone extreme strife. This author has lost everything he owns twice, and can rightly claim that he (I) have lost more than most people have had.

But as they say - easy come east go. I find alot of truth in old sayings, and that one seems to stick. The idea is that one will value what they have earned, more than that which they are given. Give a Man a fish or teach him to fish.

So originally the forces of nature shaped our minds and attitudes, and we obviously prevailed even under some quite harsh conditions. When the harsh conditions were removed from the equation by society and the accompanying technology, our will to survive was left in sort of a free floating condition. Like what was once termed free floating anger back in the 1970s, it is easy to manipulate. Those who manipulate it successfully become rich, or even better than rich, are adorned with power. Whether or not they deserve that power is in question of course.

And that applies to any social structure, let's take communism for an quick reference. each according to his abilities and each according to his needs. Unfair from the start, but would be accepted by the bleeding heart if only it could be adminstered properly. The human factor is always the loose cannon, the loose lips, the loose wires. In other words, people are what keep any social system from working at it's best. When greed and avarice are taken into consideration it comes clear that it is not really much better than anarchy. Indeed I don't even need a whole hand to count the times I have called the police, and that includes a couple of times when my car got stolen.

I am the ultimate separatist. I don't mean in a racial or religious sense, I mean totally. If I could live off the land I would, and nobody would ever hear from me again unless they came to my forest, cave or whatever. But I am very different, and that gives me the ability to step back and see the whole picture. I can see, and have practiced the manipulation going on. An angry mob can be convinced that just about anyone is the enemy. And that sticks. We have people killing doctors for performing abortions, we have people who have the right to express themselves but are so crass they can't even muster the common decency to stay away from someone's funeral. We have people calling Arabs towelheads because they are different.

Then we have people who want to fight for Women's rights in Arab countries. Wait a minute, when did this become our problem ? I'll tell you when, when the media said so. You think things were so good for Women in Iran when Carter shielded the Shah from his just punishments ? It's all a ruse, and they spin it day and night. They manipulate the people all day long - literally.

To understand this is the key to success, and much more. The elite know the ways of the commoner. Therefore for at least a fair game, the commoner must know the ways of the elite. My family was the elite at one time, back in the old country, so as I was taught I learned those ways. I also learned a few things that have escaped the modern elite, which is that you need support of the people you lead. You lead because they have trust in you, and you do not violate that trust. However such values have disappeared.

How and why this happened will be discussed in the next segment.

______________________________________________________________________________

I am not reading any replies at the moment because quite frankly, this is MY dissertation. That does not mean I do not appreciate the response, but I have no interest in the content at this time because this comes along as it comes. I don't want any external influence until I am finished. What you get is pure me, like it or not. The last part of this will be lengthy, and will explore just how this manipulation of the mass of humanity has been accomplished.

Again, thank you for the responses, and I will read them and respond when I am finished.

T

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RE: Thesis part one - 4/3/2010 7:05:32 PM   
LanceHughes


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Btw, OP;
Please define "over-populated."  Seems your argument follows this logical <?> path: American land is more expensive than it was even a few years ago. (Mostly true.) Any rise in the price of land is due to increased demand. (Questionable at best.)  Any increase in demand for land is due to increased population. (Q.at best) The world has become "over-populated." (Whatever that
means.)  Therefore, the price of land has increased in America due to the world being "over-populated." HUH?

That's called circular reasoning (among other logical flaws too numerous to list.)

The argument you're trying to make doesn't stand, especially when cast properly..... Let's see if I can avoid brain-freeze as I try to lay out what I think you're trying to argue.
---------------------
Increase in demand causes increase in price.  (Right there, we all see difficulties, but we'll give you this one because the suppply of land is not increasing - except for tiny land-fill projects.)  That's the A=>B (or "A implies B")

World population has increased.  (What your undefined term of "over-population" has to do with this argument remains unclear.)
This asserts A.

Therefore the price of American land has increased. This is the logical "conclusion."  (A very weak conclusion, at best.)
---------------------
Here's the REAL problem: You make two true statments, namely "World population has increased," and "Price of American land has increased." (The second is not as strong as one would hope for.)  And you make NO inference!  If you had laid it out as I just did, you'd soon see how weakly you had written.

