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RE: The Shape of Things to Come - 4/3/2006 6:46:53 PM

LuckyAlbatross

Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lashra
Now with the media portraying females as either ho's, sluts, doormats, barbies or ultra bitches it certainly doesn't help our gender gain any respect and it makes the young males believe we are toys for their constant amusement.

"The media" is not just some blob we can pin blame onto- women are part of the media, women consent to be portrayed like that when they are.

I agree, obviously role models and parenting come into play. But we can't just put a blob blame scapegoat and call it a day. And I don't like the "back in my day..." illusions people love to hold onto.

Last year I went to a dinner for work in which my boyfriend and I were the youngest in attendance by about 7 years. We happened to get placed at the table with several local and regional managers and their wives/girlfriends. After a cheeky discussion about their comrades talking to hookers on a business trip, I stood to go to the bathroom. My boyfriend (21) stood, got my chair, and then stood again when I returned, and did the same when the other ladies got up. The other men who were all 30-50 were too busy downing their beers.

Let's keep a reasonable perspective and not just say "those darn kids got no respect."

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to Lashra)

Post #: 21

RE: The Shape of Things to Come - 4/3/2006 6:47:44 PM

IronBear

Posts: 9008
Joined: 6/19/2005
From: Beenleigh, Qld, Australia
Status: offline

I read and reread both Caitlyn and Padraig’s posts. I don’t see any conflict in them. I saw with Caitlyn, an astute, aware young woman musing about her thoughts following an interesting conversation with a couple of girl friends. Strangely, a great many philosophical concepts have come about because some one wrote or spoke about their musings…. With Padraig’s posts what I saw was another intelligent and astute man commenting on some ones musings as seen through older and perhaps wiser eyes…. We can all kick this about and probably come up with as many interoperations as there are people discussing it.. However each one of us is using Caitlyn’s musings and from that developing our own visions, philosophies or just thoughts.

Something I posted on another thread and forum which may be of value when discussing personalities in the lifestyle and especially on the internet…

“And verily, I say unto ye, tarry ye not onto this thing called the internet, for it contains those that are boasters of mighty deeds and possessors of magnificent parts, yet at the sunrise, ye shall see them only as wankers and falsifiers, for their deeds are as none and their parts would appear as being greatly diminished, malformed and generally disappointing.”

< Message edited by IronBear -- 4/3/2006 6:48:15 PM >

_____________________________

Iron Bear

Master of Bruin Cottage

http://www.bruincottage.org

Your attitude, words & actions are yours. Take responsibility for them and the consequences they incur.

D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F.

(in reply to Level)

Post #: 22

RE: The Shape of Things to Come - 4/3/2006 6:52:53 PM

caitlyn

Posts: 3473
Joined: 12/22/2004
Status: offline

Padriag didn't cast doubt on whether I was serious. What he said was:

"I think a lot are missing the point of her post. Caitlyn wasn't justifying the perspective, nor even saying its logical or rational or correct. What she was doing is relating an observation that this is an growing attitude in her generation. From my own observation I agree with her that it is."

He is exactly correct. My 100% serious post was strictly an observation about something I have been discusing with some of my friends.

Cravings, in her very short post, caught the point pretty well. It's not a question of if you are a nice guy, or a bit of a jerk, or even a player looking for a hot night in bed ... just have the courtesy to be honest about who and what you are ... and then actually be what you say you are!!!

(in reply to Level)

Post #: 23

RE: The Shape of Things to Come - 4/3/2006 7:06:06 PM

Level

Posts: 25145
Joined: 3/3/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn

Padriag didn't cast doubt on whether I was serious. What he said was:

"I think a lot are missing the point of her post. Caitlyn wasn't justifying the perspective, nor even saying its logical or rational or correct. What she was doing is relating an observation that this is an growing attitude in her generation. From my own observation I agree with her that it is."

He is exactly correct. My 100% serious post was strictly an observation about something I have been discusing with some of my friends.

