Collarspace Discussion Forums


Home  Login  Search 

RE: The Aristocratic Tyranny Our Founding Fathers Sought to Protect Our Republic From


View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
 
All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> Dungeon of Political and Religious Discussion >> RE: The Aristocratic Tyranny Our Founding Fathers Sought to Protect Our Republic From Page: <<   < prev  1 [2] 3 4   next >   >>
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
RE: The Aristocratic Tyranny Our Founding Fathers Sough... - 4/9/2010 9:17:13 AM   
subfever


Posts: 2895
Joined: 5/22/2004
Status: offline
quote:

This is a bit like the war thread where the innocent guys were killed by the attack helicopter - its a surprise that anyone might be surprised that stuff like this goes on and its simply par for the course.


I doubt if the majority is surprised that this behavior persists, but I am fairly confident that the majority has been conditioned to accept this behavior as par for the course.

Whether within war or current economics, poor behavior is not a cause... it's an effect of the underlying system.

quote:

If millions protesting cant stop wars, then what seriously does anyone think might roll back this particular crime against humanity?


Where are these millions of protesters?

Armchair protesters ranting on the internet will not have any effect on change, unless they are organizing a real movement.

A multi-million man march on Washington might cause a stir, but again, war is an effect of a bigger problem... not a cause. While such a gargantuan effort may get them to stop this war, what will prevent them from just starting another war a few months or years from now?

quote:

Leaders everywhere are taking credit for limiting us to a recession rather than standing by and presiding over depression. Sure enough, no one would want a depression - but then no one should want what we got when we were "saved" - basically our glorious leaders propping up a poor system with our money and trying desperately to revive it and restore it just as it was before - a deeply flawed and globally dangerous model.


I'm glad you understand the basic principle that the system is deeply flawed and globally dangerous. This is the message we need to get out to the masses.

And indeed, those at the top of the food chain are temporarily propping up the collapsing system with our money.

quote:

What we needed perhaps was the shock of a depression by which, as per the last time round, the model would be remade so as to provide stability and wealth for decades through proper regulation and oversight. It was the rollback of such proper regulation and oversight, from the 80s on, that seeded this particular bed of virulent weeds.


This is where you and I differ. I believe the system has been flawed from the very beginning... not since the 80's. The flawed model, based on money as debt through loans, needs to be perpetuated by economic expansion... through the mechanism of labor for income. But we now have technological unemployment in the equation.

In 2007, the total debt of the US Government and all of its citzens was 53 trillion dollars, whereas the total money supply (M3) was 12 trillion dollars. The GDP was only 14 trillion!

There's a very good reason why the government stopped reporting the M3.

Globally, the system is strikingly similar. Of the 203 countries in 2009, only 4 do not owe others money. The collective external debt of all governments was 52 trillion dollars, and this doesn't include the massive household debt in each country.

More checks and balances aren't going to fix this problem. The system itself is flawed, and on the verge of collapse. It's time for change.

I have no doubt that the elite already has their plan ready, for when the collapse finally does occur. The people need to organize, and install a plan that's right for humanity and the ecosystem.

Time grows short.

(in reply to LadyEllen)
Profile   Post #: 21
RE: The Aristocratic Tyranny Our Founding Fathers Sough... - 4/9/2010 11:48:32 AM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline 		Goldman Sachs or any other company should not be exempt from our bankruptcy laws.
The Obama admin. is just keeping wealthy people wealthy.

< Message edited by popeye1250 -- 4/9/2010 11:49:39 AM >

_____________________________

"But Your Honor, this is not a Jury of my Peers, these people are all decent, honest, law-abiding citizens!"

(in reply to subfever)
Profile   Post #: 22
RE: The Aristocratic Tyranny Our Founding Fathers Sough... - 4/9/2010 11:53:32 AM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline 		As did previous administrations.

A continued policy, not a new one.

(in reply to popeye1250)
Profile   Post #: 23
RE: The Aristocratic Tyranny Our Founding Fathers Sough... - 4/9/2010 12:12:34 PM   
subfever


Posts: 2895
Joined: 5/22/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

As did previous administrations.

A continued policy, not a new one.


Indeed, a continued policy. There's no right vs. left in this equation.

< Message edited by subfever -- 4/9/2010 12:18:31 PM >

(in reply to Musicmystery)
Profile   Post #: 24
RE: The Aristocratic Tyranny Our Founding Fathers Sough... - 4/9/2010 12:45:49 PM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline 		In a capitalist system, those with capital will hold the real power.

Nothing is going to change that. Even moving to socialism or communism (which has never truly been done, except in name) isn't going to change the reality of the value of resources.