Now that's not to say all argumentive writing must take the form A=>B; A; Therefore, B.  Here, you could have written, "American land has become so damned expensive (whatever that means) and mostly due to the world being over-populated.")  Your instincts were correct about the weakness of that paragraph, so you bailed with, "But that's not the point."  Please follow your instincts.  LOL! (Seriously, even a quick read - and some light editing - before hitting the "send" button will improve your writing no end.)

And a quick fix to the paragraph ending "But that's not the point," woulda, coulda, shoulda been dropping that whole paragraph and GETTING to the point!

Again, I use an off-line file to help me organize my thoughts which do flow and change and pop-up as I write the first draft.  I allow myself stream of conciousness writing.  Never DID understand "outline before writing," prefering to use an outline to check the written flow of thoughts.  This is done at the near-to-final draft. I don't have to actually write the outline out, but use those techniques to think about what I've written.  I edit my work before publishing.

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RE: Thesis part one - 4/3/2010 7:12:50 PM   
LanceHughes


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OMG!  Obviously, I was typing while you were typing Part 2........ excuse me for trying to clarify Part 1.  I haven't yet read Part 2, and, once I read the line proceeding it, really don't have much of an intrest in doing so.  My current thought on your writing..... "Rambling, hard to read, pompous, and not interested in dialogue."

Bye-bye.

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RE: Thesis part one - 4/3/2010 7:45:55 PM   
LanceHughes


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To everyone, including the "I ain't readin' nuthin' til' I'm good and ready" guy called Termyn8tor:

Just had to go and see how bad a train wreck had occurred.  WOW!  I have never before seen so much intellectual destruction in one place.  OP: That is why I sent you a short-n-sweet C-Mail suggesting you write off-line and then post.

ETA: Bye-bye!

< Message edited by LanceHughes -- 4/3/2010 7:46:37 PM >


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RE: Thesis part one - 4/3/2010 7:51:15 PM   
OrpheusAgonistes


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LanceHughes

Curiously, a gay friend sent me this link this morning.  The article is a review of a scientist's view on the evolutionary drive of sex with emphasis (and only an emphasis) on "Where do gays fit into evolution?"

ETA: http://seedmagazine.com/content/article/the_gay_animal_kingdom
LOL!


Very interesting link.  Thanks for that.

Roughgarden's book (Evolution's Rainbow) has definitely made my reading list.


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Every sentence I have written here is the product of some disease.-- Wittgenstein

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RE: Thesis part one - 4/3/2010 8:07:31 PM   
LanceHughes


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You're welcome.

And this is why OP needs to make his thesis a one-liner, and go from there..... He's not interested in evolution, near as I can make out, so why bring it up? 

Well, let's NOT string-jack and respect the OP's wish to have no replies.  Yeah, like that'll happen....

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RE: Thesis part one - 4/4/2010 3:53:00 AM   
Termyn8or


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This is it. It i s five in the morning and I have been up all night and I think I can now express this properly.

Manipulation comes in many forms. If you are an advanced marketing graduate you probably already know what I'm going to say. But that is no reason for me to stop.

Let's say you start a company, the Crest toothpaste company. I can be objective because I do not use toothpaste. But say I am charged with the task of getting you to buy our product rather than that of our competitor. How do I do that ? Well first I must analyse what information is generally available and what is not. In other words, when you lie, only lie about things which can't be disproven. While any fallacy can be disproven, most people have not the means to find out, and what's more many will not bother. Now back in the old days you had to pay the dentist. Every filling or procedure cost you money directly from your pocket. So obviously since that is where the money is I go for that. Simple reasoning really, not beyond a five year old IMO.

So I will claim that Crest toothpaste will help prevent cavities and subsequent inevitable dentist bills. It's a win win. Let's say I bought a refrigerator company and decided to offer the longest warraty possible, but only on the sealed system. The compressor etc. which does the actual work to make the cabinet cold and therefore a suitable place to store your food, which is among the most valuable things you "own". Anyone who has had a compressor fail in July knows what I mean. For a hundred dollar compressor you can lose many times that much easily. But my warranty only covers the sealed system.

A bit later a design flaw is found and the sealed system is fine, but due to a backlash of moisture the air flow in the cabinet is impeded, and the result is that the thing does not work properly. It does not keep your food cold and at the humidity range that it should and you lose money replacing the food. My guy comes out and gives you a $500 estimate to fix it but you thought it was covered by the warranty. I am completely indemnified but you need a new fridge. And even if you pay the $500 to fix the problem, there is no modification or upgrade and it will happen again. I am talking about Maytag here, not some schwantz wanker in bumfuct Yugoslavia somewhere.