Cravings, in her very short post, caught the point pretty well. It's not a question of if you are a nice guy, or a bit of a jerk, or even a player looking for a hot night in bed ... just have the courtesy to be honest about who and what you are ... and then actually be what you say you are!!!

You're correct, Padriag did not say you were not being serious, my error. But I can't, or couldn't without clarification, distinguish what you think and what you and your friends were just "discussing". The post very much sounds like "this is what my friends think" and "I share much of their feelings", which, in my mind, is indeed "justification" at least to a degree.

I'm not dumping on you or anything, I enjoy your posts and have since the "feminism" one lol.....

Level

(in reply to caitlyn)

Post #: 24

RE: The Shape of Things to Come - 4/3/2006 7:11:29 PM

Chaingang

Posts: 1727
Joined: 10/24/2005
Status: offline

I think maybe one just has to refine their criteria and then make a point of learning how to find the people that fit that criteria. I also think that too often people focus entirely on what they want out of something (i.e. their list of "demands") and place very little emphasis on what they have to offer. You get out what you put in. If you are waiting for lightening to strike, you may wait forever. You have to create your own opportunities.

If you want to find a good Dom, become an excellent submissive first.

I could probably write a "DIY" essay here, but those are the highlights.

Just as an aside:
You aren't going to generally find a deep man amongst a bunch of materialistic college frathouse assholes. Maybe that's not true across the board, but I think what I am trying to say is that if a man spends a lot of time in vain pursuits and rubbing at his BMW with a shammy - well, you now know his priorities in life: himself, and coming across well on a very superficial level.

_____________________________

"Everything flows, nothing stands still." (Πάντα ῥεῖ καὶ οὐδὲν μένει) - Heraclitus

(in reply to Arpig)

Post #: 25

RE: The Shape of Things to Come - 4/3/2006 7:20:06 PM

IronBear

Posts: 9008
Joined: 6/19/2005
From: Beenleigh, Qld, Australia
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Chaingang

Just as an aside:
You aren't going to generally find a deep man amongst a bunch of materialistic college frathouse assholes. Maybe that's not true across the board, but I think what I am trying to say is that if a man spends a lot of time in vain pursuits and rubbing at his BMW with a shammy - well, you now know his priorities in life: himself, and coming across well on a very superficial level.

Now that was a very profound statement which from an Australian view point and relating to the Universities here probably hold true too....

_____________________________

Iron Bear

Master of Bruin Cottage

http://www.bruincottage.org

Your attitude, words & actions are yours. Take responsibility for them and the consequences they incur.

D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F.

(in reply to Chaingang)

Post #: 26

RE: The Shape of Things to Come - 4/3/2006 7:22:17 PM

Level

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Joined: 3/3/2006
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Well said, Chaingang.

(in reply to IronBear)

Post #: 27

RE: The Shape of Things to Come - 4/3/2006 7:54:47 PM

caitlyn

Posts: 3473
Joined: 12/22/2004
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Look now ... no picking on BMW drivers.

(in reply to Chaingang)

Post #: 28

RE: The Shape of Things to Come - 4/3/2006 8:20:32 PM

Lashra

Posts: 4900
Joined: 2/9/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lashra
Now with the media portraying females as either ho's, sluts, doormats, barbies or ultra bitches it certainly doesn't help our gender gain any respect and it makes the young males believe we are toys for their constant amusement.

"The media" is not just some blob we can pin blame onto- women are part of the media, women consent to be portrayed like that when they are.

I agree, obviously role models and parenting come into play. But we can't just put a blob blame scapegoat and call it a day. And I don't like the "back in my day..." illusions people love to hold onto.

Last year I went to a dinner for work in which my boyfriend and I were the youngest in attendance by about 7 years. We happened to get placed at the table with several local and regional managers and their wives/girlfriends. After a cheeky discussion about their comrades talking to hookers on a business trip, I stood to go to the bathroom. My boyfriend (21) stood, got my chair, and then stood again when I returned, and did the same when the other ladies got up. The other men who were all 30-50 were too busy downing their beers.

