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RE: How to end Topping from the Bottom - 4/6/2010 3:00:53 PM

leadership527

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael
Inform the top/dom that in order for you to top from the bottom...they have to...DRUMROLL PLEASE...they have to be bottoming from the top.

priceless

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RE: How to end Topping from the Bottom - 4/6/2010 4:11:29 PM

SimplyMichael

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quote:

ORIGINAL: leadership527

quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael
Inform the top/dom that in order for you to top from the bottom...they have to...DRUMROLL PLEASE...they have to be bottoming from the top.

priceless

Jeff, I figured you would see the humor in it!

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RE: How to end Topping from the Bottom - 4/6/2010 5:31:37 PM

Smutmonger

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I like it when someone tops from the bottom-and I give them a bit more than they expected. But not neccesarily what they asked for.

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RE: How to end Topping from the Bottom - 4/6/2010 5:38:05 PM

petmonkey

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i have a daydream about combining quotes from y'all with traditional home crafts. This idea would be perfect embroidered on a pillow--you know, like those ones with affirmations on them and such.

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RE: How to end Topping from the Bottom - 4/6/2010 5:42:15 PM

leadership527

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quote:

ORIGINAL: allthatjaz
To be honest I wouldn't think of it as topping from the bottom. I would think of it as a problem that needed sorting out.

*chuckles* I'm afraid that you've exceeded the maximum allowable limit of common sense. You are now prohibited from posting for the next 48 hours or until you say something really stupid to even things out.

I mean serious... Carol WANTS to submit to me... well, not exactly. Carol wants to please me which just happens to involve submitting. I want to own her. So given how perfectly that all dovetails, then if it isn't working, something must "need some sorting out". And last I checked, I was the one in charge which means it's MY problem to get it sorted.

< Message edited by leadership527 -- 4/6/2010 5:44:38 PM >

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RE: How to end Topping from the Bottom - 4/6/2010 7:19:08 PM

Andalusite

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I like how you think, Michael! Actually, my first introduction to the phrase "topping from the bottom" was in, I believe, "Screw The Roses" where it is used to mean thwacking/tying someone up to orders, and "bottoming from the top" was telling the other person how to tie/thack them. That makes much more sense to me than the way it seems to get used in a D/s context.

One thing I really like about my Master, that gave me more confidence in submitting to him, is that he said pretty much straight out that he doesn't think in those terms. He welcomes my input, and wants me to be direct in asking for what I want/need, and then he'll make the determination. Sometimes the answer is, "after dinner," or "I have other plans for you tonight" or even "no, that doesn't appeal to me."

quote:

ORIGINAL: Smutmonger
I like it when someone tops from the bottom-and I give them a bit more than they expected. But not neccesarily what they asked for.

Hmm, when I was with my previous Dominant, he frequently did that. He didn't give me a hard time about topping from the bottom per se, he just liked to do it hard enough that I didn't enjoy it after all, or keep me on tenterhooks about whether or not he would do it. I didn't have a serious objection to that - if he wanted to hurt me more than I liked, that was his perogative. It did make it more and more difficult to ask for anything I actually wanted, though. He was very into those bittersweet "I hate loving this/love hating this" moments, but he did sometimes indulge me, too.

< Message edited by Andalusite -- 4/6/2010 7:20:02 PM >

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RE: How to end Topping from the Bottom - 4/6/2010 9:37:19 PM

DWCskitten

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

Inform the top/dom that in order for you to top from the bottom...they have to...DRUMROLL PLEASE...they have to be bottoming from the top.

And there is a definite difference between an s-type just requesting (or begging for) what she wants, and being manipulative and whiny to get it. i believe the first is just communication, but the second is TFTB. TFTB isn't successful, so long as the D-type nips it in the bud and retains all the decision-making.

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact
Sorry, Michael. We may be disagreeing on this one.

The issue isn't ending topping from the bottom. It's not allowing it to ever begin.

Exactly!!

quote:

ORIGINAL: Smutmonger

FR........this is something that usually happens to guys who will do anything to get laid.

Laughing my ass off!!

~kitten~

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RE: How to end Topping from the Bottom - 4/7/2010 12:39:55 AM

Whiplashsmile4

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quote:

ORIGINAL: afkarr

quote:

ORIGINAL: Smutmonger

"Players" who don't really get off on D/s power rituals can also have rich and meaningful relationships. Not everyone wants to be a kink trekkie.