I warned you that this is only the beginning.

Now this is the sensitive part. Here is a fact. This country was founded by and is inhabited largely by separatists. Whatever grounds will serve, whether they be racial, religious or sexual orientational. (new word ?) It really doesn't matter. Time has proven that we all can get along, but the fact is that they threw us all together too quickly, without time to adapt. That's why there was a race war right here in Cleveland, that's why there were race riots. That's why they win and we lose, because you don't really have to divide and conquer, all you have to do is divide. The divided are already conquered, it's just matter of choosing their "leader" who is nothing but a figurehead at best, and at worst a traitor to his country. It happens all the time, and this thing has been going on for five thousand years.

I am not going to rail about the Jews nor even the Zionists, as I have found they have no copyright on cunning, no patent on pluralism, nor anything else. There are some involved in this manipulation, and if the percentasge is greater among them it is because more of them have enough damn intellect to handle it. I share that trait, and Momma didn't raise any fools. But Jews in no way have a monoply on this, no matter what anyone thinks.

But the fact remains that some people know how to manipulate, and I consider myself among them. The other day at work the boss was bitching about our road Man. The problem was our fault, but what he should've done was to STFU and say "We'll have to take it in and let you know". Instead he admitted fault on the spot and that is not within his pervue, that is determined by me. The boss and I understand one another and it is a quite simple object just to keep one's mouth shut. The guy who did it had never been on the other side of the big desk. The boss, in discussing this with me said "Let him try to make payroll".

So you see many of us are guilty of some form of manipulation, whether by exaggertion, outright lies or even purposeful omission of pertinent facts. Like I said, this problem was indeed our fault (not mine), but it is not his place to say so. The truth doesn't really matter, it is what the customer percieves. In the end we will have wound up taking care of the problem for free, so the actual cost may be minimal to the company, but the fact remains that it was not his job to say so. In basic marketing you'll learn that handling complaints are the most important aspect of customer relations. I think, along with those very advanced in the field belive that it is better to have problems, and resolve them to the customer's satisfaction as it proves certain things to them. At least they think so. It is not our intent that matters, that intent is to simply make as much money as we can. It's called business. But to maintain that you need good customer relations, and fully and completely resolved problem go farther actually in proving that point than any advertising you could ever do.

To give an example of a folly, take one of those cheapo pizza places. Hot and ready when you walk in, 1,300 locations within a mile, five bucks for the pizza, ads on the TV every five minutes. We have three such competitors in the area. All the same, keep the pizzas moving out the door, that is how they make money. Therefore the most logical path is to get as many pizzas moving out the door as possible. However when people actually try to eat the pizzas they find that it's not even worth the five bucks and they would be better off eating the box.

However that is a situation known as customer turnover, and is another major field of study when it comes to marketing. As long as the budget persists you just keep advertising until the market is washed out. Then you cut back, get down to your core stores and lay off a bunch of people to whom you promised all kinds of retirement and benefits to make them do their best for you.

I will say it again just for the record YOU ARE NOT PLAYING WITH FUCKING KIDS HERE !. These people go to special schools to learn this shit and they don't forget much.

Let's go back into the racial thing, because I think that has been well explained. Explain to me the existence of a country known as Czeckoslovakia. The Czecks and Slovaks hated each other with a passion, borne of decades of strife between the two sides. Both are peaceful peoples if left alone. But they simply have too much history. So the exhalted elected most [virulent] benevolent, most well educated leaders of the world decided that these two peoples had to share a country. Iraq was created pretty much the same way and look what happened to them.

It is so simple to see manipulation, and not that hard to emulate. But that doesn't cut it because every situation is different. You have to understand the goals of the "mark". Yes I used that word like a scam artist, which is what the manipulators really are. If I manipulated you into burning the first paper out of a pack of Jokers, and always putting your right sock and shoe on first I would be no less a manipulator. But I would gain nothing.

I have manipulated many to do certain things, but not for my own personal benefit. Mainly for their's. If it came down to it I could probably tell alot of people which hand to wipe their ass with. The general public really is that stupid. I could tell them straight out that they should wipe their ass with their left hand because they shake hands with their right. I can make it make sense to them. This would not be all that difficult and they would never know that they are engaging in an Arab tradition.

