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Apparently, my mother raised me to be a dominant woman - 4/10/2010 9:38:16 AM   
LadyAngelika


Posts: 8070
Joined: 7/4/2004
Status: offline 		Preamble: My mom has no idea what BDSM is nor does she know that I am into WIITWD. She's had a relatively sheltered middle-class life and yet is an extremely open-minded person, but like everyone, she has her opinions, which she might share more candidly with me, because I'm her daughter and she trusts me. I hope people will read the following in that spirit.

I recently had a chance to spend some quality time with my mom and we got into some very deep conversation about life, love, health, career... you name it! We obviously talked about relationships. I am in awe that my father and her managed to make it through 40 years through good times and bad times. She laughed and said she was in awe too. She talked a lot about the dynamics of dating and relationships 40 years ago compared today. She was emerging from an era where a lot of women were simply expected to be submissive to their husbands which was met with great opposition from feminists.

What really floored me was when she commented on one of her sisters, saying "Oh gosh, she is way too submissive to her husband. It annoys me to see this. I've never been submissive to any man and I raised you to not be submissive to any man. You turned out as I hoped, a strong and independent woman, in control like I see you've been in your past relationships."

Wow.

Now, I agree this is a very limited view point and my mother has not had the benefit, as I have, of getting to know strong submissive women, so let's not be too harsh on that one, please.

I'm rather interested in looking at this from the perspective that she really believes she raised me to be more dominant and take charge. Though she's often told me growing up that she raised me to be strong, I never associated that with dominance or submission because I just mentioned, I've met some incredibly strong submissive women. But this was the first time she ever used the terms submissive and alluded to the term dominant.

Now I hope this thread won't take a nature vs .nurture tangent as that isn't the point. I'm much more interested in mother daughter dynamics and how our mothers influence us.

Ladies, have you ever had similar conversations with your mothers? How did it make you feel? What have you drawn from it? Or have you had completely opposite conversations? And do you think your mother had a huge influence?

- LA


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RE: Apparently, my mother raised me to be a dominant woman - 4/10/2010 10:37:45 AM   
Lockit


Posts: 11292
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline 		Wow... interesting topic LA! In fact, they write books on this don't they? lol I think each of us could write a book about our mother/daughter relationships!

I loved my mother very, very much, but she was a wimp. I am not just talking submissive, but actually a wimp when it came to life. A lost person with very little personal strength until much later in life. I raised her that way. Raised her to stop believing that she was weak and that was okay and that no matter what, she had to deal with life and get on with it.

My mother gave me a couple bits of advice that stuck with me for different reasons, not that I actually took her advice. Most of the time I was stunned by what she said and let her know it! lol Let's see... when I was teased because my breast were so big, she told me to slump so that they didn't poke out so much and weren't as noticeable. Then there was the time when she was dating and we were talking and she told me that if I ever didn't want to have sex with a guy, that I could just give him a blow job. I freaked on that one! Why would I want to and mom, is that what you do? No, we need to talk and we did. We talked about sex a great deal and I told her things that might make it better for her... like actually doing it with someone you liked!

Then she told me that if mother nature didn't give it to you, buy it. Um gee mom... what do you do when you get your clothes off and he's shocked that you aren't really you? And finally... if you want to be a bitch to someone and you don't want every one around to know it, smile while being a bitch and no one but the one you intend to be a bitch to, will know.

Grandma (my father's mother) actually had the best advice and she actually floored me when she said it because she never talked this way. She said... Lockit, men don't think past their belt line and you don't know a man until you marry him. Of course she was big on education, being an educator and she worked passed retirement because she loved it. I also think she was far more independent than most women. Until she retired and had to be with grandpa all the time. She became very meek at that point. He wasn't a bad man, but he had a way of making her feel less significant.

I don't know where I got my moxie, but I am darn glad I did! In my family it was either meek unhappy women or true bitches. I ran from them all.

Now my daughter... lil domina in waiting, is a smart cookie, went through her submissive to the Tom Cruise type, learned her lesson and as a single mom, came into her own and finally realized what I taught her was correct. While talking to her husband and explaining my dominant stand in relationships, he said... J wants to be and tries, but she just isn't ready to be dominant. Mind you, this is coming from the guy who ran to do all she asked him to do and gave me such fits of enjoyment and laughter watching them when I first moved here. The man is fighting it in some area's, but I think he is realizing what's really happening. He seems happy with it, so I figure it's all good.

