The Shape of Things to Come

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caitlyn -> The Shape of Things to Come (4/3/2006 2:02:26 PM)
Not long ago, I decided to start casually talking with my girlfriends about this lifestyle … you know, not coming right out of the closet to them, but just casually and subtly mentioning it. I was stunned, because most of my friends, girls I would have never imagined … have many of the same feelings that I do. This got me thinking about the growth of the D/s lifestyle and perhaps what has been fueling all this. Oh, I know there is the internet, and people in Hollywood wearing fetish gear … but quite frankly, I think the influence these things have on people is greatly overblown … usually by people wanting to censor something. So, what then is left? What is driving the shape of things to come? When you’re my age, the dating world is just a meat market. I don’t know if it’s always been that way, as I wasn’t around “back then”, but my one older confidant assures me that there was a kinder, gentler time when you could somewhat trust the people you dated. She tells me you could tell a player when you saw one. But you know … I really don’t care if it’s just a meat market … as long as you know what it is, you can probably deal with it. It’s the subtle slime that some men (not cracking on men, that’s just who I’m dating), think they have to use to get into your pants … you know, it’s bad enough getting slimed, it’s bad enough having someone do it to get into you pants, but the worst thing of all is how it spoils future relationships. I’m getting to the point where I just assume up front that all men are lying, conniving, pig, lowlife, slime of the fucking gutter … because at least it saves me the time of getting to that inevitable conclusion. I don’t want those feelings. I like men, and like to be the kind of person that treats each person as an individual, and gives everyone a level chance. So … how does one fight these feelings? I can’t tell a player from a good guy … and to be quite honest, for whatever reason, I don’t even know if good guys exist anymore. Then, the clear connection is made. A dominant is just better! A dominant is just better, because at least you know exactly what you are getting. He isn’t going to lie to you … he doesn’t have to … he is out to use you. He doesn’t need to mentally hurt you … if he wants to see you squirm, he knows how to do it … and you know he knows. When he toys with your emotions, it’s ok, because you never really expected anything else from him in the first place. The bizarre truth, is that in a D/s relationship, you don’t have to worry about all these issues of pecking order … you don’t have to worry about all those naughty things that you want to do, but are just too embarrassed to discuss. If you are like me (and I would bet a lot are), if you have to talk about them … you could just never do them, because even talking about them makes you so self-conscious, that the sensuality of it is completely ruined. I know when I’m on a date, if the guys asks me if he can touch me there … the answer will always be no, because consent destroys the sensuality. A dominant will know, that if he gets a second date, that means the answer is already yes … so he doesn’t even have to ask. A dominant is just better, because you don’t have to worry about a guy that is just going to play you … telling you all these wonderful things … tempting you with a wedding dress, and a happy life with children, a dog and a picket fence. A dominant offers none of these illusions … it’s about the needs of the sadist and masochist, or the dominant and submissive. A dominant is better, because you let him know what you won’t do … and have a reasonable expectation that he will “force” you to do everything else. I think D/s is growing as an alternative for girls of my generation, because it represents “the evil that you know” (not to infer that any of this is evil) … you know what you are getting, and know where it will take you. Contrast that to the meat market, where the story seems to always change, the moment you sleep with someone. These things were on my mind. [:D]