As I said I cannot be exhautive on this subject, but there are a few more things worth mentioning. Aesthetics are so important these days. If you look good you do good, at least that is the perception, and perception is the key. It is not what you say that matters, it is what they hear. Hard to grasp ? If so, you are not truly educated, and are therefore subject to this nonconsentual domination. This is fact folks. When you see it coming you can do something, when it hits you without warning it can wreck your judgement, if you have any to start with.

It's like playing chess with Bobby Fisher, you will lose but the experience might be worth it. But you'll have to go to Iceland to do it because he will never come back to the US. Let me not say it, just go out there and find out just why he will never come back. He knows. Icelanders know.

Back to the stream. What about contradictions ? Handled easily, if you don't already have some skewed evidence all you have to do is create it. Easy if you have the money. You can buy a local newschannel for pennies relatively. If you got billions in the bank, and could wipe out half of the national debt there is absolutely no reason for you to do so. Your best option is to go for broke, go for more, go for it all.

Like a real poker game. If time limits are not set, the game continues until there is only one Man at the table and he has cleaned everyone out. The best bet then is to buy the bar a drink. Works both ways. What I have done has moved me into a position of power, which I'll not describe right now, but I assure you my power will outlast my money.
_____________________________________________________________________________________________

Why do I bother to type this out ? Because I want my power to outlast my life. I want people to know. Some of you know and some don't. We are being played like a violin, and I don't like it at all. I am not fooled by it and I will not succumb to it. I do not watch their media, listen only occasionally to the radio in the car, and have no interest in some of the bigeest things going on, like sports. I used to have one of the best five foot TVs in this country, and a surround system that would blow your mind before they came into vogue. I had it where I could turn the front speakers to the radio and get the superior announcements from them, and when the game was on ABC (Monday) my house was better than any bar. In my back speakers I had only crowd noise, you could hear people yelling "fuck you" and all kinds of things because I could remix the ABC audio feed. In the meantime if you had to piss or something (three to four cases of beer in the house) it was loud enough you could hear it in the bathroom or the basement or the driveway, in fact in the neighbor's bathroom.

I gave it all up once I realized what it really is, and that is why I am here to tell you. If you have similar opinions great, if you are enlightened somehow even better. The rest are either ignorant or part of the problem.

T

ETA, I have now read the responses, which I said I would not do until I was done. Lance, I'll get back to you. Your problem with this seems to be mainly based on how it is expressed rather than the content. That's fine, maybe I used too many words, but I am not the only one in the world guilty of that. We'll hash it out a bit later. And quit saying bye bye. Dammit, don't try this shit with me. If you meant it the next post from you would not be there, fact. I do get your point and have been told before that I have a bit different way of expressing myself. I can accept that, but I do try not to ramble.

T

< Message edited by Termyn8or -- 4/4/2010 4:28:49 AM >

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RE: Thesis part one - 4/4/2010 4:24:16 AM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

I do not mean to be presumptuous here, but here it goes anyway.

Freud had it wrong, but only slightly off.



Hasn't Freud being discredited?

One woman's history was central to his theory and there is evidence that he press ganged her into giving him what he wanted to hear. Evidence from the horse's mouth i.e. that same woman.

_____________________________

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Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

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RE: Thesis part one - 4/4/2010 4:39:24 AM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

not excluding some skillful and unlawful acts of those who seek to "socially engineer" us.



It's fairly obvious that most of us want to survive - no great mystery there.

In terms of social engineering.....well.....our behaviour demonstrates what we are....and to take one type of behaviour and suggest that is the real us....and another type and suggest that is social engineering.....well....that to me is beginning with an objective and fitting the 'evidence' around that....as opposed to beginning with the evidence and arriving at a conclusion.

Co-operation is as much a human trait as destruction....it's there for you to see in our daily lives......in fact you could quite easily argue that co-operation is more of a defining feature as we co-operate every day while wars are a mere aberration. Don't know about you but I spend most of my time making life easy for myself and this demands co-operation.

"We are being played like a violin"? You don't know that much then mate.....because the answer surely is that you're playing yourself like a violin....in the same way we all are.....we accept the authority of the state with all its frailties in return for the comforts ensured through the rule of law. That is a cast iron fact - it's called government - which the vast majority of people accept as a necessary factor for society to function in peaceful manner.