(in reply to subfever)
Profile   Post #: 25
RE: The Aristocratic Tyranny Our Founding Fathers Sough... - 4/9/2010 1:11:42 PM   
subfever


Posts: 2895
Joined: 5/22/2004
Status: offline
quote:

In a capitalist system, those with capital will hold the real power. Nothing is going to change that.



I can't see how anyone would disagree with this basic concept.

quote:

Even moving to socialism or communism (which has never truly been done, except in name) isn't going to change the reality of the value of resources.


I would think that this would depend upon how one defines value, and what the reality is at the time the definition is given.

For example, how would you define the value of resources, if the reality (underlying system) is not monetary-based?

(in reply to Musicmystery)
Profile   Post #: 26
RE: The Aristocratic Tyranny Our Founding Fathers Sough... - 4/9/2010 1:45:02 PM   
NeedToUseYou


Posts: 2297
Joined: 12/24/2005
From: None of your business
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: subfever

quote:

I nominate.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eKUX8qaGfWs


Good grief... I really must be getting old...


Actually that song is pretty old now :(  Early 90's I believe.

It's a good song... I love it... you have to grow an ear for Pantera, but they have good messages, buried under the screams.
Fucking Hostile: My anthem if I ever run for politics. Bill Clinton had Reo Speedwagon, (LOL, pussy), I'll have Pantera.

Almost every day
I see the same face
On broken picture tube
It fits the attitude
If you could see yourself
You put you on a shelf
Your verbal masturbate
Promise to nauseate
Today I'll play the part of non-parent
Not make a hundred rules
For you to know about yourself
Not lie and make you believe
What's evil is making love
and making friends
and meeting God you're own way
The right way

[Chorus]
To see
To bleed
Cannot be taught
In turn
You're making us
Fucking hostile

We stand alone

The truth in right and wrong
The boundaries of the law
You seem to miss the point
Arresting for a joint?
You seem to wonder why
Hundreds of people die
You're writing tickets man
My mom got jumped -- they ran!
Now I'll play a public servant
To serve and protect
By the law and the state
I'd bust the punks
That rape steal and murder
And leave you be
If you crossed me
I'd shake your hand like a man
Not a god

[Chorus]

Come meet your maker, boy
Some things you can't enjoy
Because of heaven/hell
A fucking wives' tale
They put it in your head
Then put you in your bed
He's watching say your prayers
Cause God is everywhere
Now I'll play a man learning priesthood
Who's about to take the ultimate test in life
I'd question things because I am human
And call NO ONE my father who's no closer that a stranger

I won't listen

[Chorus]

(in reply to subfever)
Profile   Post #: 27
RE: The Aristocratic Tyranny Our Founding Fathers Sough... - 4/9/2010 2:52:43 PM   
Fellow


Posts: 1486
Joined: 9/21/2009
Status: offline 		US taxpayers really did not bail out the financial industry; it was US government using taxpayer's money (nobody asked a taxpayer, they were fed some propaganda for justification). It was a smart move from the government side and it achieved the objectives. It preserved the wealth that did exist only on paper. People who own the wealth were given time to transfer it into real assets. I do not buy the argument it was the only way. Many leading economists argue it was wrong way. The problem I see (leaving the moral aspects aside)  is that by doing so, US government added a lot of debt. I do not see how the debt problem will be solved without the usual economy collapse and debt elimination.  There is no driver for a significant US economic growth. What people can do? Not much, especially  considering the weakness of US national structure and individualism as a prevailing ideology.  The Tea Party movement  tries to address the problem but they are not well organized ideologically and they are effectively shut down by the news media and by a contra-propaganda. The oncoming elections will be interesting to watch: the plutocrats will have increasing difficulties to secure their positions. The government is broken and it is unable to act in the interests of the country as a whole. Historically there have been presidents who were able to make radical changes. Theodore Roosevelt and Franklin D Roosevelt comes in mind. I doubt Obama will raise this far. Extrapolating into the future, there will be massive rioting in few years, but it will not solve much else than strengthening the police state.

(in reply to NeedToUseYou)
Profile   Post #: 28
RE: The Aristocratic Tyranny Our Founding Fathers Sough... - 4/9/2010 3:10:16 PM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline
quote:

For example, how would you define the value of resources, if the reality (underlying system) is not monetary-based?


It's hard to answer this question, as its premise doesn't have any real meaning.

Monetary systems are measurements, not resources themselves. Resources exist independently. Define their value any way you like; they still have value. That's what makes them resources.

(in reply to subfever)
Profile   Post #: 29
RE: The Aristocratic Tyranny Our Founding Fathers Sough... - 4/9/2010 3:35:59 PM   
subfever


Posts: 2895
Joined: 5/22/2004
Status: offline
quote:

It's hard to answer this question, as its premise doesn't have any real meaning.



