RE: Obama authorizes killing of US citizen (Full Version)

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pahunkboy -> RE: Obama authorizes killing of US citizen (4/9/2010 12:00:19 PM)

FR;

He who lives by the sword...  dies by the sword.



mnottertail -> RE: Obama authorizes killing of US citizen (4/9/2010 12:03:13 PM)

my facts are not wrong and you haven't any. Uh, check your bolding and ask yourself a simple question, is this fellow been killed yet? tough talk is cheap for a politician no matter whos boy he is.

so there we sit, seeing two different things with the same information, big surprise, huh?



FirmhandKY -> RE: Obama authorizes killing of US citizen (4/9/2010 12:19:20 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

and obama is carrying on the bush policy that the entire world is a battlefield in regards to terror, and that hasn't been successfully challenged to date.

Sorta how bush got to torture a us citizen and keep him from court for three years before relenting.



Off-topic and deflection.  You are not addressing your claim that "just about every president whos went to war" has ordered assassinations of American citizens without due process.

You've failed to provide any example, and wish to change the subject.

***

Addressing your latest attempts to deflect the discussion from targeted Presidential assassinations of American citizens without due process:

and obama is carrying on the bush policy that the entire world is a battlefield in regards to terror, and that hasn't been successfully challenged to date.
Bush never had a policy of actual assassination of American citizens without due process.  It was possible that American citizens would be killed, but it was not a stated goal and policy.  With Obama's directive, it is.

Sorta how bush got to torture a us citizen and keep him from court for three years before relenting.
I've already stated that I disagree with holding an American citizen without due process.  I'm not going to get into a fruitless discussion on "torture" versus "harsh interrogation" (you'd like to deflect from the point under discussion, I know.).

But, I take it then, that you now excuse the Obama admin's targeted assassination policy due to a failure on the previous admin's part (for which they were sued, and then obeyed the court)?

Not much for civil rights, are you, now that the shoe is on the other political foot?

This smacks of hypocrisy on your part to me.

Firm



FirmhandKY -> RE: Obama authorizes killing of US citizen (4/9/2010 12:25:29 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

my facts are not wrong and you haven't any. Uh, check your bolding and ask yourself a simple question, is this fellow been killed yet? tough talk is cheap for a politician no matter whos boy he is.

so there we sit, seeing two different things with the same information, big surprise, huh?


Your claim is: "just about every president whos went to war" has ordered assassinations of American citizens without due process.

Ok, maybe "your facts" aren't wrong.  I apologize.

You have no facts at all.

As far as the American citizen not yet having been murdered ... so you admit that the policy is illegal and immoral ... just not consummated yet?

So ... all of those "right wing militia members" who were recently arrested in Michigan for planning to blow up bombs in front of police stations and murder officers ... really should be released, as not a single officer was actually killed, and not a single bomb was actually exploded?

Not guilty of any crime, in your logic?

Firm



mnottertail -> RE: Obama authorizes killing of US citizen (4/9/2010 12:30:36 PM)

I made no such claim, so take a quick gander and re read what I did respond to, which was to what you said, and only what you said in the post just prior to mine.

do not add to it clauses that I never ever uttered or impute meanings that are not extant. I said what I said, not what you think I said, or thru your intense analysis concluded that due to your insight and parseing abilities, I must have meant, and could have only meant words I did not say.

But yes, I think that policy is as illegal and immoral as it was under bush, (neither of which is or was consumated at this time, or implemented if we are going to use that word) and FYI since it seems to be at issue, obama aint my boy in the whitehouse, no more than bush was.




slvemike4u -> RE: Obama authorizes killing of US citizen (4/9/2010 12:31:47 PM)

So they have changed the conspiricy laws ?If not hold those releases [8|]
You guys can keep arguing the larger picture....but those idiots aren't going anywhere .



pahunkboy -> RE: Obama authorizes killing of US citizen (4/9/2010 12:33:13 PM)

Yeah- spread the freedom around.


! STOMP



FirmhandKY -> RE: Obama authorizes killing of US citizen (4/9/2010 12:37:18 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

I made no such claim, so take a quick gander and re read what I did respond to, which was to what you said, and only what you said in the post just prior to mine.

do not add to it clauses that I never ever uttered or impute meanings that are not extant. I said what I said, not what you think I said, or thru your intense analysis concluded that due to your insight and parseing abilities, I must have meant, and could have only meant words I did not say.




I said in post 52:

I find that any Executive who authorizes and orders the termination of an American citizens life without any due process to be unworthy of this office.

You said in post 53:

That would include just about every president whos went to war.

Therefore, you did indeed make the claim that every President who has "went to war" has indeed authorized and order the termination of American citizens without due process of law.

Give it up Ron, and just admit you spoke hastily, and I'll drop it.  Continuing on this path is simply embarrassing you.

Firm





FirmhandKY -> RE: Obama authorizes killing of US citizen (4/9/2010 12:39:51 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

So they have changed the conspiricy laws ?If not hold those releases [8|]
You guys can keep arguing the larger picture....but those idiots aren't going anywhere .


You miss my point mike.  I'm not saying let them go.  I'm saying conspiring to commit murder is a crime, and they shouldn't be released until they have gone through due process ... and not even then if they are actually guilty of planning to do what they are accused of.

I'm pointing out to Ron - who seems to be making the specious claim that since the American citizen hasn't actually yet been murdered, no crime has been committed - that conspiracy and/or intent can be a crime all in it's self.

Firm



kdsub -> RE: Obama authorizes killing of US citizen (4/9/2010 12:40:14 PM)

Why do you expect thinking reasonable citizens to take that website and its claims as truth?

