RE: Valued Added Tax Solution (Full Version)

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[Poll]

Valued Added Tax Solution


YES - I would support replacing the Tax Code with a 20% VAT
  42% (14)
NO - I do not support replacing the Tax Code with a 20% VAT.
  57% (19)


Total Votes : 33
(last vote on : 4/10/2010 5:59:28 AM)
(Poll will run till: -- )


Message


Musicmystery -> RE: Valued Added Tax Solution (4/8/2010 9:04:16 PM)

Why?

Food is untaxed now. And sometimes clothing.




NeedToUseYou -> RE: Valued Added Tax Solution (4/8/2010 9:06:26 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Why?

Food is untaxed now. And sometimes clothing.


It doesn't apply, now I was thinking of a different taxation method as VAT. Brainfart. Ignore my previous ramblings.




Elisabella -> RE: Valued Added Tax Solution (4/8/2010 9:19:18 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Why?

Food is untaxed now. And sometimes clothing.


I don't know about where you live but in IL groceries are taxed at 1%




Musicmystery -> RE: Valued Added Tax Solution (4/8/2010 9:20:43 PM)

OK. They aren't in NYS.




Silence8 -> RE: Valued Added Tax Solution (4/8/2010 9:40:05 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery


quote:

ORIGINAL: servantforuse

The entire system should be scrapped and replaced with a 'flat tax'..Right now the top 10% of the wage earners pay 73% of the federal income tax. 47% of Americans pay nothing. Something has to give.


So your plan is to tax the poor to give to the rich?

You do know, don't you, that the poor don't have money? That was the problem with feudalism.
Servant is just a poor deluded retired working man...who must have convinced himself that he will win the lottery tomorrow....so he wants to get a jump on espousing the party line of a class he doesn't now and will nevr belong to.
How does the Republican Party hoodwink these poor slobs?


(See Teabonics Thread.)




Thadius -> RE: Valued Added Tax Solution (4/8/2010 9:41:21 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

hi Master Tim, Master Thadius

i admit i dont know much about this tax. Could either of you give me an example of how it would work, on a product of your chosing, please??

No worries, here is a pretty good example from wiki.

quote:


Example
Consider the manufacture and sale of any item, which in this case we will call a widget. In what follows , the term "gross margin" is used rather than "profit". Profit is only what is left after paying other costs, such as rent and personnel.

[edit] Without any tax
A widget manufacturer spends $1.00 on raw materials and uses them to make a widget.
The widget is sold wholesale to a widget retailer for $1.20, making a gross margin of $0.20.
The widget retailer then sells the widget to a widget consumer for $1.50, making a gross margin of $0.30.
[edit] With a North American (Canadian provincial and U.S. state) sales tax
With a 10% sales tax:-

The manufacturer pays $1.00 for the raw materials, certifying it is not a final consumer.
The manufacturer charges the retailer $1.20, checking that the retailer is not a consumer, leaving the same gross margin of $0.20.
The retailer charges the consumer $1.65 ($1.50 + $1.50x10%) and pays the government $0.15, leaving the gross margin of $0.30.
So the consumer has paid 10% ($0.15) extra, compared to the no taxation scheme, and the government has collected this amount in taxation. The retailers have not paid any tax directly (it is the consumer who has paid the tax), but the retailer has to do the paperwork in order to correctly pass on to the government the sales tax it has collected. Suppliers and manufacturers only have the administrative burden of supplying correct certifications, and checking that their customers (retailers) aren't consumers.

[edit] With a value added tax
With a 10% VAT:

The manufacturer pays $1.10 ($1 + $1x10%) for the raw materials, and the seller of the raw materials pays the government $0.10.
The manufacturer charges the retailer $1.32 ($1.20 + $1.20x10%) and pays the government $0.02 ($0.12 minus $0.10), leaving the same gross margin of $0.20.
The retailer charges the consumer $1.65 ($1.50 + $1.50x10%) and pays the government $0.03 ($0.15 minus $0.12), leaving the gross margin of $0.30 (1.65-1.32-.03).
With VAT, the consumer has paid, and the government received, the same as with sales tax. The businesses have not incurred any tax themselves. Their obligation is limited to assuming the necessary paperwork in order to pass on to the government the difference between what they collect in VAT (output tax, an 11th of their sales) and what they spend in VAT (input VAT, an 11th of their expenditure on goods and services subject to VAT). However they are freed from any obligation to request certifications from purchasers who are not end users, and of providing such certifications to their suppliers.

