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ORIGINAL: subfever

It seems that the only rational conclusion, is that the system itself is flawed.

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ORIGINAL: Politesub53

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ORIGINAL: subfever

It seems that the only rational conclusion, is that the system itself is flawed.

In what way ?

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ORIGINAL: Politesub53

I dont agree that a monetary based system is the cause for greed. History has shown that when goods were bartered instead of cash there was still greed. History has also shown us that where there is a communist society there is still greed.

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The banks wouldn't have been able to cause the financial meltdown if the right checks and balances had stayed in place.

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Society, whether it is goods based, or cash based, has always traded. Trade buys goods...

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...the lack of control, self impossed or otherwise, produces the greed.

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ORIGINAL: Silence8

I don't see an immediate alternative to money, maybe in some hypothetical future, but presently credit, capital and communities themselves can be restructured.

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My theory of late is that the problem with capitalism manifests itself in price inflation across the board due to 'entities of size', including everyday items as well as large things, and especially housing, such that everything is in effect rented.

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We should re-name the system 'feudalism with Capital characteristics'.

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You do realize the gravity of that statement I hope. In a class war equality can only come when their money is no good. There is only one way that is going to happen.

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Yes, which is all the more reason not to repeat those past failures.

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What, in your opinion, specifically caused the meltdown, and what specific checks and balances would have prevented it?

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Indeed, mankind has always traded. There was a time when this was necessary. Technology will enable us to solve problems that couldn't be solved back then. It's time to move forward, evolve, and stop allowing the past to impose future limitations upon us.

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I disagree. It's the perception of scarcity and its offspring of fear that initially produces greed. Then, through accumulation of wealth, the individual's perception of scarcity diminishes and evolves into ego/self-esteem, which drives his pursuit of social stratification.

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You forget that it is these past failures, which led to cohesive societies, that now live in relative peace.

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Fraud, on a massive scale, caused the meltdown. The man in the street buying houses, with no chance to repay the loan. The mortgage companies dishing out loans, with very few basic checks. Major companies inflating profits falsely, to enable more growth. All of these could have been prevented with the basic checks and balances that existed in the 90s.

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You overlook a simple point. How does the individual pay to obtain this "latest technology" It doesnt come free, it isnt produced for free. Do you think research and development companies will start giving this stuff away ? Monsanto say otherwise.

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“It's the perception of scarcity and its offspring of fear that initially produces greed. Then, through accumulation of wealth, the individual's perception of scarcity diminishes and evolves into ego/self-esteem, which drives his pursuit of social stratification.”
The above quote makes no sense to me. Scarcity of what ?

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How does scarcity transpose into ego ?

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I wonder how far history and technological development would need to regress, to reach the level you are on about.

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"You misunderstand entirely. Technological development would advance exponentially under a system where the motive for profit has been removed."

Perhaps. But as it stands now, even on an individual level the desire to succeed is stronger than the desire to create.

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New breakthroughs right now mean profit$

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That is why anyone works.

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So removing the profit motive is much more easily said than done.

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Way easier said than done. Say you want a fusion reactor. So you walk a couple doors down and see your buddy. You tell him "I need a bunch of oxygen free copper tubing, a tank or so of liquid nitrogen and a high powered laser". Things don't work that way. Research costs money. So unless we all become incredibly wealthy and altruistic tomorrow morning, things will stay the same.

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But yes, even the threat of execution doesn't work to get these assholes to actually work. Like people who claim the death penalty is not a deterrent, with whom I disagree but they have one valid point. People generally don't think they're going to get caught. No threat of punishment no matter how gruesome will work when someone thinks they won't get caught.

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I think I'll break out the rototiller and start getting ready for the garden. At least I might have a clue as to the quality of what grows there. Other than that, I, like the rest of us are at their mercy.

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ORIGINAL: Silence8

I'm not sure if the idea of 'eliminating money' is a coherent idea, in the sense of you cannot eliminate money any easier than eliminating exchange all together, and even eliminating language. Life is all about language and exchange.

(M - Money, C - Commodities)

Basically, the way the industry/ business co-op works is using this formula: M -> C -> M' , where M' > M.

Human Rights = $ M / human

So, there are a host of problems related to M -> C -> M', but there's also this issue of M -> M' , which is similar in effect as when a microphone is faced towards its speaker, a sort of direct feedback. Banking is essentially M -> M', I think, while industry is more about M -> C -> M'. Business hinges between the two, using one to prop up the other, alternating.