Padriag -> RE: The Shape of Things to Come (4/3/2006 2:57:32 PM)
You know Caitlyn, I think you just may be on to something. I'm sitting here mulling over your post and its implications and its quite a bit of food for thought. I was supposed to be in Virginia right now but a bank delay left me sitting here reading your post. I think you're right about a number of things, or at least much of what you say matches what I've seen from my own perspective. There's a lot fear going around out there. Just the other day I was reading a blog which included a rant against, of all things... nice guys. Seriously, it derided and attacked nice guys as being somehow a bad thing. But what I kept seeing reading that blog were women who were so jaded, so cynical, so suspicious of "nice guys" and whether any of them actually were or were just slimy worms pretending that they felt the only solution was to throw the baby out with the bath water... to just dis nice guys all together. Which leaves them with what... mediocre guys... bad guys... what? I'm not sure they thought that far ahead. But I both understand and sympathize with the problem... its not easy to seperate the good from the bad. Its worse online, but even face to face, there are a lot of good liars out there. I think we've become of society of habitual liars, people so accustomed to wearing masks its become both reflexive and very convincing. Just as you fear there are no "nice guys" left, from my side of it there's the problem of trying to find any "nice girls", and some days it seems pretty daunting. I think there are a lot of things contributing to this phenomenon you describe. I think part of it is a general fear of sex. There was a very good essay I read years ago on the fear of sex in western culture. It talked about the fact that in western culture sex is generally viewed as being dirty, bad, something to be ashamed of. Its a very negative and unhealthy attitude and sooner or later something had to give... maybe what we are seeing now is a result of that. Like you said, a lot of people (not just women) are afraid to do anything "naughty" because they feel guilty about it, ashamed of it, etc.... small wonder humiliation play is so common place. I've noticed a lot of submissives can't really let go an enjoy their role until they first feel humiliated... its like they need to feel shamed in order to escape feeling ashamed if that makes any sense. But I wonder Caitlyn where this will lead us next. What happens when the dominant happens to be a "nice guy." From what I've seen he tends to be met with just as much suspicion and sometimes outright hostility or even fear (perhaps hostility born of fear... oh no... not a nice guy... that could lead to actually falling for this dom... and that would mean.. oh horrors... emotional vulnerability). What happens when the dom offers that wedding dress, happy life with kids, the dog and the picket fence along with the whips, chains and kinky sex? My observation a lot of confusion ensues as the would be submissive tries to sort out this apparent paradox, and often ends up bolting for the nearest exit once she realizes he's serious (but is he really serious or is it all really some elaborate slimy trick? And its that doubt, that fear that I think causes so many to suddenly end relationships with "nice doms"). I think your right, I think many do see the D/s or M/s dynamic as a kind of solution. As offering a kind of clarity to the relationship, defined roles, defined expectations and boundaries that used to exist in traditional relationships (those good ole days you referred too when boys were expected to act a certain way and girls were expected to act a certain way and husbands and wives had their roles and all that pretty much let people know what was expected of them. Which while confining was also sort of comforting in a way... it created order, it created structure and I think in a way society is missing that and trying to find it again, perhaps in new forms. But that's the nature of things... social evolution, reinventing itself in new forms, hopefully better forms). The thing is I think the "solution" some are coming up with is incomplete, it closes off certain possibilities, exludes certain options and I think some of it leads in unhealthy directions. I wonder about that, seems we both have. Thanks for sharing, I haven't had much time for these forums lately and your post was the most interesting thing I've seen in awhile.

NeedToUseYou -> RE: The Shape of Things to Come (4/3/2006 3:15:30 PM)
Well, I see a couple of things. First, if I'm reading your post right, it sounds like you really just want a good guy, but just don't believe they exist so say screw it and go for a Dom(which may or may not be a good guy, the view expressed seems to indicate a lesser view though). My view is if you want a good guy then that's what you should persue, I know alot of them, married focus of their lives is wife and kids. So, it's not a unattainable goal. Granted in college it's more a fuckfest than anything else, but long term people settle down a bit. One observation I saw in your post was the statement if someone asks to touch you you'll always say "no", this perspective is probably a big problem for attracting a good respectful man(generally translates to non-pig). As I read that to mean you want a guy to be aggressive sexually, a apparent paradox. Just because a guy is initially respectful doesn't mean he can't be very dominant once he has access to the goods. A man that just takes it, well, it may be a turn on for you, but then again "he just will take it". Especially if he is twentyish. We all mellow with age. Just a opinion, take the good, disgard the bad. Thanks

LuckyAlbatross -> RE: The Shape of Things to Come (4/3/2006 3:27:22 PM)
Interesting theories...but they don't pan out. Doms men are just like vanilla meni n terms of character and personality. I think you see more women talking about it because it's more talked about. I think if you asked those women if they REALLY wanted a relationship in which they had to obey on a day to day level, they wouldn't be as quick to jump in. Plus, we know you've got security, commitment and judgement issues, being in Ds doesn't change that.