Note that in each case the VAT paid is equal to 10% of the gross margin, or 'value added'.

The advantage of the VAT system over the sales tax system is that under sales tax, the seller has no incentive to disbelieve a purchaser who says it is not a final user. That is to say the payer of the tax has no incentive to collect the tax. Under VAT, all sellers collect tax and pay it to the government. A purchaser has an incentive to deduct input VAT, but must prove it has the right to do so, which is usually achieved by holding an invoice quoting the VAT paid on the purchase, and indicating the VAT registration number of the supplier.

[edit] Limitations to example and VAT
In the above example, we assumed that the same number of widgets were made and sold both before and after the introduction of the tax. This is not true in real life.

The fundamentals of supply and demand suggest that any tax raises the cost of transaction for someone, whether it is the seller or purchaser. In raising the cost, either the demand curve shifts leftward, or the supply curve shifts upward. The two are functionally equivalent. Consequently, the quantity of a good purchased decreases, and/or the price for which it is sold increases.

This shift in supply and demand is not incorporated into the above example, for simplicity and because these effects are different for every type of good. The above example assumes the tax is non-distortionary.

A VAT, like most taxes, distorts what would have happened without it. Because the price for someone rises, the quantity of goods traded decreases. Correspondingly, some people are worse off by more than the government is made better off by tax income. That is, more is lost due to supply and demand shifts than is gained in tax. This is known as a deadweight loss. The income lost by the economy is greater than the government's income; the tax is inefficient. The entire amount of the government's income (the tax revenue) may not be a deadweight drag, if the tax revenue is used for productive spending or has positive externalities - in other words, governments may do more than simply consume the tax income. While distortions occur, consumption taxes like VAT are often considered superior because they distort incentives to invest, save and work less than most other types of taxation - in other words, a VAT discourages consumption rather than production.





brainiacsub -> RE: Valued Added Tax Solution (4/8/2010 10:00:58 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery


quote:

ORIGINAL: servantforuse

The entire system should be scrapped and replaced with a 'flat tax'..Right now the top 10% of the wage earners pay 73% of the federal income tax. 47% of Americans pay nothing. Something has to give.


So your plan is to tax the poor to give to the rich?

You do know, don't you, that the poor don't have money? That was the problem with feudalism.
Servant is just a poor deluded retired working man...who must have convinced himself that he will win the lottery tomorrow....so he wants to get a jump on espousing the party line of a class he doesn't now and will nevr belong to.
How does the Republican Party hoodwink these poor slobs?

ROFL...I am soooo staying out of this one.




subfever -> RE: Valued Added Tax Solution (4/8/2010 10:07:54 PM)

quote:

NO!!!
Anyone who "wants" a tax is sick.


Best post in the thread so far.




variation30 -> RE: Valued Added Tax Solution (4/8/2010 11:43:18 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Yet you are insisting this is a better alternative to taxes. Not knowing doesnt make the alternative better, it makes you appear uninformed. Its not my place to prove your point.


When we get down to the actual planning of a business, there is no way to know what methods will work best unless they are implemented against competing models.

quote:

So because you are negligent and start a house fire, i have to pay for the prevention of that fire from spreading to my home? Yeah, i can see that going over really well.


well for one, this is what already happens today...

but additionally, you don't 'have' to pay for a fire service to prevent your place burning down. but if you do pay for that service, it would protect you from fires you start as well as fires started elsewhere. I don't see what the problem is and I have a feeling you are losing a lot of what I am saying in your comprehension of my posts.

quote:

Perhaps another reason is the downsizing, and closures, of many businesses in this economy through no fault of the employees. Not to mention, many of that level were given tax cuts over the past few years, and they still cant make it. There is enough blame to go around for everyone.