You just became my new fav "online" Dom....or Top....or whatever kind of freak you are, lol

ssshhhh.....don't tell any body you think it's Ok for 2 freaks to kink together without all the associated trappings, they'll kick you out of the brotherhood of weal twue Doms.

LOL... I insist upon having somebody crawl on their hands and knees and beg me with their whole heart before they can crack open a box of cereal. They have to ask permission to turn the water faucet on and permission again just to turn it off. Just kidding... Good lord some people take things to the nth Degree of Trekkiedom though.

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RE: How to end Topping from the Bottom - 4/8/2010 1:58:20 AM

kadi

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quote:

Inform the top/dom that in order for you to top from the bottom...they have to...DRUMROLL PLEASE...they have to be bottoming from the top.

I agree. (imagine that, Sir?) Topping from the bottom doesn't exist unless the Dominant -allows- it.
I have had many accuse my behavior of topping from the bottom, and I may not even realize I'm doing it. But it's not because I'm a brat, or want my way. In the past, it's been an unconscious attempt to get him to take the control BACK. And obviously, that relationship failed, because while he was a good man, he wasn't the type of dominant I need.

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RE: How to end Topping from the Bottom - 4/8/2010 2:55:40 AM

allthatjaz

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Lots of dominants enjoy a little pushiness now and again. I certainly enjoy my sub being a little riled from time to time when we go into the thrashing stuff. Its pushes my triggers in all the right ways. I enjoy S/m, its energetic and stimulating. Some subs just lay and take it and thats fine for some but I need an energetic feed back and if that includes the occasional answer back from her then thats a great trigger for me to come down hard on her and because she knows how unpredictable I am, she knows that this is probably all going to end in tears.
Never mind though... I love tears

The problem with the term 'topping from the bottom' is it carries nothing but negative connotations with it. It could mean many things but it tends to be thought of as a bad thing.
Way back, before I met S, I met a few Doms off this site. They blatantly tried it on (dominance wise) and I blatantly let them know that they were not getting through. One even said that I was 'topping from the bottom' which is pretty hysterical given the circumstances!

Then we have the frustrated sub that's been sucked in by some guy who likes the thrill of the chase but now he's got the goods he doesn't know what to do with them. She's been mislead and she's all his if only he can take her. Nothings happening. He's gone all stagnant on her and so she tries a little 'topping from the bottom'!

If dominants don't believe that a newly found sub won't test him out, he needs to get himself on a psychology course. A submissive tests her dominant to reassure herself that he really can take the lead. Once she knows she stops testing him. Submissives don't just submit to anyone. If he's wishy washy and inconsistent with her then she's sitting in a place that doesn't feel safe. Topping from the bottom in cases like this are pretty normal.

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RE: How to end Topping from the Bottom - 4/8/2010 4:47:27 AM

CaringandReal

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

Sorry, Michael. We may be disagreeing on this one.

The issue isn't ending topping from the bottom. It's not allowing it to ever begin.

What is topping from the bottom? I think that there's a distinction between doing that and testing limits/discovering boundaries (which is done by some submissives so that the do not accidentally tresspass those in the future) but I'm not sure where that line is, except maybe in the submissive's attitude or motivation, which is not always visible.

I agree with your original point. though. Once topping from the bottom is established, it's difficult to impossible to reverse the pattern, so it's far better never to let it start in the first place.

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RE: How to end Topping from the Bottom - 4/8/2010 5:31:49 AM

CaringandReal

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quote:

ORIGINAL: lovingpet

I've said it before and I'll say it before. There is no topping from the bottom. Thinking makes it so.

I've known a lot of submissives who intentionally (and, occasionally, unintentionally) set out to control their dominants. They are sometimes confused about their motivations for doing so, but the acts themselves are clearly intentional, Maybe they have weak dominants, or, as Smutmonger pointed out, they wound up with somone who'll do anything to get laid (same diff), but intention exists there too: submissives pick their partners. Most are not entirely innocent babes wandering in the woods who fall prey to the first big bad wolf with a grin to come along. And a submissive orientied toward subverting control, even if he or she winds up with a strong partner, will still look for buttons, weak spots, pressure points, and try to use them with the dominant. If they don't succeed, they leave and find someone easier to control. While it may not be true on this message board (hard to say withouth knowing anyone is person) that sort of submissive is quite common, at least among the submissives I've met face-to-face. Sincerity is a rare trait.

