RE: Beyond "the power to leave"--what is power, who has it, and how does it manifest itself? (Full Version)

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belladevine -> RE: Beyond "the power to leave"--what is power, who has it, and how does it manifest itself? (4/8/2010 4:48:08 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomImus

Consent is power.When you give it you are handing over control but only on your own terms. Whatever control the dominant has derives from the consent he was given by the submissive. To see that the submissive truly has the power in the dynamic you only need to look as far as some of the common conditions otherwise known as limits. When a submissive dictates the manner in which she will be dominated it's very clear who is in control.

Just my two cents.









A submissive person simply has a submissive personality.
This meaning that they are non confrontational, non assertive in a power situation.
Submissive people are submissive in most of their relationships with friends, co workers, family and partners.
Submissives are passive in nature but that does not mean that they surrender all of their rights.


A slave is not necessarily submissive. A slave can and should be a strong personality.
A slave must be strong but willing to submit....that is what enables them to fully engage in a power exchange.

I could never understand the mentality that believes slaves are worthless.



catize -> RE: Beyond "the power to leave"--what is power, who has it, and how does it manifest itself? (4/8/2010 6:32:45 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomImus

Consent is power.When you give it you are handing over control but only on your own terms. Whatever control the dominant has derives from the consent he was given by the submissive. To see that the submissive truly has the power in the dynamic you only need to look as far as some of the common conditions otherwise known as limits. When a submissive dictates the manner in which she will be dominated it's very clear who is in control.

Just my two cents.

Unless, of course, the amount of authority/power/control one is willing to give is the exact amount the dominant wishes to hold and wield.



lucylucy -> RE: Beyond "the power to leave"--what is power, who has it, and how does it manifest itself? (4/8/2010 8:57:59 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomImus
Consent is power.When you give it you are handing over control but only on your own terms. Whatever control the dominant has derives from the consent he was given by the submissive. To see that the submissive truly has the power in the dynamic you only need to look as far as some of the common conditions otherwise known as limits. When a submissive dictates the manner in which she will be dominated it's very clear who is in control.

First, I don't think that having a few limits that the Dominant accepts really constitutes "dictating the manner in which she is dominated." That seems like a really big stretch to me.

Second, lots of us don't have limits beyond those our Dom sets for us. In yoru opinion, are we still in control?



lucylucy -> RE: Beyond "the power to leave"--what is power, who has it, and how does it manifest itself? (4/8/2010 9:12:40 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kinkyfetishlife
The submissive/slave agrees to submit or become a slave, this option is power. The power is in the choice. A sub/slave will find someone they are compatible with, make sure the limits match, this was said over and over again in the other thread, so that the hard limit issue never comes up. I asked do slaves have hard limits, not counting illegal or go kill yourself stuff. They continuously said, His limits are my limits, but they already knew what those limits were before making the decision to be that persons sub/slave.

I think you're assuming here that people are static and they (and their limits) don't change. My Owner is into some things that I was not into originally; in other words, our limits weren't the same. He inspired me to surrender everything to him, including all limits. In the time that we've been together, some of his limits have changed a bit, too. So I really disagree with you that "a sub/slave will . . . amke sure the limits match," etc. It's just not true that I "already knew his limits" before deciding to submit to him. I couldn't have anticipated how they would chagne--he couldn't have, either.



lucylucy -> RE: Beyond "the power to leave"--what is power, who has it, and how does it manifest itself? (4/8/2010 9:15:59 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Focus50

Lucy, your power (as a sub) isn't that you can leave, it's that your Dom would want you to stay.

This makes sense to me. Also, it goes both ways. He wants me to stay--and I want him to let me stay.



SailingBum -> RE: Beyond "the power to leave"--what is power, who has it, and how does it manifest itself? (4/8/2010 10:57:04 PM)

Power is simply control over someone else destiny.  Parents, Boss, Judge.  It seems as tho ppl constantly try to make it more difficult than it really is.  Grab a gun and point <yes really>be it hunting or war are examples that come to mind.  The concept of power will become crystal clear.

BadOne



aldompdx -> RE: Beyond "the power to leave"--what is power, who has it, and how does it manifest itself? (4/9/2010 12:15:33 AM)

Each person has their own personal power, which includes free choice and self will. Nobody can take that away, or exchange it. They can only work to violate it, usually because they lack awareness of their own.

Surrender requires continuous consent by free choice from self will. It is a manifestation of one's personal power, not weakness. Surrender is not of one's power, but the authority to exercise it, which may be willfully delegated to another.

Love arises in the only place it is ever felt, one's very own heart. It is neither given nor taken, in a bargain of giving to get love.