The premise of the question does have meaning, but we've been conditioned to think within a box. I agree that it's hard to answer, being that the current reality (system) is all we've known. 

quote:

Monetary systems are measurements, not resources themselves. Resources exist independently. Define their value any way you like; they still have value. That's what makes them resources.


I'm sure no one would argue against such basic principles that monetary systems are measurements, and that resources have value.

(in reply to Musicmystery)
Profile   Post #: 30
RE: The Aristocratic Tyranny Our Founding Fathers Sough... - 4/9/2010 3:51:58 PM   
subfever


Posts: 2895
Joined: 5/22/2004
Status: offline
quote:

US taxpayers really did not bail out the financial industry; it was US government using taxpayer's money (nobody asked a taxpayer, they were fed some propaganda for justification). It was a smart move from the government side and it achieved the objectives. It preserved the wealth that did exist only on paper. People who own the wealth were given time to transfer it into real assets.


I've sometimes wondered if this is has been the true objective... cashing out before the whole system collapses.
quote:


I do not buy the argument it was the only way. Many leading economists argue it was wrong way. The problem I see (leaving the moral aspects aside) is that by doing so, US government added a lot of debt. I do not see how the debt problem will be solved without the usual economy collapse and debt elimination.


Other than a system replacement, nor do I.

quote:

 There is no driver for a significant US economic growth. What people can do?
 

Take in each others' laundry? ...    

Seriously, jobs are being outsourced and also lost via technology. I don't see a way out of this mess under the current system. 

quote:

Not much, especially considering the weakness of US national structure and individualism as a prevailing ideology. The Tea Party movement tries to address the problem but they are not well organized ideologically and they are effectively shut down by the news media and by a contra-propaganda
.

Not being organized ideologically will shoot the horse before it even leaves the gate.

quote:


The oncoming elections will be interesting to watch: the plutocrats will have increasing difficulties to secure their positions. The government is broken and it is unable to act in the interests of the country as a whole.


No argument there.

quote:

Historically there have been presidents who were able to make radical changes. Theodore Roosevelt and Franklin D Roosevelt comes in mind. I doubt Obama will raise this far. Extrapolating into the future, there will be massive rioting in few years, but it will not solve much else than strengthening the police state


Indeed. This is why I'll only advocate a peaceful movement.

(in reply to Fellow)
Profile   Post #: 31
RE: The Aristocratic Tyranny Our Founding Fathers Sough... - 4/9/2010 4:51:26 PM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		This will go on until we make lobbying of Congress illegal and limit all political contributions to individuals with a limit of $2,000 each.

Butch


_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to subfever)
Profile   Post #: 32
RE: The Aristocratic Tyranny Our Founding Fathers Sough... - 4/9/2010 10:37:38 PM   
Silence8


Posts: 833
Joined: 11/2/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

In a capitalist system, those with capital will hold the real power.

Nothing is going to change that. Even moving to socialism or communism (which has never truly been done, except in name) isn't going to change the reality of the value of resources.




1) Technological change could change everything -- it already has.

2) The present system does not allow for what I want to call the regulation of non-scarcity. What Comcast and other companies want to do with the internet is a pertinent example -- they want precisely to manufacture scarcity, to inflate profits without a corresponding increase in actual value. This is a form of symbolic violence, that creates real violence, like war.

3) The financial crisis was a symbolic crisis 'par excellence'. Estimates of the inflated values of these paper credits relative to the real productive value of the entire U.S. GDP, to my knowledge, are completely ridiculous. Obviously, obviously, obviously, there concretely exists a better way to organize the system, from simple things like back to Glass-Steagall, to more inventive proposals like making banks not a business, but a boring public governmental institution that has simple policies that are not to exclude 1000 pages in whole.

4) The real difficulty is that countries have to work together and in tandem ultimately to make the existence of distinctions like 'country' and 'state' a thing of the past; the trick is somehow to enshrine the idea that the institution's purpose is ultimately to dissolve.



< Message edited by Silence8 -- 4/9/2010 10:38:31 PM >

(in reply to Musicmystery)
Profile   Post #: 33
RE: The Aristocratic Tyranny Our Founding Fathers Sough... - 4/10/2010 7:35:06 AM   
subfever


Posts: 2895
Joined: 5/22/2004
Status: offline
quote:

1) Technological change could change everything -- it already has.


When one contemplates how we live better than kings and queens did just a couple centuries ago, it hard to disagree that technology is behind this change for the better.

quote:

2) The present system does not allow for what I want to call the regulation of non-scarcity. What Comcast and other companies want to do with the internet is a pertinent example -- they want precisely to manufacture scarcity, to inflate profits without a corresponding increase in actual value. This is a form of symbolic violence, that creates real violence, like war.


