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A question for male slaves/subs (though all can join in) - 4/4/2010 6:04:43 PM   
trueshadow


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Do you feel that society views male slaves and subs as being 'less of a man'?  I have had trouble my whole life admitting (except anonymously, as I am here) that I am a slave, and long to be under a woman.

Society (and women in general) generally want their men to be rough and tough, and back down to no one. 

Yet I am quite capable in 'the real world', hold down a responsible job, and have no trouble holding my own with women or men, superiors or subordinates.  OTOH, in my private life, I know I need a strong woman to take me and lead me.  I am just more comfortable and happy as one who dedicates his life to serving his Superior. 

It is a dichotomy that has bothered me from day one.  I'd love it if society would accept submissive men, but they don't.  It's a source of some pain to me.  It's SOOO difficult to meet a women not in the scene, and have them tell you that they like to experiment, but definitely NOT in the vein of the 'whips and chains' set.
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RE: A question for male slaves/subs (though all can joi... - 4/4/2010 6:40:41 PM   
MISTRESSREE


Posts: 31
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In answer to your question..
I do think Society is generally very non-accepting of the General BDSM Community...
It is becoming more and more mainstream I believe..
For The younger generation I think....
As in Goth and such...
Multiple piercings....
The generation over 30 is mostly not even aware of it???
And do not understand the Magick of Power Exchange....
For a True Domme(Not one just looking to make a buck)
For one who posseses the True heart of a slave....
Although I have only been into this lifestyle for just over a year and a half....
I have not had the opportunity to have much hands on experience yet....
Power Exchange is a lot mental as far as that goes....
That is just My Opinion...
Mistress Ree

(in reply to trueshadow)
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RE: A question for male slaves/subs (though all can joi... - 4/4/2010 6:44:49 PM   
lovingpet


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I would go so far as to say that society (assuming American society) looks down on ANYONE who wants and even needs to be controlled by another.  It is a longstanding and even foundational undercurrent for American society that there is to be a certain stubborn and fiercely independent streak and self determination in every single person regardless of gender or other factors.  Anything that appears to dilute or erode that hallmark characteristic represents weakness and even some degree of lack of loyalty to the heritage surrounding the person.  Of course, neither are true, but it is nonetheless a societal bias that makes life as a submissive person very uncomfortable at times and even has many questioning their self worth.

While I would contend that there is a subsection of the submissive orientation that may exist primarily out of some kind of character or self esteem issues, they are certainly not what I see in my circle of submissive friends.  I see us all as very intelligent, self determined, and highly independent in their thinking and approach to the world at large.  I would venture a guess that most of us don't view ourselves that way as often as we should because of this bias that seems to be drilled into us from the moment we enter this with a submissive orientation.  There is a tendency to downplay our often intense personalities and strengths not so much to fit into the cookie cutter image of a submissive person, but because we seem to think one or the other is out of place.  Either we are submissive or we are strong and capable, but we are often indoctrinated that we can't be both.

In fact, however, we CAN be both and many of us ARE.  OP, you state yourself that you are very capable in life.  You are productive in your job.  You can hold your own in social and even intimate settings.  This is not the profile of a man who is negligent of his responsibilities.  This is what is called in my family a "stand up man."  I would rather have a stand up man of ANY orientation over one that doesn't meet his obligations and lacks basic social graces.  Many girls want the bad boy or the tough guy.  The problem is when that gets all too real.  Most don't actually want that when it is time to put down roots and they want to start a family.