The cat analogy falls to pieces at this point, because, unlike cats, most submissives do not share a simple, common psychology. And even some cats don't share this psychology. My cat, for instance, was abused by a former owner and obedience training would be a nightmarish thing to do to her, given her background. But, due to how timid those experienceshave made her, such training is not (yet) needed and may never be. I am actively encouraging her to be disobedient, to relax enough to show some fire and spark... and naughtiness. :)

So very many times I've encountered submissives who, while in public profess their innocent sweet obedience and love of service, intentionally choose weak dominant partners whom they can walk all over in reality. They want to be seen as submissive, in their heart of hearts they do not want to give having the control in the reelationship. Or they have "issues" that make them want to score points and win battles in a relationship, despite thei professed desires to submit. If someone calling themselves submissive is not really interested in being controlled, or wants to play games and subvert control, the firmest hand and the best training in the world is no good. Taking care not to choose that sort of partner in the first place is a skill that would behove new dominants to develop. You don't have to be intentionally malicious to do this sort of control gaming, you just need to be fucked up, neroutic or worse, which, in fact, many submissives are.

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RE: How to end Topping from the Bottom - 4/8/2010 5:43:40 AM

CaringandReal

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

Inform the top/dom that in order for you to top from the bottom...they have to...DRUMROLL PLEASE...they have to be bottoming from the top.

Wow, this thread got wierd. It was more of a sarcastic one liner than deep philosophy. I was mocking those who call it topping from the bottom if their submissive so much as utters an opinion.

As for what is topping/bottoming, in the old days...everyone called themselves tops and bottoms for the most part, dominant and submissive are reletively recent additions to the bdsm lexicon. Just glance at any of the leather books, such as The LeatherMan's Handbook, they call everyone S or Ms...Sadists or Masochists. In Dossie's books which came out later, it was all about Tops and Bottoms.

And my cat sits politely at my feet till I give a hand gesture and only then does he jump in my lap.

Yeah, the thread has gotten weird. But threads tend to do that, you know? :p

I remember the topping/bottoming days, and I remember when and exactly how the paradigm shifted to include dominance/submission. Like many larger world events that appear random, this shift was intentionally designed and required a lot of tireless work to execute. I had something of a front-row seat during the whole affair: it was fasicnating to watch. The top/bottom paradigm was simply too limited, too impoverished. It left out so much (the dynamics of control and power exchange, even the concept of slavery--top/bottom was all aboiut consent and constant consent) that was important, even essential, to some people and that deserved conscious recognition and explicit verbalization (clearly, power exchange often existed in many top/bottom relationships of that time, it just wasn't spoken of or acknowledged much).

But sometimes I think the ideological shift may have drifted too far over the years. This forum is a good example of this. People are overly obsessed, it sometimes seems, with the nuances and nit-picky details of control, details that in real life usually take care of themselves without a lot of talk. But perhaps what I'm observing is just the nature of a talk forum: to disect anything in its path.

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RE: How to end Topping from the Bottom - 4/8/2010 8:31:52 PM

LadyAngelika

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

Inform the top/dom that in order for you to top from the bottom...they have to...DRUMROLL PLEASE...they have to be bottoming from the top.

FR

Logical. The problem is... DRUMROLL PLEASE... for the tops who don't realise that it is their fault that there is a topping from the bottom problem, logic wouldn't be one of their strong suits.

- LA

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RE: How to end Topping from the Bottom - 4/8/2010 8:45:20 PM

dreamerdreaming

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*crawling across the floor*

Please may I have a bowl of Fruit Loops? And can this guy serve it to me, pretty please?

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RE: How to end Topping from the Bottom - 4/8/2010 9:15:50 PM

ResidentSadist

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

Inform the top/dom that in order for you to top from the bottom...they have to...DRUMROLL PLEASE...they have to be bottoming from the top.

So the shovel, buried up the the neck routine where you make them beg to suck cock and gargle sperm in order to get food while they shit themselves in that deep hole for a week isn't the politically correct way to instill humble submission anymore?

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