the blame is to be placed on any institution that obfuscates prices and the information represented by prices. a few come to mind.

quote:

You are promoting a fee based system for firefighters... what is there are no fires? Where does the money for salaries come from? I dont see that as an elementary question, except in the fact that you are so overthinking this one that the basics are slipping over your head.


what I would propose if I were to model this business is a monthly or quarterly fee to protect against fires so long as you pay. it would work similar to insurance.

quote:

You promoted this idea sa a viable solution to the current system, yet i am once again seeing the "i dont know" answer. Guesses dont cut it.


you are missing the point. my 'I don't know' is due to me not knowing what would be the best model for a fire department. as I said previously, private fire departments do exist and have existed in the past. I do not work at one. if you are really curious as to how they could possibly work (and how they seem to be able to do their job more cheaply and as effectively as municipal fire departments), you are one email away.

if you don't care enough to do this and expect me to spend the time drawing out a hundred page model of how a specific industry could be privatized, well then you win because I don't have the time to do such. so you can just go on believing it would be impossible for the services (most of which either have been provided privately in the past and/or are provided privately in the present) could never be implemented privately.

quote:

Why would you have a hard time believing it? Corporations do alot of crazy things in the guise of cost savings. Sometimes closing down a plant is cheaper than running it. Burning it to the ground is even cheaper than keeping it up, allowing the company to collect the insurance proceeds. Businesses who want to keep it up and running could just as easily run their own internal fire department, having to give no beneficial help to a community one at all.


what insurance company would insure a building against fire damage that does not pay for fire protection?

but what if a business wanted to have there own internal fire department, why is that a bad thing? why should a private company have to 'help the community'. what does 'helping the community' even mean in this instance?

truth be told, this is a gigantic waste of time on my part.




variation30 -> RE: Valued Added Tax Solution (4/8/2010 11:48:08 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

I think it would open the new system to abuse and would be complicated. Just use a sales tax then adjust the rate each year as needed to reflect deficits or surpluses.

Otherwise keep it simple.

Butch


there is a larger issue here.

does anyone on this forum believe that their tax money pays for all of the services, programs, salaries, and subsidies a government wants to enact?

that is to say, if a government only takes in a trillion dollars in taxes, they will only carry out a trillion dollars worth of actions.

of course not. if tax money does not cover a government's agenda they will either borrow the rest of the money or create it. so if taxes are not required for a government to carry on, why have them? why not just let the government borrow or print all the money it wants to play around with and let the citizens keep the fruits of their labor.

well, there is the obvious problem of inflation which diminishes the prosperity of a nation as quickly as taxation...but I am curious if people actually think how much or how little a government takes in with taxes does anything at all to effect their budgets and spending.




variation30 -> RE: Valued Added Tax Solution (4/8/2010 11:53:08 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

So my asshole neighbor is sort of like you...and doesn't pay the local fire dept.....since he's not on their list,they don't come when his house sets ablaze.Well lo and behold the fire,which has a mind of its own...and doesn't give a shit....jumps houses and sets both houses on either side of the asshole(the guy like you ,who didn't pay for fire insurance)ablaze....and now I'm up shits creek hoping the fire brigade,which heretofor had ignored this blaze will get their asses here in a hurry....oh shit the cat just went up in flames....All thanks to that asshole(the guy like you,who didn't pay for fire insurance)who didn't pay for fire insurance.


neither one of us are firefighters...yet we both see this as a blatant problem. do you honestly believe someone who has put a massive amount of their private property on the line for a private company that protects against fires would not also see this contingency?

here is how I would handle this, if you are home, it would be easy for you to say, yeah, the house next to mine is on fire, it would be a good idea for you to get over here and contain it from spreading to my property - which would be a service provided by any company that wants to make a buck and keep their customers.

but what if no one is home. well, we have security systems which alert private companies when anything busts into one of your doors or windows, how difficult would it be to design and implement a device that would detect smoke or heat on your property and alert the business which handles your fire prevention...not very difficult.

was this really too difficult for you to figure out on your own?




tazzygirl -> RE: Valued Added Tax Solution (4/9/2010 1:00:27 AM)

Such a system is too filled with confusion. Its simpler, easier and in the best interest of all to maintain a public fire department, along with other such services. As much as you may not like the idea, some taxes will continue to be the norm.