It's the greatest illusion of all....."we're being played....we know better....trust us and we'll bring you parity"....I'm sure you believe that but I can't trust anyone promising the earth i.e. something which they can't possibly deliver but think you can and would like everyone to believe that.

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

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RE: Thesis part one - 4/4/2010 4:46:29 AM   
OrpheusAgonistes


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

I do not mean to be presumptuous here, but here it goes anyway.

Freud had it wrong, but only slightly off.



Hasn't Freud being discredited?

One woman's history was central to his theory and there is evidence that he press ganged her into giving him what he wanted to hear. Evidence from the horse's mouth i.e. that same woman.


I think you're probably referring to Anna O (aka Bertha Pappenheim)?  Freud and Breuer seem to have behaved unethically and immorally in their documentation of the "treatment" of Anna O.  They also seem to have bungled her diagnosis and her treatment so badly that it almost killed her.

Freud was an egomaniac, an opportunist, a coke fiend, a self-promoter, a paranoiac and, apparently, something of an all-round jerk (especially when he was coked up and manic).  He was also unbelievably bright and persuasive and, at times, dangerously perceptive.  He hasn't been discredited, much of his work is still extremely important.  But other thinkers and researchers have certainly come along and improved upon what he did and, thank God, been more ethical and more meticulous in their methods.

God knows I'm not here to defend Freudianism (and on Easter Sunday no less!  generations of my stalwart Episcopalian and Anglican ancestors are rolling over in their graves!), just to point out that he left behind mountains of work, analysis, and speculation.  Some of it is valuable, some of it isn't.  It's especially frustrating because it isn't even like with Nietzsche--you can't divide it up into the "No syphilis" vs "chock full of syphilis" piles.  My own view of Freud, as a whole, is summed up by Nabokov's frequent imprecation of him as "that damned witch doctor of Vienna and his cult."  But some of his work is valuable and can't be dismissed out of hand.

But so then anyway, the OP seems to simplify Freud pretty cartoonishly.  I don't think he needs to drag Freud in at all in fact.  Bringing in such a facile reading of Freud really only opens the door for somebody to come along, as you did, and correctly point out that so much of Freud's work is questionable that it doesn't make any sense to automatically appeal to his authority.  There was a time when the 20th century was supposed to "belong to" Freud and Einstein, but that time is long past.

Bottom line, the OP's thesis would probably be stronger without any kind of overt reference to Freud.  That might make him focus a bit more on spelling out what he's really trying to say.  Freud can't be used as shorthand exactly because he produced so much work making disparate claims of severely varying quality.

Even then, I tend to agree with Lance.  It's more than slightly muddled.


_____________________________

What I cannot create, I do not understand.--Feynman

Every sentence I have written here is the product of some disease.-- Wittgenstein

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RE: Thesis part one - 4/4/2010 4:52:54 AM   
NorthernGent


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More than happy to accept your point of view....considering that my reading of psychoanalysis is limited....and I have a feeling yours isn't. Fair enough.

_____________________________

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Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

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RE: Thesis part one - 4/4/2010 5:56:37 AM   
Termyn8or


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Gent, there are many questions afoot about Freud. I do not subscribe to his philosophy at all, but the trio of the id, ego and superego provided a structure for what I wanted to say. I thought I'd made that clear. Jung and others cam e and blew his doors off, but I only wanted the framework, which is somewhat valid.

When the superego is supressed the id can use the ego to do whatever the hell it wants. That was the point. It can be expressed in many different forms but there is a word for people who posess a very high intelligence but no morality whatsoever. I think the term is molloch. I can't remeber right now.

What I am saying is more than that though. Not only are the people morally decrepit, the environment is as well. But which came first, the chicken or the egg ? I do not cast all blame on the people nor even the sheeple. I believe that we got the governments that we deserve. I admit it, I am 49 years old and haven't done a goddam thing in persuit of thei type of goal. It is only now nearing the end that I want to make a mark on life.