Shayna -> RE: The Shape of Things to Come (4/3/2006 3:29:05 PM)
Nice to read your post Caitlyn :) First I'd like to say that some men have similar experiences with meeting and establishing relationships with women. Men aren't the only players out there. Both genders can and do play games and scam people. It has more to do with being mentally healthy and having mature social skills than being male or female. As far as young adults being more open about D/s relationships, I think that's reflective of the changes in our culture. Kids are growing up with unprecedented access to sexual material (porn, etc.) then ever before. They know more about ways to express their sexuality than those in previous generations. I don't know about it being "better" with a Dom than a vanilla guy though. And I think it's dangerous to make assumptions that some man that calls himself a Dom is more mature, more experienced, more anything than the next guy. Just as much dysfunctional stuff happens in D/s as vanilla relationships. Dating, at any age and in any community, is risky. Both emotionally and physically. We take the risk because many of us want intimacy and all that good stuff in our lives. How people date depends on what they want out of it. It's most important to be honest with yourself and your partner about what you want. Looking to get laid and nothing else? Great - become very knowledgeable about safer sex practices and develop good communication skills because to stay safe you both need to discuss this. Does it make it less sexy? Depends on how you do it...talking about safer sex could be very erotic! Want a longterm boyfriend type thing? I truly believe that the best way to go about this is to TAKE TIME and be patient. No, that's not the fun, dramatic answer many people want, but I believe that it gives the couple the best odds in finding out if they really should get more involved. I understand feeling discouraged and being cynical. I felt that way in my early 20's as well, so I don't think things have changed much. I think it's a good thing to have some healthy scepticism. Most guys you're meeting are strangers and you should be self-protective when getting to know someone under those circumstances. The young adults I work with make all sorts of assumptions about people they meet at parties...most of the time nothing awful happens, but sometimes it does. Hone your instincts - if you feel something is wacked, move on.

KnightofMists -> RE: The Shape of Things to Come (4/3/2006 3:41:50 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Padriag But I wonder Caitlyn where this will lead us next. What happens when the dominant happens to be a "nice guy." Well speaking from my experience with alandra after building a relationships since the summer of 1987. You live an incredible happy life that keeps growing and growing. Interestly enough, both alandra and I were raised not to fear or be embarassed about it. I still remember the day when I had to drive around my sister and mother as my sister looked for the wedding dress. The topic that day... their sex lives!! what they like doing what they don't do... OH god... somethings I wish I could forget lol. Oh yeah.... this all assumes that I am a Nice Guy. alandra seems to think so... of course maybe she is just delusional.