The bottom line, OP, is that it is hard to find a good partner regardless of orientation.  It is hard to find a good partner regardless of gender.  It is just hard to find a good partner period....and it should be.  A person of quality and character is a rare find and worth every single moment spent waiting for them to come into your life.  That being said, one cannot expect to sit at home and expect that perfect person to fall into their lap.  We hear all the time about how it all happens when we least expect it and when we finally just stopped looking and started living and enjoying our lives as is.  While that's true, it is also a fact that if you allow the hopelessness of the task swallow you up, there will be no happily ever after.  Risk little, gain little, lose little.  Risk much, gain much, lose much.  Unfortunately, that is the way of life.  Our return is approximately equal to our investment.  You can't give up.  You also can't stop living your life based on what might be one day.  Go.  Live your life well.  Remain open to what might be in store for you.  Don't let the stacked deck cause you to fold.  Invest in people and passions and reap those rewards.  One day it just might be that woman you seek for your life. 

lovingpet   

< Message edited by lovingpet -- 4/4/2010 6:51:05 PM >


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RE: A question for male slaves/subs (though all can joi... - 4/4/2010 7:06:17 PM   
Rochsub2009


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quote:

ORIGINAL: trueshadow

Do you feel that society views male slaves and subs as being 'less of a man'?  I have had trouble my whole life admitting (except anonymously, as I am here) that I am a slave, and long to be under a woman.

Society (and women in general) generally want their men to be rough and tough, and back down to no one. 



Personally, i don't find being a male submissive and being "rough and tough" to be mutually exclusive concepts.

i am a male submissive.  But i am also a former college athlete who can kick most men's ***.  Guys usually get that.  i know that i could easily take on any 3 male Doms from my local BDSM group simultaneously without trying very hard.  Moreover, they all know it too. None of them would ever dare behave disrespectfully towards me.  i am submissive only to Dommes, but i am dominant over most males. 

One thing that i always hear from Dommes is that they feel "safe" when they are out with me.  i have dated lifestyle Dommes who were also pro-Dommes.  They would almost always ask me to accompany them when they were meeting with a new sub.  Knowing that i was nearby always seemed to prevent bad behavior by the client.

However, having said that, i must admit that i don't declare my submissive nature publicly.  i do recognize that there is a portion of society that is not accepting of WIITWD.  But i keep my s-status private for professional reasons, NOT because i am not "rough and tough".

< Message edited by Rochsub2009 -- 4/4/2010 7:08:01 PM >


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RE: A question for male slaves/subs (though all can joi... - 4/5/2010 9:56:40 PM   
QuirkyAnne


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quote:

ORIGINAL: lovingpet

I would go so far as to say that society (assuming American society) looks down on ANYONE who wants and even needs to be controlled by another.  It is a longstanding and even foundational undercurrent for American society that there is to be a certain stubborn and fiercely independent streak and self determination in every single person regardless of gender or other factors.  Anything that appears to dilute or erode that hallmark characteristic represents weakness and even some degree of lack of loyalty to the heritage surrounding the person.  Of course, neither are true, but it is nonetheless a societal bias that makes life as a submissive person very uncomfortable at times and even has many questioning their self worth.



I believe you have stated perfectly what I've been trying to put into words for a really long time when it comes to why it is that both male and female subs/slaves have a difficult time in finding someone outside of or not open to learning about and gaining even the most elementary fundamentals of the "lifestyle."


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RE: A question for male slaves/subs (though all can joi... - 4/5/2010 10:17:17 PM   
LPslittleclip


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society does treat the sub/slaves as less of status than them i am a slave and i find it very rewarding, and liberating from the rigors of the real world.

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LadyPact

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RE: A question for male slaves/subs (though all can joi... - 4/6/2010 9:25:27 PM   
LadyOddsworth


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I think a man who is a sub / slave is strong to be true to himself. I coudn't do it. As far as society as a whole ... It is not understood so is there much of an opinion?

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RE: A question for male slaves/subs (though all can joi... - 4/6/2010 9:48:06 PM   
Domin8tingUrDrmz


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While society at large may seem to shun submissive males, you have to realize that society at large shuns everyone for anything. Continue to be strong in your submission, be happy with who you are, accept yourself. Once you accept yourself and are content with your life, society at large's opinion really doesn't matter.