< Message edited by Lockit -- 4/10/2010 10:54:15 AM >

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RE: Apparently, my mother raised me to be a dominant woman - 4/10/2010 10:43:33 AM   
Tantriqu


Posts: 2026
Joined: 12/29/2006
Status: offline 		Absolutely, my mother raised me to be submissive to men, and there but for Canadian secular humanism go I!

I saw very clearly how my mother deferred to my father yet manipulated him: she was literally more intelligent than him [I know both their IQ's] and such passive-aggressive behaviour frankly disgusts me, so I vowed never to dumb myself down like that. Of course, her father was an army sergeant and she was a teacher in an era where she lost her job as soon as she got married, so for her it was environment as well as inclination. My brother married a pretty woman who looks like and acts like my mother: spoooooky. Nurture +/- nature for him!

Most of my best friends and heroes have always been male, but my environment tried some of the same BS with me: in Grade 11, a teacher chose a boy over me as a team captain: when I questioned the teacher privately he said openly although I was better, it was because I'm a girl. Get mad and get even, I say!

Such events hurt and try to weaken us [whatever doesn't kill us leaves us maimed and in pain], but fortunately for me, eventually did the opposite. So absolutely for me, it was nature not nurture, but because I live in Canada, I was never denied my place in academics or work because of my sex, and I was able to flourish.

At first, I tried to play out my first sexual relationship along the only lines I'd seen, those of submission, passive aggression and manipulation: but it didn't work until I stated quite clearly what I do and don't want. So from then on, not only did I discover that clearly expressing my desires and dislikes gets me what I love in and out of bed, but also was shocked and delighted that good vanilla and sub men love pleasing, and love having clear direction without vanilla subterfuge, bratty whining or sullen silence.

I certainly wish the internet or equivalent had been around when I was younger, so I could have read about other Dommes and sub men. But as always, there's a silver lining: if I'd found out about strap-ons with vibes in the base as my sexuality blossomed, and that good-looking alphas and uber-beta males are commonly subs, I likely would have skipped every class in high school to just ass-fuck and Queen the prom king who confessed years later to having a crush on me!

My mother once approached me in tears that I wasn't married. I was poleaxed, and said simply I would never want what she wants [and privately thought I could never settle for what she settled]. However, like my father, I would be a very good husband: good job, good friends, stable family, exercise, rarely drink, have hobbies, so I don't need a husband myself.
If I find one: great! In the meantime, I'm still enjoying the hunt, and love meeting good men. I just won't settle.

And she's not all negative: as an adult, I deprecated my ability to draw when my mother overheard me, and she scolded that I shouldn't hide my talents under a bushel basket [her generation's equivalent of 'You go, girl!'] which is certainly not what she does, so I believe she's starting to see the value of telling the truth.

But I would still never tell her what my leopard-print lace-up harness, quick-release double-D rings, gaffer tape or the straps that run under the four-poster are for. And she just loves how courtly and attentive my men are, so she never notices that sometimes they prefer not to sit!


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RE: Apparently, my mother raised me to be a dominant woman - 4/10/2010 10:56:08 AM   
PeonForHer


Posts: 19612
Joined: 9/27/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika She was emerging from an era where a lot of women were simply expected to be submissive to their husbands which was met with great opposition from feminists.


My mother claims to have raised my sisters the same way, LA - but I've realised over the years that the way she defines words like 'dominant' and 'submissive' re men and women is a long way from the definitions assumed by even those self-identifying 'moderate' feminists of today. It's still further from the way those words are used by the BDSM community. Put it this way: she won't read Cosmopolitan magazine because she says she finds it 'too fierce'.

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RE: Apparently, my mother raised me to be a dominant woman - 4/10/2010 11:59:41 AM   
aphatjohnson


Posts: 8
Joined: 12/23/2006
Status: offline
quote:

WIITWD


OMG!!  Unusual conversations with mom?????  How about,........ "Your dad is really very assertive in bed.  He made me learn how to give him oral sex" ......  Mom, please tell me you didn't really just say that,......... I really don't want to go there!!!!!!  That's not a pretty picture, something I never want to think about. 