Let's keep a reasonable perspective and not just say "those darn kids got no respect."

I don't consent to the way women are portrayed in the media. So If I had my way about there would be a lot less tits-n-ass and more brains and plot. Alot of the actresses today don't do it to ply their craft but for the money and fame that it brings them. They could care less how it is effecting the average female. But alas most production companies are owned by men, not all but most and therefore T&A is what they produce because it is what the majority of the male public wants to see.

As far as the younger generation having no respect, why would they? Most were never taught it at home and therein lies the bulk of the problem. So no I'm not entirely blaming the kids, the parents have alot to answer for. But one would like to hope that a few of the kids are enlightened enough to realise that to get respect you have to earn it, not demand it.

As far as your dining experience, yes I've seen the rude ill mannered type your speaking of and they come in ALL ages, all races and all genders. I had the misfortune of being seated next to a table of 20-25 year old gents who's very loud conversation consisted of "fuck dat" "fuck dis" "fucking wha?" every sentance had to begin with the word fuck or it just didnt happen. Everyone in the restaurant heard them including the young children sitting 2 tables away from them. I finally called the manager over and told him they were annoying to us and other patrons and he said something too them. After he walked away the conversation continued with "do you fucking believe dat? what the fuck is wrong whiff people, can't even talk in a fucking restaurant anymore."

~Lashra

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)

Post #: 29

RE: The Shape of Things to Come - 4/3/2006 8:31:16 PM

IronBear

Posts: 9008
Joined: 6/19/2005
From: Beenleigh, Qld, Australia
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn

Look now ... no picking on BMW drivers.

Make you a deal, BMW drivers support Volvo drivers. Volvo drivers support BMW drivers.....

_____________________________

Iron Bear

Master of Bruin Cottage

http://www.bruincottage.org

Your attitude, words & actions are yours. Take responsibility for them and the consequences they incur.

D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F.

(in reply to caitlyn)

Post #: 30

RE: The Shape of Things to Come - 4/3/2006 10:00:18 PM

subtlesubie

Posts: 138
Joined: 1/5/2006
Status: offline

THe mainstreaming of porn in the 90s brought fetish along with it. 90% of fetish is based somehow on power exchange. Young women for whatever reason overwhelmingly identify as a submissive, ergo LOTS of women enjoy some degree of domination. At least that has been my experience with the vanillas.

(in reply to IronBear)

Post #: 31

RE: The Shape of Things to Come - 4/4/2006 12:05:51 AM

amayos

Posts: 1553
Joined: 6/2/2004
From: New England
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn
...just have the courtesy to be honest about who and what you are ... and then actually be what you say you are!!!

It's a wonderful idea, I agree...but it often doesn't work with human hearts—especially of the young.

There is no market without demand, and the horrible truth of it all is that humans seduce and like to be seduced; their eyes more often lean to the candy coated things. And one must ask, why, if honesty and directness would be so much better, have we not naturally embraced it over so many thousands of years? Perhaps it's not so appreciated after all.

I have found sharing my originality with those who truly appreciate it works best. That's why I'm here. Because I know you all appreciate it. So much.

"Wise men should be like coffers with double bottoms; which when others look into, being opened, they see not all that they hold."

—Sir Walter Raleigh

(in reply to caitlyn)

Post #: 32

RE: The Shape of Things to Come - 4/4/2006 3:03:46 AM

Level

Posts: 25145
Joined: 3/3/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: amayos

quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn
...just have the courtesy to be honest about who and what you are ... and then actually be what you say you are!!!

It's a wonderful idea, I agree...but it often doesn't work with human hearts—especially of the young.

There is no market without demand, and the horrible truth of it all is that humans seduce and like to be seduced; their eyes more often lean to the candy coated things. And one must ask, why, if honesty and directness would be so much better, have we not naturally embraced it over so many thousands of years? Perhaps it's not so appreciated after all.

I have found sharing my originality with those who truly appreciate it works best. That's why I'm here. Because I know you all appreciate it. So much.