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RE: A question for male slaves/subs (though all can joi... - 7/2/2010 8:25:02 PM   
joey46


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Yes, I do think that the whole idea of a male being submissive makes most people very uncomfortable.  There's just something that is "not right" about it.  Ever notice how many people want to have their noses into other people's relationships for all kinds of reasons.  I remember my parents being all in a twit about my aunt and uncle deciding that they would rather use the money they had been saving up to buy a washer and dryer to buy silver to make jewelry and just keep going to the laundromat.  My god!  Imagine if they found out that my aunt had him in bra and panties while he washed the dishes and braided her hair.

But, then again, most people are not comfortable with most versions of genuineness.



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RE: A question for male slaves/subs (though all can joi... - 7/2/2010 10:50:15 PM   
WestBaySlave


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 I think society looks down on submission of any kind. Because of traditional gender roles, submissive women are much more acceptable, but still looked down on in their own way.

All in all women have it worse, because if they're submissive they're cliched as weak-minded baby makers, and if they're dominant they're shrewish bitches. Men at least have the option of winning and being the strong, dominant, and independent ( all other options equating loser ).

I'd complain, but I'm gay, so I'm quite used to society forfeiting my masculinity and critiquing my character for reasons that have nothing to do with me and my life.

Change open-minded people's opinions by example and explanation, just forget about close-minded people altogether - there's nothing you can do to change their views.


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RE: A question for male slaves/subs (though all can joi... - 7/3/2010 1:34:22 PM   
oksubby


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There may be a regional aspect to this as well... Seems in some of the BDSM groups I've been a part of here in the buckle of the Bible belt think very little of submissive men (real leather groups excluded, happily). I've heard it's better in more enlightened parts of the country. Any sub-set of a regional community is made up of people from the broader community by definition... And social change comes slowly in extremely conservative areas. Just my two cents...

-oksubby

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RE: A question for male slaves/subs (though all can joi... - 7/3/2010 3:47:44 PM   
MagisterCapto


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Now this might just be me, but if you are into something deeply enough consider it a lifestyle, rather then just a bedroom kink, than you shouldn't be ashamed of admitting it. What society, that is people you do not know, and whose opinions have little to no effect on your life, says, regarding a certain lifestyle, shouldn't bother you, as long as you are serious.
The wish to hide something (that is not in serious conflict with federal law) points either towards not having thought something through well enough, or giving too much about other peoples opinions.
(But of course, that is just my perspective, and I'll admit that living by those standards takes a little getting used to.)

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RE: A question for male slaves/subs (though all can joi... - 7/3/2010 5:43:13 PM   
slavekal


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I am with Roch. I am a strong, muscular guy, and I am not ashamed of what I am. I wear my slave chain proudly 24/7. I have also noticed an interesting phenomenon. When I take my lady out in her rickshaw, many men's eyes light up. The obvious serving in a strong way resonates with a lot of them. Black guys in particular identify with it. A lot of them comment to me, "that's how you treat your queen!" Men and women alike give thumbs up and encourage the lady touse the buggy whip.

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RE: A question for male slaves/subs (though all can joi... - 7/3/2010 7:12:30 PM   
DesFIP


Posts: 25191
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From: Apple County NY
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quote:

ORIGINAL: WestBaySlave

I think society looks down on submission of any kind. Because of traditional gender roles, submissive women are much more acceptable, but still looked down on in their own way.

All in all women have it worse, because if they're submissive they're cliched as weak-minded baby makers, and if they're dominant they're shrewish bitches. Men at least have the option of winning and being the strong, dominant, and independent ( all other options equating loser ).

I'd complain, but I'm gay, so I'm quite used to society forfeiting my masculinity and critiquing my character for reasons that have nothing to do with me and my life.

Change open-minded people's opinions by example and explanation, just forget about close-minded people altogether - there's nothing you can do to change their views.




I would think it would be easier to be a self admitted sub in the gay community. After all, that's where s & m and BDSM in modern America derives from. Or do you get looked down on even in all gay groups?