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RE: Apparently, my mother raised me to be a dominant woman - 4/10/2010 12:32:57 PM   
switch2please


Posts: 494
Joined: 12/5/2008
Status: offline 		My mother is a strong, opinionated woman who seems to be in charge in most of her relationships. She definitely raised me to be independent and artistic, and while she has a feminist streak herself she focused more on letting me figure out who I am rather than reinforcing gender roles. She's always been more like a friend than a mom so we have an interesting relationship which of course has its pros and cons. We talk openly and honestly about sex (she'd rather not know specifics, and vice-versa...but she did borrow a pair of handcuffs a few months ago that have yet to be returned) and she's less concerned with the dynamics of my relationships than whether or not I'm happy with my role in them. She does seem to prefer the fawning subby boyfriends who dote on me though...hmm, I think I'll call her and ask if she had any hopes that I'd wear the pants...
Speaking of wearing pants - or not - I once brought an androgynous gender-bending boyfriend over for Sunday dinner in full drag. I called ahead to make sure he'd be welcome, and she took it in stride. (I grew up with several gay 'uncles', one of whom is a former drag queen who's the same pant size as my mom and loves raiding her closet.) I don't think I could shake her up if I tried.

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RE: Apparently, my mother raised me to be a dominant woman - 4/10/2010 12:33:22 PM   
Lockit


Posts: 11292
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: aphatjohnson

quote:

WIITWD


OMG!!  Unusual conversations with mom?????  How about,........ "Your dad is really very assertive in bed.  He made me learn how to give him oral sex" ......  Mom, please tell me you didn't really just say that,......... I really don't want to go there!!!!!!  That's not a pretty picture, something I never want to think about. 



Yeah, my kids felt that way before they woke up and realized that is how they got here, mom wasn't all that crazy because it is fun and the more you learn about it from where ever and whomever, the better it can be. I am so glad they got over that! More importantly, they are glad and find mom a wealth of information and lots of laughs, much to their and their partner's joy.


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RE: Apparently, my mother raised me to be a dominant woman - 4/10/2010 1:16:44 PM   
LadyAngelika


Posts: 8070
Joined: 7/4/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lockit
I loved my mother very, very much, but she was a wimp.

[...]

I don't know where I got my moxie, but I am darn glad I did! In my family it was either meek unhappy women or true bitches. I ran from them all.


I think this is a something that happens when we decide we want to break the pattern. Thanks so much for sharing that story Lockit :-)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Tantriqu
And she just loves how courtly and attentive my men are, so she never notices that sometimes they prefer not to sit!


Yeah, my mom has often commented on the quality of the men that I date. She sees other women my age who date jerks and she says she thanks the lord every day that I'm not in one of those dynamics. I sometimes joke around and tell her it's not the lord she has to thank but herself!

quote:

because I live in Canada, I was never denied my place in academics or work because of my sex, and I was able to flourish


This is slightly off topic, but I live in Canada—not so far from you and also in a big city—and in the same age range as you and I wouldn't say that was a true statement in my experience. I think that in some fields that might be true, but I still feel that in many areas I had to work twice as hard to get there.

My mother is slightly older than my father, is more educated and makes more money then my father, in fact, at retirement she made double his salary. When we were young, my dad went back to University a few classes a week but otherwise was a stay at home dad with us. My mom built the strong career. My dad followed with a pretty awesome one.

So I had a really good role model.

quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer
My mother claims to have raised my sisters the same way, LA - but I've realised over the years that the way she defines words like 'dominant' and 'submissive' re men and women is a long way from the definitions assumed by even those self-identifying 'moderate' feminists of today. It's still further from the way those words are used by the BDSM community. Put it this way: she won't read Cosmopolitan magazine because she says she finds it 'too fierce'.


You are absolutely right Peon. And she wasn't talking about D/s in BDSM terms. My mom probably wouldn't react very well to know that I'm also a sadist—in fact I know she wouldn't because she doesn't understand why one person would want to hurt another. That said, she probably wouldn't read cosmo because she's too much of a prude, but not because it is too fierce.

The dominance and submission in my mother's concept has little to do with sex. It has to do with power.

quote:

ORIGINAL: aphatjohnson
OMG!!  Unusual conversations with mom?????  How about,........ "Your dad is really very assertive in bed.  He made me learn how to give him oral sex" ......  Mom, please tell me you didn't really just say that,......... I really don't want to go there!!!!!!  That's not a pretty picture, something I never want to think about. 


My mom would never tell me things like this. We can have good, honest open conversations about matters of the heart and about existential things and really get down to the core of things, but for her, like me, sex is a private thing.

quote:

I don't think I could shake her up if I tried.