Level -> RE: The Shape of Things to Come (4/3/2006 3:56:31 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: caitlyn But you know … I really don’t care if it’s just a meat market … as long as you know what it is, you can probably deal with it. It’s the subtle slime that some men (not cracking on men, that’s just who I’m dating), think they have to use to get into your pants … you know, it’s bad enough getting slimed, it’s bad enough having someone do it to get into you pants, but the worst thing of all is how it spoils future relationships. I’m getting to the point where I just assume up front that all men are lying, conniving, pig, lowlife, slime of the fucking gutter … because at least it saves me the time of getting to that inevitable conclusion. I don’t want those feelings. I like men, and like to be the kind of person that treats each person as an individual, and gives everyone a level chance. So … how does one fight these feelings? I can’t tell a player from a good guy … and to be quite honest, for whatever reason, I don’t even know if good guys exist anymore. They certainly do exist, but as your profile states, you seem to enjoy bars and clubs and raves.....not bad things, but maybe not the best place to find a "good guy"....just a bunch of buzzed up horndogs. Then, the clear connection is made. A dominant is just better! A dominant is just better, because at least you know exactly what you are getting. He isn’t going to lie to you … he doesn’t have to … he is out to use you. He doesn’t need to mentally hurt you … if he wants to see you squirm, he knows how to do it … and you know he knows. When he toys with your emotions, it’s ok, because you never really expected anything else from him in the first place. Dominants are as likely to lie as anyone else. The bizarre truth, is that in a D/s relationship, you don’t have to worry about all these issues of pecking order … you don’t have to worry about all those naughty things that you want to do, but are just too embarrassed to discuss. If you are like me (and I would bet a lot are), if you have to talk about them … you could just never do them, because even talking about them makes you so self-conscious, that the sensuality of it is completely ruined. I know when I’m on a date, if the guys asks me if he can touch me there … the answer will always be no, because consent destroys the sensuality. A dominant will know, that if he gets a second date, that means the answer is already yes … so he doesn’t even have to ask. I would never assume any such thing lol. Being a dominant doesn't make respect or manners disappear. A dominant is just better, because you don’t have to worry about a guy that is just going to play you … telling you all these wonderful things … tempting you with a wedding dress, and a happy life with children, a dog and a picket fence. A dominant offers none of these illusions … it’s about the needs of the sadist and masochist, or the dominant and submissive. What about the M/s and D/s marriages out there?

kiska -> RE: The Shape of Things to Come (4/3/2006 4:00:57 PM)
"A dominant is better, because you let him know what you won’t do … and have a reasonable expectation that he will “force” you to do everything else." ~ caitlyn I liked that ... I actually became serious about D/s because of the rules ... I went from not knowing how to react to men, to knowing exactly what was expected of me. I was submissive ... Therefore, I was expected to act respectful, be clear about where I was willing to go with him and let him lead the way. It was so much easier for me then ... Now, after several failed relationships, the rules don't matter. I've already 'gone' so many places that I feel pressured to keep on going, further and further. Add to that the fact that I no longer feel capable of simply trusting the Dom to take the lead and it all becomes very confusing. Sometimes I think the 'meat market' looks pretty good ...

pollux -> RE: The Shape of Things to Come (4/3/2006 4:16:45 PM)
quote: I just assume up front that all men are lying, conniving, pig, lowlife, slime of the fucking gutter Is that so? There are nice guys out there Caitlyn. You're just not attracted to them.

Ethne -> RE: The Shape of Things to Come (4/3/2006 4:26:21 PM)
Yes, there are nice guys out there. One is married, one is gay, the third one lives 1000 miles away.

thetammyjo -> RE: The Shape of Things to Come (4/3/2006 4:32:40 PM)
I don't think dominants or submissives, tops or bottoms, are really any better people than any vanilla person. People of all varieties come into kink. I fear it is a set-up for disappointment if you think that somehow we are better than others. Ideally we may have more communication but I've known and seen too many folks who say they are kinky who couldn't communicate enough to get out of a thin, wet paperbag.

Cravings -> RE: The Shape of Things to Come (4/3/2006 4:37:29 PM)
I think the point is that we want to know if we are involved in a game. You know that "no game players" rule. Well, with Dom's you know what is play and with the other guys out there, everything they do may be a game and you just are not aware of it. Yet.

Lashra -> RE: The Shape of Things to Come (4/3/2006 4:46:40 PM)
Unfortnately I think todays meat market mentality comes from the lack of parenting actually. Parents aren't teaching their children basic manners anymore (or rarely, I certainly taught mine) Boys for instance in my daughter's school pick fights with GIRLS, that was unheard of in my day. Back when I was younger boys were supposed to act like gentlemen or as close as they could get to it. Now with the media portraying females as either ho's, sluts, doormats, barbies or ultra bitches it certainly doesn't help our gender gain any respect and it makes the young males believe we are toys for their constant amusement. I am hopeful that the young ladies of this generation tire of this treatment and start standing up for themselves, to show these guys they simply will not tolerate being treated in that fashion. Any man thats too lazy to treat you like a lady isnt worth your time. Dom's are people and SOME of them do lie, abuse or otherwise mistreat their subs. Its just different personalities, some are excellent dominants who know how to treat a woman with respect. Lets hope one day we call all treat each other properly. ~Lashra