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RE: A question for male slaves/subs (though all can joi... - 7/3/2010 8:10:40 PM   
hopelesslyInvo


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absolutely.

now your viewpoints and semantics could get confusing or cause more trouble; in example blurting out publicly that you're a slave.  some people would look at you like you're crazy, i'd probably just ask why you use the word slave when there is no 'owner'.

ideally, i'd communicate with your audience based on their vocabulary.  if you're wanting to admit how you feel to people in your life try using words that will make sense to them.  saying "i'm a slave and seek to serve my mistress in whatever way she desires" sounds to us fairly normal, but to the randoms it sounds like jargon.  unlike normal jargon though they understand the words close enough to make wrong assumptions as to what you mean.

tell them "when i find someone important, i start caring so much that i lose myself a bit and get wrapped up doing things to make sure they're as happy as i can make them.  it's like an obsession, where i find myself to a point of just waiting for the next thing they ask, curious of what or when it will be.  i don't know why; it's like playing fetch with a dog, i don't know why i enjoy bringing the ball back every time she throws it, but it suits me ya know?", and they'll probably just nudge you with their elbow and say "yeah, i get what you're trying to say".

take a different approach and say "i like women that are just a little bit crazy, a little bit controlling, with maybe a bit too much aggression.  you find someone with a fire in the like that and you just want to let them take the wheel while you sit back and enjoy the ride.  it's a blast just getting into trouble or doing something stupid with her, you don't find women like that too often.", and they'll understand in their own way.  you might even inspire jealousy or a new-found interest in them.

these are my words of course, i don't know what you would want to say, so i of course can't tell you how to say it, but i think you can get the point.

with a lot of vanillas you could just get away with saying "i like rough sex, women who will fight you a bit, maybe even tie you up on occasion and like to take the lead" and you'll get patted on the back for it with a lot of guys.

society really doesn't matter much though; we do what we must, though i'd argue that more and more society becomes more accepting if not appreciative for such traits in men.  hell, just the words "team edward" are enough to prove my point, but looking back through recent decades you'll easily notice a change both appearance and personality of the men society were fond of.

i'm afraid kink is another matter entirely, both in telling people about it and in acceptance.  while i understand the need to tell people a bit about what makes you tick, i would question why anyone vanilla needs to be aware of your kinks and fetishes.

if your fetishes drive your relationship though, i can't see why you bother trying to meet women not in the scene, look for the ones who are.

-

being submissive or being a submissive doesn't really "make" you anything that wasn't already obvious though.  society has its surface level views, but individuals differ in opinion and ultimately your actions are going to decide whether you're less of a man or not.  people are often surprised by the change of outcome when simply changing the scenario, how likely are you to react when someone make a shitty comment about you as compared to someone you care about?  we may seem weak depending what they know and what their perception is, but some of us get our strength elsewhere or simply are strong in different ways.

in the end, do you really care if people you don't and won't ever interact with or even society as a whole thinks you're less of a man?

reverse psychology dictates that i ask if a real man would be affected by such petty things, or if it takes a stronger man to yield; i'm sure you get the point.


< Message edited by hopelesslyInvo -- 7/3/2010 8:19:27 PM >


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RE: A question for male slaves/subs (though all can joi... - 7/3/2010 8:47:15 PM   
seekingOwnertoo


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quote:

ORIGINAL: trueshadow

Do you feel that society views male slaves and subs as being 'less of a man'?


Just a quick comment to point out …

In ancient times (like the Roman Empire), society thought that men fought to the death to avoid becoming a slave.

Those who surrendered, and accepted slavery, where less than human, and certainly not men. Thus deserving to be slaves.

Today’s society is no more understanding.

****************
Thought it would be smart to add: this is not a value judgement, just a comment. It is up to you to decide who and what you are.


< Message edited by seekingOwnertoo -- 7/3/2010 8:53:28 PM >

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RE: A question for male slaves/subs (though all can joi... - 7/3/2010 9:23:59 PM   
WestBaySlave


Posts: 501
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP

quote:

ORIGINAL: WestBaySlave

I think society looks down on submission of any kind. Because of traditional gender roles, submissive women are much more acceptable, but still looked down on in their own way.