And so we all go. Society has changed and quite frankly it is no longer suitable for me. I'm half blind and damn surprised that I can even drive and work. I'm half dead from I think black mold now. I don't really care, I just wish someone would give me the personal info on a rapist or molester or something who got away with it because maybe I will be closeby when I check out. Not that I want to do that, but I am considering the option. The fact is I don't care anymore about myself, and I know what that means. Anything I do now is just whatever. You can't care about others in this state, unless you are planning on a downward trip. I am done, I have lived about three lives, and have has two second (self declared whe I had $$$) childhoods. I was retired at 40 but went through monet so fast that the drunken sailor would be rejected.

I don't care anymore, but I abhore a waste. I have done very well with what I started with, I have turned so many losers into winners that it is not funny. Companies (only a few though) clammor for my extremely valuable time. I have given (US) legal advoce that has saved people's asses from their stuopid charges. These thing are important I thnink and worthy of propogation. That includes my view on how to handle courts in the US, a whole different subject of course, but I'll get around to it.

I started with nothing literally, and what's more I did it three times ! Yes I used to be stupid. My family didn't have money until I taught them how to make it, that means my nuclear family. My Father's side of the family is who taught me all this. You can walk up to my door and I'll take ou to meet my family and friends and they will tell you. I can take you to previous employers and they will tell you. I have a pay stub from the early nineties, want to know what it says ? Total hours 12.0, gross pat $371.00. There are weeks I don't make that much now ! I was never the picture of health, I always smoked, and smoked, and drank since I was about 12. By the time I was 16 I had a job and quit school. I burned the candle at both ends and up one side and down the other. I have few regrets.

I love my life, and am not unhappy with what it has made me. My regrats mainly include things I've done wrong. I was very intoxicable to say the least. I have tried almost every drug there was except for the needle drugs, I would not do that.

I have watched people live and die. I have played with alot of guns. At times money was no object, and we are talking about a span of years starting from my teens. I almost made a typo saying a span of tears but caught it, maybe I should have let it stand because that was my life. I knew more dead people than alive by the time I was 35. This is not bullshit.

I am not long, and as such I want to have people know and understand as I do, although sometimes I am not so good at expressing myself. The world is a very ugly place and I have no pretense about it. I almost got thrown out of here over it.

You see, when you finally don't care, you are rally free. I can't say I am because I hve bills and obligations, but I am getting closer. Very soon I will not care about anything and then I will be truly free. I have become free with my resources, and help and support a few people in hopes they will get their lives together. Life is for those who can survive it. A bit of help from friends does not contitute a breach of the laws of nature IMO. Should I have let thoise people freeze to death ?

And to elaborate just bit on my lack of fear of death, first of all it is a form of freedom, but has other benefits. Life has actually become uncomfoprtable for me, as I am cut of a different cloth so to speak. I don't like the world, I don't like mant people. While I hate none, I love only a few.

So many things have shaped my opinion. I normally walk o drive down the street not caring about the crack whores and such. But then I met D. That threw a little bit of spirit back into me. She was a crack whore and did every nasty thing you could imagine (she could come in handy someday). But she was raped at age two and pimped out by her stepfather once old enough, like 13 or something. Until then only he fucked her. I took her in, and she has never felt like familt before, she had no conception of it. She almost had a problem with not being constantly ordered around and used as a slave nonconsentually.

Now I got her on the ins with my family and she really just doesn't know what to do with herself. She has never had a life like this. She has fucked up and I said "don't worry about it" and she expected retaliation later, which never came and never will. She finally has an environment that as far as I am concerned every child should have, but she had to wait thirty years for it. To understand better, she came from a life of crime and has over thrity felony convictions. But when she walked in here she got the talk. I mean what I say. She was told like everyone else that we handle our own problems and if she calls or in any other way brings cops here I will blow her head off. Now understand that in the beginneing she was thinking oh shit, another crazy who is going to abuse me and all that shit. But over time, since it didn't happen trust grew.

Want more ? Now she is hanging ot with my sinister, and they are getting tight. They went to an east side bar the other night and one dude whio used to know her called her a slut. My sinister grabbed the guy's $30 sunglasses, threw them on the floor and destroyed them with one fell swoop of the foot.

To the best of my knowledge this is all true, and I will get confirmation from a thirds source soon, who was the backup. I have no reason to think they made it up especially when I know the bar and a couple of other people there.

I don't know if you can grasp just how things are around here, and it may seem like a gang mentality to you. I can understand that but we are not after your lunch money, unless you want to buy something from us with it. My family has an ethic, we only want what we earn or deserve, but goddammit we want what we earn or deserve. We have a reportoire of about

More later - business call.