Maybe you could show proof that there is such a list and Obama put this particular person on it.

Butch



mnottertail -> RE: Obama authorizes killing of US citizen (4/9/2010 12:42:40 PM)

Therefore, you did indeed make the claim that every President who has "went to war" has indeed authorized and ordered the termination of American citizens without due process of law

Which is indeed a claim I did make. and not the claim you accused me of making. By the was to be clear, I changed order to ordered.

Seen many dead american soldiers lately? I have. They were tried where? who advocated on their behalf?



pahunkboy -> RE: Obama authorizes killing of US citizen (4/9/2010 12:45:01 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

Therefore, you did indeed make the claim that every President who has "went to war" has indeed authorized and ordered the termination of American citizens without due process of law

Which is indeed a claim I did make. and not the claim you accused me of making. By the was to be clear, I changed order to ordered.

Seen many dead american soldiers lately? I have. They were tried where? who advocated on their behalf?


See building 7.



slvemike4u -> RE: Obama authorizes killing of US citizen (4/9/2010 12:46:52 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

So they have changed the conspiricy laws ?If not hold those releases [8|]
You guys can keep arguing the larger picture....but those idiots aren't going anywhere .


You miss my point mike.  I'm not saying let them go.  I'm saying conspiring to commit murder is a crime, and they shouldn't be released until they have gone through due process ... and not even then if they are actually guilty of planning to do what they are accused of.

I'm pointing out to Ron - who seems to be making the specious claim that since the American citizen hasn't actually yet been murdered, no crime has been committed - that conspiracy and/or intent can be a crime all in it's self.

Firm

No Firm,I understood your point perfectly...I was just attempting to draw attention between the VAST difference between a sitting President(who I will fully conced is not and never has been above the law) and some yahoos sitting around the garage planning their won mini-rebellion.
Now having said that no President is above the law...we all know that is so much bullshit....the proof of that is sitting somewhere in Texas enjoying his retirement.



FirmhandKY -> RE: Obama authorizes killing of US citizen (4/9/2010 12:46:52 PM)

The death of service-members in combat is now "targeted assassination without due process"?

You are incorrigible, Ron! [:)]

Firm



mnottertail -> RE: Obama authorizes killing of US citizen (4/9/2010 12:46:53 PM)

I'm pointing out to Ron - who seems to be making the specious claim that since the American citizen hasn't actually yet been murdered, no crime has been committed - that conspiracy and/or intent can be a crime all in it's self.

again, imputing notions to me.

My actual stand would be closer to this, if Obama is guilty of this, Bush is as well.

We can cavil about implementation and consummation, but hey comes to exactly the same thing.



mnottertail -> RE: Obama authorizes killing of US citizen (4/9/2010 12:49:18 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

The death of service-members in combat is now "targeted assassination without due process"?

You are incorrigible, Ron! [:)]

Firm




you are pathetically disingenous. targeted assassination? show me the post where I claimed that?



FirmhandKY -> RE: Obama authorizes killing of US citizen (4/9/2010 12:50:31 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

I'm pointing out to Ron - who seems to be making the specious claim that since the American citizen hasn't actually yet been murdered, no crime has been committed - that conspiracy and/or intent can be a crime all in it's self.

again, imputing notions to me.

My actual stand would be closer to this, if Obama is guilty of this, Bush is as well.

We can cavil about implementation and consummation, but hey comes to exactly the same thing.


You are cavil about the facts.  They do not come out to the same thing.

Bush is not guilty of the same thing.  He came close, but did not cross the line, as I've documented in this thread.

Obama took a flying leap into the darkside with this directive, plain as day.

You are far from dumb, and unobservant, therefore this is some sort of willful blindness on your part.

Have you had any of your political compatriots come and join you in your claims?  No?  Why not do you think?

Firm



pahunkboy -> RE: Obama authorizes killing of US citizen (4/9/2010 12:50:42 PM)

Mike,

Bush has a massive compound in South America.   He is not in Texas very much.

http://spiritofla76.blogspot.com/2008/03/will-bush-flee-to-paraguay.html



mnottertail -> RE: Obama authorizes killing of US citizen (4/9/2010 12:56:07 PM)

no, you did not do much there: He came close, but did not cross the line, as I've documented in this thread. you bolded a line that said it was not implemented. what exactly does that mean? Dick cheney went behind him and said do not implement this cretins directive? there was a military coup that happened on fish sticks day and I missed the broadcast?

Implemented/consumated ---- uh, where is the directive that he said wait a fucking minute, what kind of shithead am I? dont listen to me, I with draw that order... did you post it and I missed it? If you did, you have my ready apology. If not, the situation is that he did it, and it happened that it was unriquited, thats all.

Ron



FirmhandKY -> RE: Obama authorizes killing of US citizen (4/9/2010 1:07:41 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

no, you did not do much there: He came close, but did not cross the line, as I've documented in this thread. you bolded a line that said it was not implemented. what exactly does that mean? Dick cheney went behind him and said do not implement this cretins directive? there was a military coup that happened on fish sticks day and I missed the broadcast?

Implemented/consumated ---- uh, where is the directive that he said wait a fucking minute, what kind of shithead am I? dont listen to me, I with draw that order... did you post it and I missed it? If you did, you have my ready apology. If not, the situation is that he did it, and it happened that it was unriquited, thats all.

Ron



Did Bush order the assassination of an American citizen without due process, regardless of where they might be?  No.

Did Obama order the assassination of an American citizen without due process, regardless of where they might be?  Yes.

You see no moral or legal difference in the two cases?

Firm



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