All in all women have it worse, because if they're submissive they're cliched as weak-minded baby makers, and if they're dominant they're shrewish bitches. Men at least have the option of winning and being the strong, dominant, and independent ( all other options equating loser ).

I'd complain, but I'm gay, so I'm quite used to society forfeiting my masculinity and critiquing my character for reasons that have nothing to do with me and my life.

Change open-minded people's opinions by example and explanation, just forget about close-minded people altogether - there's nothing you can do to change their views.




I would think it would be easier to be a self admitted sub in the gay community. After all, that's where s & m and BDSM in modern America derives from. Or do you get looked down on even in all gay groups?



Well, I'd say firstly that I don't really live in the gay world per se, in the sense that most people I know are straight and my social circle doesn't focus on the gay scene.

That being said, the segment that consists of those actively involved in gay culture is actually just a small but well-publicized fraction of homosexuality as a whole. There is a huge mass of gay people, both in and out of the closet, and especially in the conservative parts of the world ( which, when it comes to attitudes towards homosexuality, is most of the world ), that have very different values. This makes things complicated. There are many gays and lesbians out there intolerant of alternate lifestyles, whether D/s or otherwise, and there are even many  intolerant of other gays and lesbians ( it sounds odd, but even some out of the closet gay folks are the most homophobic people you'll ever meet ).

Most out and proud vanilla gay guys I know who I've spoken to about my submissive side to have been extremely tolerant and understanding about who and what I am, but they're not the majority of gay people out there, nor the majority of people I interact with on a day to day basis.

Perhaps worthy of noting here is that while I find many gay vanilla folks very tolerant of D/s lifestyle, the same cannot be said of many self-identified old guard leathermen, many of who have a strong resentment towards vanilla gay culture and non-leather D/s culture, and I've often encountered an active hatred of the women, feminine men, and the transgendered. I might have just had phenomenally bad luck in my dealings with leathermen, but in my dealings with people from that subculture, I've found it a depressingly intolerant segment for a group that is in itself quite marginalized.

< Message edited by WestBaySlave -- 7/3/2010 9:27:20 PM >

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RE: A question for male slaves/subs (though all can joi... - 7/4/2010 8:47:36 AM   
DesFIP


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From: Apple County NY
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Thanks for answering. My experience with gay society is on Fire Island which is traditionally very accepting of all, vanilla to leather and in between. But of course, it may well be that those who cannot deal with women, are the ones I don't meet.

It sounds depressing as all hell. And a run of very bad luck considering what a truly fine person you are.


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RE: A question for male slaves/subs (though all can joi... - 7/5/2010 3:19:49 PM   
pyroaquatic


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From: Pyroaquatica
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Society is junk when it comes to 'perceptions'. The telephone skewering effect leads to generalizations that hold no water.

fuck you society. Fuck you. i reject you.

i do not have to accept anything anyone pushes into my head. i'm not weak willed or passive.

My strength will only give in to ONE person. after she breaks me down and strips me to the core little else matters.
So what if I am pussy whipped. that is as happy as I am going to be.

until then my ass is mine.



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You are what your deep, driving desire is.
As your desire is, so is your will.
As your will is, so is your deed.
As your deed is, so is your destiny.
-Brihadaranyaka Upanishad IV.4.5

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RE: A question for male slaves/subs (though all can joi... - 7/6/2010 12:58:53 PM   
Blue2476


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Society in general likes to look down on others to feel better about their own faults (both perceived and real). Each individual person has a duty to enjoy their life because you only get one shot at it (that we know of ). As a Dominant, I find it rather attractive when a man who is by society's standards alpha but chooses to submit to me. Besides, just because I am a Dominant doesn't mean I stopped being a woman and I expect any submissive man to be able to physically protect me as a man.

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