Sensualips -> RE: The Shape of Things to Come (4/3/2006 5:01:02 PM)
I echo Padriag's sentiment that this is a very interesting and provacative post. However, I kind of hear a person is settling for a Dom because at least she knows what she is in for? A Dominant automatically is honest and will not mentally hurt you? I have seen a hundred posts on this site alone that would claim the opposite. Oh, but then they are not "real" Doms. Which gets back to the problem of not being able to differentiate between good guys and bad guys. Relationships are relationships. Not to rag on Caitlyn because I love her smart ass attitude and style, but.... if a person can not maintain a successful dating relationship (even short term) I am not sure a person can maintain a successful s/D relationship either. The issues are going to be similar. I think it is maybe a combination of people being more open as things become less taboo. I don't think anyone should underestimate the power of the Internet. I remember the world prior to the world wide web.

Padriag -> RE: The Shape of Things to Come (4/3/2006 5:42:04 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sensualips I echo Padriag's sentiment that this is a very interesting and provacative post. However, I kind of hear a person is settling for a Dom because at least she knows what she is in for? A Dominant automatically is honest and will not mentally hurt you? I have seen a hundred posts on this site alone that would claim the opposite. Oh, but then they are not "real" Doms. Which gets back to the problem of not being able to differentiate between good guys and bad guys. I think a lot are missing the point of her post. Caitlyn wasn't justifying the perspective, nor even saying its logical or rational or correct. What she was doing is relating an observation that this is an growing attitude in her generation. From my own observation I agree with her that it is. You're right, doms lie (or at least individuals claiming to be doms lie). And yes that does come back to the problem of good vs bad... like I said, I think the "solution" is incomplete and ill-considered. But that doesn't change the fact that it exists. I also think it helps explain why a lot of submissives, particularly younger ones, tend to bail out of D/s relationships when they reach a certain point and why some doms who by all accounts should be a real "catch" have a tough time (I'd be willing to bet many are "nice guys" offering a loving relationship instead of just wanting to "use" the girl, which removes the emotional detachment and safety for her). I'd say Caitlyn is well aware of those hundred(s) of other posts about doms doing hurtful things, D/s relationships not working out, the rules not being clear, expectations not being communicated, etc. I also don't think she was looking for encouragement or virtual hugs or coddling or platitudes. She was sharing a perspective she observed, and if we listen, we might learn something useful. Because whether its right or wrong, I think she's right in that a lot of younger submissives are turning to this lifestyle for exactly the reasons she describes... and that's going to affect a lot of things and a lot of us.

Sensualips -> RE: The Shape of Things to Come (4/3/2006 5:51:34 PM)
I didn't think Caitlyn was looking for coddling at all. I thought she was sharing an interesting theory on why seemingly more younger women are turning to a s/D dynamic. Clearly she is more in touch with the younger generation than me. I am listening, just disagreeing. Certainly is likley true for some women, but I believe there would be a number of factors contributing to an increase in interest in wiitwd. Of course it could be her sample size is tainted and she instinctively makes friends with people that share similar mindsets, even if they do not always discuss it openly.

cloudboy -> RE: The Shape of Things to Come (4/3/2006 5:52:49 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: pollux quote: I just assume up front that all men are lying, conniving, pig, lowlife, slime of the fucking gutter Is that so? There are nice guys out there Caitlyn. You're just not attracted to them. I find myself echoing your sentiments as well. I think Caitlyn may be caught between a rock and hard place. She wants older, more well heeled men, but those are the ones who will see her as a young college girl who is no more than "fair game," "fresh meat," and "fun times." The younger more awkward guys closer to her age don't have any money and are also less wise "between the sheets" --- which rules them out despite the fact that they'd probably worship her. So, she has good times, better sex and a bad relationship on one hand (older guys), and on the other she has a good relationship, poor times, and bad sex (younger guys.) As Caitlyn gets older, I imagine both she and the men she dates will find some sort of compatible equilibrium. The good news is some of us figure this all out at the ripe age of forty (40) or so.