"Wise men should be like coffers with double bottoms; which when others look into, being opened, they see not all that they hold."

—Sir Walter Raleigh

Some truth there, amayos. Ever met a person that talks about how they appreciate someone because they "tell it like it is"?.............more likely they "appreciate" it as long as they telling isn't aimed in their direction. Few people can stand to be disagreed with.

(in reply to amayos)

Post #: 33

RE: The Shape of Things to Come - 4/4/2006 6:07:52 AM

pollux

Posts: 657
Joined: 7/26/2005
Status: offline

You said:

quote:

Cravings, in her very short post, caught the point pretty well...just have the courtesy to be honest about who and what you are ... and then actually be what you say you are!!!

And here is what Cravings said:

quote:

Well, with Dom's you know what is play and with the other guys out there, everything they do may be a game and you just are not aware of it. Yet.

So yes, Caitlyn, we know what you're saying, but people have pointed out to you that being a Dom is no guarantee that the guy isn't a liar or a game-player or anything else. In fact, on the boards this week the theme seems to be that being "in the lifestyle" is no guarantee of anything.

What I think you're missing about some of the replies you're receiving is that there are many men out there -- Doms and vanillas -- who do exactly what you claim to want (have the courtesy to be honest about who and what they are), but they are obviously off your radar. The reason it appears that all men are cheating, dishonest game-players is...for some reason you find that quality magnetic and seek it out, even if you don't recognize it at first. A lot of people do this. Some of them learn to recognize it and make better choices. Some don't.

If you really want to work on this, go back and re-read what you wrote originally:

quote:

It’s the subtle slime that some men (not cracking on men, that’s just who I’m dating [if they're slimy, why are you dating them? --P]), think they have to use to get into your pants … you know, it’s bad enough getting slimed, it’s bad enough having someone do it to get into you pants, but the worst thing of all is how it spoils future relationships. I’m getting to the point where I just assume up front that all men are lying, conniving, pig, lowlife, slime of the fucking gutter … because at least it saves me the time of getting to that inevitable conclusion

I don’t want those feelings. I like men, and like to be the kind of person that treats each person as an individual, and gives everyone a level chance. So … how does one fight these feelings? I can’t tell a player from a good guy … and to be quite honest, for whatever reason, I don’t even know if good guys exist anymore.

Yes you can. You can tell with 100% unerring accuracy who the player is and who the good guy is. You just never choose the good guy (or you break it off once you figure out he's good). So to answer your question, the way you "fight these feelings" is like this:

You understand what the question is and what the question isn't. The question is not "where are all the good guys?" (because they're all over the place), nor is is it, "why don't we fed-up women just start dating Doms because at least with them you know what you're getting?" (because that's blatantly untrue). The question is, why do you and your friends who feel like this continue to make bad choices? The problem is not with men or with vanilla or D/s. The problem is with you.

Pollux
(who is very annoyed with offensive and tired generalizations today for some reason, and who once had this same lecture given to him, in reverse, by a very wise woman)

P.S. I've been in and out of singlehood for 22 years and I can tell you that the dating scene is no different now than it ever was. Men have always been lying pigs, and women have always been gold-digging bitches.

(in reply to caitlyn)

Post #: 34

RE: The Shape of Things to Come - 4/4/2006 6:51:37 AM

caitlyn

Posts: 3473
Joined: 12/22/2004
Status: offline

We seem to have a communication issue in this thread pollux - in that statements that were meant to be self-discriminatory and self-effacing, seem to have come across as generalizations, and potentually hurtful ones at that.

I do apologize in this instance, for my sub-standard communication skills.

(in reply to pollux)

Post #: 35

RE: The Shape of Things to Come - 4/4/2006 7:04:16 AM

ExistentialSteel

Posts: 676
Joined: 1/18/2005
Status: offline

Caitlyn, you are a bright and talented writer and I picked up on your use of the self-effacing exaggerations, but there is still an element of truth to those being your underlying feelings. I think Needtouseyou pointed out the obvious succinctly.