T

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RE: Thesis part one - 4/4/2010 6:05:06 AM   
pahunkboy


Posts: 33061
Joined: 2/26/2006
From: Central Pennsylvania
Status: offline
Yeah well-  then there are CMs that are passive aggressive.    Send a lengthy email to me meant to dialogue- and upon reply- BLOCKED.

So- Term,  (no is is not Term who blocked me)   this would be the id that you speak of.

Curiously for the one BLOCK put on me- there are many who take my emails-- a few even take my calls.

When one looks in the mirror- and doesn't like what they see-  don't blame the mirror.


....and screw this slave stuff.  DIAMONDS and furs and  roses for ME!!!!


LOL.   Yeah- so the id is alive and well on this board- presented both by the person who blocked me and also ON me- by rapping about it.  (my id)

Who knew?





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RE: Thesis part one - 4/5/2010 6:22:41 AM   
NorthernGent


Posts: 8730
Joined: 7/10/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

The fact is I don't care anymore about myself, and I know what that means. Anything I do now is just whatever. You can't care about others in this state, unless you are planning on a downward trip. I am done, I have lived about three lives, and have has two second (self declared whe I had $$$) childhoods. I was retired at 40 but went through monet so fast that the drunken sailor would be rejected.

I don't care anymore, but I abhore a waste.

I love my life, and am not unhappy with what it has made me. My regrats mainly include things I've done wrong. I was very intoxicable to say the least. I have tried almost every drug there was except for the needle drugs, I would not do that.

You see, when you finally don't care, you are rally free. I can't say I am because I hve bills and obligations, but I am getting closer. Very soon I will not care about anything and then I will be truly free.

And to elaborate just bit on my lack of fear of death, first of all it is a form of freedom, but has other benefits. Life has actually become uncomfoprtable for me, as I am cut of a different cloth so to speak. I don't like the world, I don't like mant people. While I hate none, I love only a few.

Now I got her on the ins with my family and she really just doesn't know what to do with herself. She has never had a life like this. She has fucked up and I said "don't worry about it" and she expected retaliation later, which never came and never will. She finally has an environment that as far as I am concerned every child should have, but she had to wait thirty years for it. To understand better, she came from a life of crime and has over thrity felony convictions. But when she walked in here she got the talk. I mean what I say. She was told like everyone else that we handle our own problems and if she calls or in any other way brings cops here I will blow her head off. Now understand that in the beginneing she was thinking oh shit, another crazy who is going to abuse me and all that shit. But over time, since it didn't happen trust grew.

I don't know if you can grasp just how things are around here, and it may seem like a gang mentality to you. I can understand that but we are not after your lunch money, unless you want to buy something from us with it. My family has an ethic, we only want what we earn or deserve, but goddammit we want what we earn or deserve. We have a reportoire of about

More later - business call.

T


Can't say I empathisise T....as in my world life can be whatever you want it to be. And there's only one crack at it - so it's a case of make the most of it.

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to Termyn8or)
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RE: Thesis part one - 4/5/2010 10:28:34 AM   
Termyn8or


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Using FR

One thing I do regret is the length of this thing. Thanks all who put up with my rambling and tried to make sense of it all. Looking back I can see where I could've done better. Submitting this as an actual thesis or dissertation would not yield me a very good grade. It's so easy to let the fingers fly, and even the most careful proofing doesn't seem to help. It all looked fine at the time of course.

I screwed it up to the point where the actual point I think I was trying to make is largely obscured. The maniplutation going on is on so many levels and so pervasive, and insidious to so many.

So Gent, I agree that life is what you make it. Sorry if I sounded like I was whining (whinging) about things, that was not my intention. If I were to whine about anything it would be all the things I didn't do.

Next, my reference to Freud was meant to be as simple as possible. I was trying to illustrate the difference between the "us" and the "them". I used that in hope that many are at least familiar with those base concepts.

Now Lance, you desreve a response, I've finally read your linked article. Quite interesting if I try to apply it to your question about overpopulation. Perhaps that point is hard to see in a purely objective light. Perhaps everything really is relative. In my opinion the world is overpopulated. I also assert that homosexuality is the proper reaction of the whole of the human race to overpopulation. Does that article support this claim ? Possibly. I see most of the examples in the article refer to species that live in some form of a society, so therefore we are not talking about a "lone wolf". This could imply overpopulation though it does not do so blatantly to say the least. I think it possible that aspect has been missed by the author.