JstAnotherSub -> RE: Valued Added Tax Solution (4/9/2010 5:11:55 AM)

Thanks so much for that Thadius....it clicked the final pieces into place that my mind wasnt getting.

Some day I will remember google is my friend, and not get such headaches-lolol.




pahunkboy -> RE: Valued Added Tax Solution (4/9/2010 5:27:25 AM)

Food and clothing not taxed in PA.

Back in 88 such was 6% in IL.

IMO most locales have gotten stupid with sales taxes, particularly ones to build stadiums.




LadyEllen -> RE: Valued Added Tax Solution (4/9/2010 6:07:49 AM)

VAT here is a tax on the value added - that is the difference between the cost (or purchase price) and the sale value.

Businesses register for VAT if their turnover is above a certain level or because they wish to or because they need to (trading with the rest of the EU for instance, which is not important to this discussion)

At the end of each quarter (month in some EU countries), the business tots up its sales turnover on which it charged VAT and then tots up its purchases on which it paid VAT. It then pays to the government the difference between these two figures - ie the purchase VAT paid is deducted from the sales VAT charged.

If you sold £1000-00 worth of goods, the tax at 20% would be £200-00
If you paid £500-00 for those goods, the tax at 20% would be £100-00
so the company would pay £200-00 - £100-00 = £100-00 in VAT to government

Businesses can get VAT refunds, if their purchases outweigh their sales; though this is likely to attract attention and investigation; VAT fraud is a problem and there are all manner of ways the creative can get rich.

Aside from fraud, VAT offers some interesting cashflow advantages in terms of the extra incomes up to the point when net VAT is remitted.

By listing items as exempt from the VAT regime, the government does not add cost to purchases of everyday necessities such as food.

E




pahunkboy -> RE: Valued Added Tax Solution (4/9/2010 6:12:38 AM)

E.  When I send my buddy is IE stuff- it has to mark-- a certain way-- or it is VAT.  I find that incredulous.




Archer -> RE: Valued Added Tax Solution (4/9/2010 8:28:14 AM)

The big thing is this government will never replace the income tax with a VAT tax they will however put  a VAT in addition to the income tax.

I am a big supporter of the Fair Tax, which is an entirely different animal from both the Flat Tax and a VAT.





Musicmystery -> RE: Valued Added Tax Solution (4/9/2010 9:23:08 AM)

quote:

if tax money does not cover a government's agenda they will either borrow the rest of the money or create it. so if taxes are not required for a government to carry on, why have them? why not just let the government borrow or print all the money it wants to play around with and let the citizens keep the fruits of their labor.


Because no one would loan to such a government.




popeye1250 -> RE: Valued Added Tax Solution (4/9/2010 9:25:51 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Archer

The big thing is this government will never replace the income tax with a VAT tax they will however put  a VAT in addition to the income tax.

I am a big supporter of the Fair Tax, which is an entirely different animal from both the Flat Tax and a VAT.




So this "V.A.T. tax" would be *in addition* to current taxes? What a fucking deal!
The govt. needs to start *cutting spending.* They come up with all kinds of excuses to *not* do their job.




Mercnbeth -> RE: Valued Added Tax Solution (4/9/2010 9:35:28 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250
quote:

ORIGINAL: Archer
The big thing is this government will never replace the income tax with a VAT tax they will however put  a VAT in addition to the income tax.

I am a big supporter of the Fair Tax, which is an entirely different animal from both the Flat Tax and a VAT.


So this "V.A.T. tax" would be *in addition* to current taxes? What a fucking deal!
The govt. needs to start *cutting spending.* They come up with all kinds of excuses to *not* do their job.

Popeye,
I agree with Archer, the VAT will be used in addition. The OP, and the poll question, is theoretical in nature. When the US sees a VAT it will be as it is in Europe, in addition to all the taxes currently in place.




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