_____________________________

For those who are like Roman Candles leaving bright trails in the night sky while the crowd watches until the dark blue center light bursts into magnificent colors and the crowd goes, ahhhhhhhhhh.

(in reply to caitlyn)

Post #: 36

RE: The Shape of Things to Come - 4/4/2006 7:33:31 AM

meatcleaver

Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline

It just seems to me caitlyn you want a BAD guy that is a GOOD guy! Rather like many men want a VIRGIN that is a SLUT! It's what many of us fantasize about but it isn't reality.

The fact is the good guy you want you might find boring and the bad guy, well...frightening but the truth is that most people are a mixture.

(in reply to ExistentialSteel)

Post #: 37

RE: The Shape of Things to Come - 4/4/2006 7:38:35 AM

E110

Posts: 16
Joined: 1/28/2005
Status: offline

cait... what is sweet is the honesty and openness to ask and express yourself..i think like all things... a person openning up to their deeper sexual persuasions takes time and trust.. on both parts..once done learning that one may be Dom the other sub.is only a beginnin and not an assurance of a good match.... but still to find out if each is a fantastic compliment for the other.. i think something far too complicated to compartmentalize like any relationship.. ie.. does the sub have limits.. does she want them pushed..my sub at one time thought a clothespin on her clit.. was pushint it... a boundary/limit...now she pins a black paper holder to her clit.. that she refuses to remove til i have cum in her ass...she aches for her limits to be pushed becasue her trust in me is so high.. the point.. its what you want in life. just never settle.. and you will never be disappointed..

(in reply to caitlyn)

Post #: 38

RE: The Shape of Things to Come - 4/4/2006 8:00:05 AM

namasteguardian

Posts: 20
Joined: 6/29/2005
Status: offline

caitlyn, if I am reading your musings correctly, what you are saying is that you like the alternate lifestyle because it has a defined set of rules, whereas vanilla dating has a much wider, looser (some would say NO) rule set. You find comfort in the structure implicit in the alt lifestyle because you know what to expect and what is going to happen. Am I paraphrasing your thoughts correctly?

My concern for you depends on why you made that choice. If the stricter rule set is what you want out of life, then more power to you. But if you are using the lifestyle to avoid having to take responsibility for your own happiness and wellbeing, I think you are heading down the wrong path. It is an epidemic in modern society, that people prefer to be told what to do and think rather than having to do it for themselves. This has led to one very screwed up world. So my caution is that you look into yourself and be honest enough to determine why you made the choice you did. If it was for the healthy reasons you will be fine. If it was for the avoidance reasons, I would be concerned about your happiness down the road.

Namaste, Sir Dominic

"Life was not meant to be easy, but it was meant to be fun!"

(in reply to meatcleaver)

Post #: 39

RE: The Shape of Things to Come - 4/4/2006 8:10:47 AM

KnightofMists

Posts: 7149
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Padriag

[I think a lot are missing the point of her post. Caitlyn wasn't justifying the perspective, nor even saying its logical or rational or correct. What she was doing is relating an observation that this is an growing attitude in her generation. From my own observation I agree with her that it is.

One of the issues that police officiers contend with on a daily occurance is the scum of society. The very inherent nature of their job puts them in contact with people that most of us never see or if we see them it is rarely. It takes a constrant reminder that what they see on a daily basis is only a small segment of society. That infact, their daily job doesn't actually allow them interact with a more balanced perspective of society. For many, they find alot other off duty activities to balance against this very negative aspect of there life.

If young person is going to the bar, raves and such, well then being in these places doesn't give a balance picture of the group. It's more a perspective of the people in that specific environment. There is alot of young people that avoid these types of environments. Frankly, there is not alot of difference of the young of today than their was in the past. The environments to some degree has changed, if you don't like the people in that environment... GET OUT of the environment. Find a environment that gives you the type of people you are looking for.

_____________________________

Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

(in reply to Padriag)

Post #: 40

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