As I mentioned, my mother is quite open minded. One of my best friends around 18-19 was a drag queen and he and I would get ready to go out in my parents house. She use to marvel at how lovely he looked, how well he pulled it off.

She tries really hard to be open minded and sometimes it isn't easy for her, but I actually know when she is making a huge effort. And as life goes by, she becomes more and more open minded. She's gone through a lot in the last 10-15 years and I think it really shook the foundation of a lot of the way she saw things. For example, she's a woman of very deep faith, considered becoming a nun, but she has detached herself from the Catholic church because of their hypocrisy and just finished a book on Islam and recently also read a book about Buddhism. To her, this is all extremely fascinating.

_____

Overall, all these answers have been quite fascinating so far and thank you for sharing them. I really do hope to read more.

- LA





< Message edited by LadyAngelika -- 4/10/2010 1:18:25 PM >

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RE: Apparently, my mother raised me to be a dominant woman - 4/10/2010 2:58:26 PM   
Tantriqu


Posts: 2026
Joined: 12/29/2006
Status: offline

quote:

because I live in Canada, I was never denied my place in academics or work because of my sex, and I was able to flourish


This is slightly off topic, but I live in Canada—not so far from you and also in a big city—and in the same age range as you and I wouldn't say that was a true statement in my experience. I think that in some fields that might be true, but I still feel that in many areas I had to work twice as hard to get there.




To be clear: we haven't achieved equality and we still have to work, think and shout harder to be taken as seriously as a middle-aged white man, but at least we're not living in a theocracy where what we do would result in my hand being chopped off and my lover executed, that there are no longer university quotas for females as there were in the 60's, and that my mail-order toys are only fondled by customs agents but not confiscated nor cause me to be arrested.
I think it will only be achieved when the word 'prick' is substituted for 'bitch', when Mother's Day gift suggestions include telescopes and kayaks, when teachers make as much as misogynists who chase a little white ball around a field, and when computer desks are built for the majority of users i.e., female average height of 5'4, not male at 5'9.

In the meantime, the generation following us has benefited from our living examples, just as we did from the women of the 60's, and part of why younger lovers are so lovely: they're simply used to having females in charge, and not just as nuns, mothers, whores or teachers. Boo ya!




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RE: Apparently, my mother raised me to be a dominant woman - 4/10/2010 3:14:18 PM   
slvemike4u


Posts: 17896
Joined: 1/15/2008
From: United States
Status: offline 		It had never occurred to me just how much I owe appreciation to the moms.I would ask You to thank her on behalf of all of us subbie men.....but that conversation might be a tad too awkward for You(not to mention I don't actually have permission to speak for all submissive men )

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RE: Apparently, my mother raised me to be a dominant woman - 4/10/2010 4:18:10 PM   
VaguelyCurious


Posts: 5264
Joined: 12/2/2009
From: United Kingdom
Status: offline 		Most of what I have learned from  my mother and my grandmother about interacting with people has to do with getting them to do what you want with the minimum expenditure of effort-there's a combination of smiles, lies and slight guilt-tripping that comes very easily to me as a result, but that I try at all costs to avoid using-you get whatever it is you want, but you don't feel great afterwards.

The only person my mother never pulls that stuff on is my dad-they have the most even-handed relationship of anyone I know, so I don't think any D/s ideas in my own life come from watching their relationship.

Thinking about it, it's not really possible to classify mum in D/s terms. She never submits, and she never dominates-she sidesteps all that, I suppose because fitting into a 'dynamic' with someone  is more effort than persuading them into doing whatever it is that she needs them to do.

So in this context I really don't feel that I've been shaped by her at all.


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RE: Apparently, my mother raised me to be a dominant woman - 4/10/2010 5:04:16 PM   
blmtrsne


Posts: 201
Joined: 6/29/2004
Status: offline 		I've been raised to obey my father, who luckely wasn't home all the time due to work issues. So, as long as I lived with my parents, a lot was possible as long as father did not know. I learned from him that your either sub or Dom. I prefer Dom. Lucky me.

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RE: Apparently, my mother raised me to be a dominant woman - 4/10/2010 5:30:29 PM   
LaTigresse


Posts: 26123
Joined: 1/15/2006
Status: offline 		My mother and I are not close. She now lives about 1,000 miles away. We never chat on the phone and I've only seen her approximately 3 times in the last decade. We get along okay when we are together, it is just that we have no relationship. What she taught me, is how not to be.