One may think overpopulation could be measured by starvation rates, the clamor for living space and so forth, but another article which noone seems to want to read deals with it a bit differently. The subject was a study of overpopulation, and the experiment took some time. They dropped off a bunch of deer on a very lush island, repleat with food and fresh water, and the deer were left to their own mechanism for a time. Surely they would do well i such an environment. Nope.

After so mant years they went back and found more deer than you could shake a stick at, and felled one for examination. They found actual glandular changes, and along with noting their behavior seemed to conclude the the island was overpopulated with deer, even though the necessities were abudant to sustain life, there were problems. Unfortunately that article is difficult to manage as it is a scanned set of JPGs otherwise I would post it. I tried once but got nothing back, so I don't know if people read it and dismissed it or if nobody wanted to deal with the format.

But that article from the 1970s seems to support my assertion, that the world is overpopulated. It also suggests that the condition actually does correct itself. They went back some years later and found the deer population much lower, and autopsy results on another felled animal revealed that tose glandular changes had reversed as well.

Mind you that food was aplenty and the environmnet was excellent. The results indicate that each of us needs a certain amount of space, and definitely alludes to the possibility that the whole population of deer on that island acted as a unit to correct the situation. In relation to the article you brought in, I wonder if a segment of that particular "population" deer had turned to homosexuality. It certainly seems plausible, but they did not directly observe the deer on a day to day basis. I'll send you that article if you like. Thrn you can judge for yourself.

Also about composing offline - I would like to, but I can't seem to find an editor to use that will let me just drop the finished text in here without screwing up the line feeds. Perhaps I can save a copy of the editor used here and have it on my desktop. I might give it a try.

At any rate, I didn't say I didn't want any reponses, just that I was not going to read them right away.

Now if you want me to really get seemingly stupid, get this. The lessons of life via The Flinstones. What was in that show ? Well Fred quit his job and bought a drive in restaurant. It failed and Wilma went and got his old job back. He tired selling graveberry pies at some point, failed and Wilma got his old job back once again. When Fred wrote a nasty letter to Mr. Slate his boss, Wilma goes, drops Slate's glasses so he can't read the letter, and reads him the "new" edited version so he doesn't lose his job. Just what does this do to affect the young and impressionable ?

That's only one of many examples I could come up with, but for now let's leave it at that. In short, everything you see is carefully designed to manipulate you. Every TV show, billboard, junk mailer and even popups on the net are designed specifically for that purpose. Most of us have enough grey matter as adults to see it coming and are pretty much immune to the effects, but what of the young ? In the same TV show the words "You can't fight city hall" and "When something breaks I always say call a professional" were used. Well I'm here to tell you a couple of things. First of all you can fight city hall if you are smart. Second of all you actually can fix your own house, like changing a hot water tank for example, you don't need a plumber who can build a fusion reactor for the job. Three pipes and the flue.

The thing here is that one of the longest running shows ever touted conformity and compliance. Somewhere along that time (I could probably express that better) I was picking the original Star Trek apart for things I deem impossible. I didn't see the manipulation at the time, but looking back it is crystal clear to me. That show was loosely based on The Honeymooners, but I think The Honeymooners was laced with alot of ad lib because Gleason was a decent comedian. Fred was a totally fictional character an as such had no such qualities. Everything you saw on that show was created by the writers.

We have been manipulated for years, many years. This is done by experts and it is so pervasive that alot of people do not see the forest for the trees. We were born into it, we are used to it. We don't see it coming. The theory of advertising has been modified a bit. Now the buzzwords are cheap and easy. This obviously plays on our complacency and laziness. They read us like a book, and as I said, play us like a violin.

Perhaps we also play ourself, an interesting point. Contrary to some of the things I've said, I think I can say that I am not unhappy with my life. But am I lying to myself ? Logically, there is no way in hell I could say for sure.

I can say with reasonable certainty that I do not fall for the manipulation now, but what of the past ? All I can do is examine all of my influences in retrospect and try to figure it out.

Again, thank you all for putting up with me. Be well, and last but not least - I'll BE BAACK.

T

< Message edited by Termyn8or -- 4/5/2010 10:35:54 AM >

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