Just another example of the parasites seeking new ways to feed off their hosts.

quote:

3) The financial crisis was a symbolic crisis 'par excellence'. Estimates of the inflated values of these paper credits relative to the real productive value of the entire U.S. GDP, to my knowledge, are completely ridiculous. Obviously, obviously, obviously, there concretely exists a better way to organize the system, from simple things like back to Glass-Steagall, to more inventive proposals like making banks not a business, but a boring public governmental institution that has simple policies that are not to exclude 1000 pages in whole.


Sometimes it makes more sense to dismantle and rebuild.

quote:

4) The real difficulty is that countries have to work together and in tandem ultimately to make the existence of distinctions like 'country' and 'state' a thing of the past; the trick is somehow to enshrine the idea that the institution's purpose is ultimately to dissolve.


Perhaps if we raise the collective consciousness of the people and get our own house in order, the world will follow.

(in reply to Silence8)
Profile   Post #: 34
RE: The Aristocratic Tyranny Our Founding Fathers Sough... - 4/10/2010 1:00:57 PM   
thompsonx


Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

Goldman Sachs or any other company should not be exempt from our bankruptcy laws.
The Obama admin. is just keeping wealthy people wealthy.


Unlike the previous administration?

< Message edited by thompsonx -- 4/10/2010 1:01:38 PM >

(in reply to popeye1250)
Profile   Post #: 35
RE: The Aristocratic Tyranny Our Founding Fathers Sough... - 4/10/2010 3:26:47 PM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline
quote:

I'm sure no one would argue against such basic principles that monetary systems are measurements, and that resources have value.


You're the one who raised the question.

(in reply to subfever)
Profile   Post #: 36
RE: The Aristocratic Tyranny Our Founding Fathers Sough... - 4/10/2010 4:04:05 PM   
cpK69


Posts: 1593
Joined: 5/9/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: belladevine


I saw a History Channel show about Benjamin Franklin.

He was a super kinky and had a dungeon for wild parties and crazy bdsm fun.





Was it common knowledge, or kept a secret? Fun for whom, everyone involved, or just the guy with the 'neat stuff'?


quote:

The founding fathers were pretty cool if you think about it.



Did they have nothing to do with the slaying of the native peoples?


quote:

As soon as we have freedom from religion then everybody can be kinky without fear of condemnation and tyranny.



Actually, people need to learn not to judge for fear to go away. Judging is not restricted to those of religion, and one does not need a religion, to be religious.

Kim

p.s. freedom is a sense of balance from within; liberty affords the ability to act.

_____________________________

Humility is where weakness and strength meet and humanity begins.

one voice

(in reply to belladevine)
Profile   Post #: 37
RE: The Aristocratic Tyranny Our Founding Fathers Sough... - 4/10/2010 4:13:29 PM   
cpK69


Posts: 1593
Joined: 5/9/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: belladevine


That was then.

This is NOW.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=luef1H24hU8


Cool video. : )

I don't know, NTUY, the rythem of that song gets my heart pounding so fast, it hurts; really.

I'm sure we can work something out. ; )

Kim

_____________________________

Humility is where weakness and strength meet and humanity begins.

one voice

(in reply to belladevine)
Profile   Post #: 38
RE: The Aristocratic Tyranny Our Founding Fathers Sough... - 4/10/2010 6:42:33 PM   
cpK69


Posts: 1593
Joined: 5/9/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: subfever


A quick glance at any "fat thread" or any obvious right vs. left thread will clearly demonstrate that emotion is where the action is.




Yes, and thankfully, the affect is not limited to that which invokes negative emotions. : )

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EQj3LIH-DqM


quote:

This is why we are so easy manipulated, pitted against each other, and easy patsies for the PTB to "govern."



A large part of it, I believe.

Logic really doesn't rank high on the list of 'ways to determine what one should do'.

Kim

_____________________________

Humility is where weakness and strength meet and humanity begins.

one voice

(in reply to subfever)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: The Aristocratic Tyranny Our Founding Fathers Sough... - 4/12/2010 8:33:07 AM   
subfever


Posts: 2895
Joined: 5/22/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

quote:

I'm sure no one would argue against such basic principles that monetary systems are measurements, and that resources have value.


You're the one who raised the question.


I wanted to demonstrate how our thought processes have been confined into a box, though I admit I handled it awkwardly.

The point is, it's difficult for most of us to define the value of resources without assigning monetary values to them.

(in reply to Musicmystery)
Profile   Post #: 40
Page:   <<   < prev  1 [2] 3 4   next >   >>
All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> Dungeon of Political and Religious Discussion >> RE: The Aristocratic Tyranny Our Founding Fathers Sought to Protect Our Republic From Page: <<   < prev  1 [2] 3 4   next >   >>
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts




Collarchat.com © 2025
Terms of Service Privacy Policy Spam Policy

0.156