la90066 -> RE: The Shape of Things to Come (4/3/2006 5:53:31 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Level quote: ORIGINAL: caitlyn But you know … I really don’t care if it’s just a meat market … as long as you know what it is, you can probably deal with it. It’s the subtle slime that some men (not cracking on men, that’s just who I’m dating), think they have to use to get into your pants … you know, it’s bad enough getting slimed, it’s bad enough having someone do it to get into you pants, but the worst thing of all is how it spoils future relationships. I’m getting to the point where I just assume up front that all men are lying, conniving, pig, lowlife, slime of the fucking gutter … because at least it saves me the time of getting to that inevitable conclusion. I don’t want those feelings. I like men, and like to be the kind of person that treats each person as an individual, and gives everyone a level chance. So … how does one fight these feelings? I can’t tell a player from a good guy … and to be quite honest, for whatever reason, I don’t even know if good guys exist anymore. They certainly do exist, but as your profile states, you seem to enjoy bars and clubs and raves.....not bad things, but maybe not the best place to find a "good guy"....just a bunch of buzzed up horndogs. Then, the clear connection is made. A dominant is just better! A dominant is just better, because at least you know exactly what you are getting. He isn’t going to lie to you … he doesn’t have to … he is out to use you. He doesn’t need to mentally hurt you … if he wants to see you squirm, he knows how to do it … and you know he knows. When he toys with your emotions, it’s ok, because you never really expected anything else from him in the first place. Dominants are as likely to lie as anyone else. The bizarre truth, is that in a D/s relationship, you don’t have to worry about all these issues of pecking order … you don’t have to worry about all those naughty things that you want to do, but are just too embarrassed to discuss. If you are like me (and I would bet a lot are), if you have to talk about them … you could just never do them, because even talking about them makes you so self-conscious, that the sensuality of it is completely ruined. I know when I’m on a date, if the guys asks me if he can touch me there … the answer will always be no, because consent destroys the sensuality. A dominant will know, that if he gets a second date, that means the answer is already yes … so he doesn’t even have to ask. I would never assume any such thing lol. Being a dominant doesn't make respect or manners disappear. A dominant is just better, because you don’t have to worry about a guy that is just going to play you … telling you all these wonderful things … tempting you with a wedding dress, and a happy life with children, a dog and a picket fence. A dominant offers none of these illusions … it’s about the needs of the sadist and masochist, or the dominant and submissive. What about the M/s and D/s marriages out there? You beat me to this... Well said. Also, as to the assumption that Doms don't lie? I'd submit to you that many "Doms" on kink sites are not "Doms" at all -- but pretend to be for the sole purpose of... DRUM ROLL... getting into your pants. Pretty easy to check a box on a kink site that designates "Dom", pick up some dark sunglasses and leather pants and POOF... Insta-Dom. Think about it...

Level -> RE: The Shape of Things to Come (4/3/2006 6:23:05 PM)
Thanks, la........if Caitlyn was serious, then what I said stands, but now that Padriag has cast doubt on whether or not she was, or was just looking at her generation, I'll look forward to her clearing that up. Level

Arpig -> RE: The Shape of Things to Come (4/3/2006 6:46:01 PM)
There is a good guy out there, he is me.....um wait, sorry, I'm a dirty old man, not a nice guy...sorry. Actually I think there may be something to what you surmise here caitlyn, whether it is about yourself specifically, or is just general musing about your generation, there could well be an appeal to the d/s lifestyle due to its certainty, like you said, the games played are of a different sort, and are expected. As far as the meat market...it was that way when I was your age, and it will be that way when your grandkids are your age as well.

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