DomImus -> RE: Beyond "the power to leave"--what is power, who has it, and how does it manifest itself? (4/9/2010 1:50:24 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: catize
Unless, of course, the amount of authority/power/control one is willing to give is the exact amount the dominant wishes to hold and wield.


That would fall under the heading of having found someone who will dominate you in the exact manner you wish to be dominated.



DomImus -> RE: Beyond "the power to leave"--what is power, who has it, and how does it manifest itself? (4/9/2010 2:05:10 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: lucylucy
First, I don't think that having a few limits that the Dominant accepts really constitutes "dictating the manner in which she is dominated." That seems like a really big stretch to me.


It's not dictating in the manner of handing a script to the dominant to follow but if her submission comes with conditions then at the very least it's conditional submission. In your example the dominant is also culpable in his acceptance of same.

quote:

Second, lots of us don't have limits beyond those our Dom sets for us. In your opinion, are we still in control?


If a submissive expresses limits that don't fall on the dominant's radar of things he desires to do the point may seem moot and it essentially is for those activities. As long as she doesn't lay any other limits down on the table that affect things he wishes to do he pretty much has free reign but that free reign still comes from her initial consent which leads back to my "consent equals power" statement. I realize that I am slicing the semantics of this in a very thin fashion but that's the way I see it. People proclaim how dominant or submissive they may be in their relationship but it's all pretty much a facade - even in my own relationship. As long as you enjoy the facade for what it is it's all good.

Edited to add: When I speak of facades I do so purely in respect to the dominant/submissive dynamic with respect to WIITWD. I don't mean the relationships on the whole.



kanina -> RE: Beyond "the power to leave"--what is power, who has it, and how does it manifest itself? (4/9/2010 2:11:00 AM)

I think that both people have power in a relationship. what changes in a bdsm relation is that one of the people in that relation gives to the other the power and can at anytime for whatever reason get it back...So in a sense they both have power, one just does not use it... For exemple if the sub feels for any reason that she is not happy with the owner and he does not give her freedom she can leave even if he does allow it...



catize -> RE: Beyond "the power to leave"--what is power, who has it, and how does it manifest itself? (4/9/2010 4:45:38 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomImus

quote:

ORIGINAL: catize
Unless, of course, the amount of authority/power/control one is willing to give is the exact amount the dominant wishes to hold and wield.


That would fall under the heading of having found someone who will dominate you in the exact manner you wish to be dominated.


Agreed, with the added thought that the dominant has found a match as well. I put that in the category of compatibility rather than control.
As a submissive, I do not believe it is up to me to tell the dominant which aspects of authority they “should” be willing to take on.



CaringandReal -> RE: Beyond "the power to leave"--what is power, who has it, and how does it manifest itself? (4/9/2010 4:57:13 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: lucylucy

There have been a few threads lately in which the idea that the submissive partner (sub, slave, property, etc.) has all the power in a D/s relationship has come up. The argument seems to go like this: because the s-partner can leave or withdraw consent at any time, he/she is the powerful one. Aside from the fact that a Dom can leave any time, too, I don't get the logic to the argument. As I explained it in one thread, I think equating "the power to leave" with "real power" is a mistake. Isn't that like saying that because my house would be worth a ton of money if I sold it, I have a lot of money? Only if I sell my house, which I don't plan to do. Up until the moment I sell the house, I have very little money (if any). I see the leaving as power thing similarly. Until the moment I leave, where's my power?

In my mind, power is about control, and if all I can control is when I leave, I just don't see how that's "all the power" in the relationship. If I'm with someone for 20 years and for 20 years my power amounts to being able to leave, can it really be siad that for 20 years I had "all the power" in the relationship? I just don't see it. Furthermore, if the sub has "all the power," that means the Dom is powerless. Now that I really don't see.

How do you define power? What do s-types and D-types do that demonstrate their power? Who has power in your relationship?

I am especially curious about D-types feeling powerless and s-types feeling powerful in D/s relationships.


This premise doesn't leave me with anything to say, but I'll say it anyway. ;) I'll try to keep it brief, so as to not derail the thread.

Veto power is a very encompassing, effective, and extreme form of power. Ask any president. It's even more powerful in personal relationships where two people have fallen in love and become emotionally dependent on each other. To me, letting a slave have the power of leaving is letting that slave have all the power in the relationship. Anything left after that is a sham, an act, a "roleplay." I know this is a strong way of putting it. But it's how I experience it.

"How do you define power?"

As said above, veto power is a good part of my definition, in relationships and in politics. What's left is often persuasion or salemanship (which, while powerful in their own ways, are always chancy, always dependent upon someone else with stronger persuasion abilities not coming along) and "tricks" or deception, a form of power one generally thinks of (bad) submissives as in engaging in, not dominants. In a personal relationship, the power to stop something in its tracks will keep the other person in line, under control, whether they acknowlege it or not. So, for me, there is no power to define in the "sub can walk" relationship you describe.

You know, I think that all "submissive can walk at any time" relationships should also have, for the dom, a "one strike and you're out" clause. It seems only fair!



twistedreality -> RE: Beyond "the power to leave"--what is power, who has it, and how does it manifest itself? (4/9/2010 5:02:00 AM)

I always win at Monopoly because If I am not winning, I quit.



Focus50 -> RE: Beyond "the power to leave"--what is power, who has it, and how does it manifest itself? (4/9/2010 5:19:53 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomImus

Consent is power.When you give it you are handing over control but only on your own terms. Whatever control the dominant has derives from the consent he was given by the submissive. To see that the submissive truly has the power in the dynamic you only need to look as far as some of the common conditions otherwise known as limits. When a submissive dictates the manner in which she will be dominated it's very clear who is in control.

Just my two cents.

Well I'm gobsmacked...!

I think your "two cents" is about the most conflicted and convoluted mess I've ever read.

I'm assuming from your screen name that you're a Dominant but after reading these somewhat bitter thoughts, I'm wondering why that hell you'd wanna torture yourself pursueing a relationship in what's apparently a humiliating role for you....

Focus.



lucylucy -> RE: Beyond "the power to leave"--what is power, who has it, and how does it manifest itself? (4/9/2010 6:11:32 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: CaringandReal
To me, letting a slave have the power of leaving is letting that slave have all the power in the relationship.


I understand what you're saying about veto power, but to me, the above sentence really makes no logical sense. If I LET someone have or do something, I'm the one with the power. If I have the power to LET someone do something, I also have the power to NOT LET them do something.



Smutmonger -> RE: Beyond "the power to leave"--what is power, who has it, and how does it manifest itself? (4/9/2010 7:27:39 AM)

The power of the regard and passion people have for each other is all that there is. Which is why I totally ignore D/s protocols/lifestyle and simply allow things to form in the natural organic manner.

Stereotypical expectations only point to a blatant insecurity in self to me.

I don't follow "forms."



leadership527 -> RE: Beyond "the power to leave"--what is power, who has it, and how does it manifest itself? (4/9/2010 7:44:10 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: lucylucy
I understand what you're saying about veto power, but to me, the above sentence really makes no logical sense. If I LET someone have or do something, I'm the one with the power. If I have the power to LET someone do something, I also have the power to NOT LET them do something.
Which also begs the interesting question... how, exactly, did the dominant acquire the power to NOT LET the submissive leave? Not that I think such a thing can't be done, but it isn't going to be fast or easy without even discussing the ethical complications of actually using said power.



jbcurious -> RE: Beyond "the power to leave"--what is power, who has it, and how does it manifest itself? (4/9/2010 7:57:04 AM)

I really am failing to understand the importance that people are putting on "power" and "control".  In any relationship be it BDSM or vanilla... a person has the right to end the relationship, and should, if the parties involved are no longer compatible or have lost the connection that brought and kept them together.

The words that LnT posted were so beautiful to me... to give myself to someone to such a degree that they in turn accept to such a degree that we become a necessity to each other... completing a need that we both have... is all that seems important to me.

But then I´m new... and may be looking at to simply.



Smutmonger -> RE: Beyond "the power to leave"--what is power, who has it, and how does it manifest itself? (4/9/2010 8:04:34 AM)

There is an intimacy that comes only from knowing a person and accepting them. Of being fearless without masks in the prescence of another.

In finding that light and darkness are one. And in knowing in at least one place in a large cold world-a haven is waiting for you.  [;)]


quote:

ORIGINAL: jbcurious

I really am failing to understand the importance that people are putting on "power" and "control".  In any relationship be it BDSM or vanilla... a person has the right to end the relationship, and should, if the parties involved are no longer compatible or have lost the connection that brought and kept them together.

The words that LnT posted were so beautiful to me... to give myself to someone to such a degree that they in turn accept to such a degree that we become a necessity to each other... completing a need that we both have... is all that seems important to me.

But then I´m new... and may be looking at to simply.




jbcurious -> RE: Beyond "the power to leave"--what is power, who has it, and how does it manifest itself? (4/9/2010 8:06:49 AM)

A comforting thought... Thank You.



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