My mother taught me how not to have relationships, she taught me how not to be a mother, she taught me how not to be a grandmother, and most important of all, she taught me how not to abuse myself. My mother is miserable and makes others miserable. She wants others to solve the problems she creates, but will do nothing to help herself in any way. She prefers the company of societies unfortunate because their problems are a better focus for her than her own. While she often avoids her own family.

I feel so lucky to see what I see, to have the example I have.......but sad that it is at her, and my family's, expense. My mother has hurt a lot of people, including some really great men.

Her weaknesses taught me about my own strengths.

I know the above sounds horrible. Perhaps even like I am asking for sympathy or something along that line, but no, not at all. I am almost 48 and do not have any need for a mother figure. I have so many amazing and loving people in my life. Today I've been lucky to be in the physical company of 4 of them. I also visited with one, on the phone, that will soon be bringing a new little person into my life to love and adore. I have wonderful siblings, nieces and nephews. Fabulous children and grands. And all of the people, marriage has brought into our family.

By knowing my mother, I have a constant reminder of how wonderful my life really is.

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RE: Apparently, my mother raised me to be a dominant woman - 4/10/2010 5:33:29 PM   
Jeffff


Posts: 12600
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Status: offline 		For one... just one serious second, you and I could be siblings........




Which makes my dark thoughts even worse!

I told you it was just a second......  :)

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RE: Apparently, my mother raised me to be a dominant woman - 4/10/2010 5:47:02 PM   
PeonForHer


Posts: 19612
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Status: offline 		I think parents serve as examples to their kids of how not to do things far more often than either they, or their kids, would like to admit . . . .

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RE: Apparently, my mother raised me to be a dominant woman - 4/10/2010 5:57:07 PM   
Jeffff


Posts: 12600
Joined: 7/7/2007
Status: offline 		My father is the finest Man I have ever known.


My mother........ is Lat's

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RE: Apparently, my mother raised me to be a dominant woman - 4/10/2010 6:26:23 PM   
LadyAngelika


Posts: 8070
Joined: 7/4/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

It had never occurred to me just how much I owe appreciation to the moms.I would ask You to thank her on behalf of all of us subbie men.....but that conversation might be a tad too awkward for You(not to mention I don't actually have permission to speak for all submissive men )


Yes, and you'd freak my mom out. No freaking out my mom! ;-)

quote:

ORIGINAL: VaguelyCurious
Thinking about it, it's not really possible to classify mum in D/s terms. She never submits, and she never dominates-she sidesteps all that, I suppose because fitting into a 'dynamic' with someone  is more effort than persuading them into doing whatever it is that she needs them to do.

So in this context I really don't feel that I've been shaped by her at all.


I don't think of my parent's relationships in D/s terms neither. They have a really even handed relationship. But if I compare what my mom has compared to what many women of her generation have in terms of power, she has definitely worked consciously to have more. For you or I to chose to be dominant in our dynamics is a choice we have and it is easier for use to express that. I'm not sure she would have been a domme, but she definitely was limited in terms of men she could marry. The conversation was much longer and we laughed our heads off when she told me stories of men she dated who wanted her to submit.

My mom doesn't identify as a dominant woman. She identifies as a non-submissive woman.

quote:

ORIGINAL: blmtrsne
I've been raised to obey my father, who luckely wasn't home all the time due to work issues. So, as long as I lived with my parents, a lot was possible as long as father did not know. I learned from him that your either sub or Dom. I prefer Dom. Lucky me.


I don't feel lucky or unlucky that I'm dominant. I feel lucky that I know what I want and that I'm strong enough, regardless of the side of kneel, to be with partners who respect me.

quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse
Her weaknesses taught me about my own strengths.


I think that for strong women, we either had strong mothers who inspired us or not so strong mothers who inspired us to be something else.

- LA

<edited because apparently I'm Ms Typo today>


< Message edited by LadyAngelika -- 4/10/2010 7:18:33 PM >

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RE: Apparently, my mother raised me to be a dominant woman - 4/10/2010 7:03:10 PM   
slvemike4u


Posts: 17896
Joined: 1/15/2008
From: United States
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

My mother and I are not close. She now lives about 1,000 miles away. We never chat on the phone and I've only seen her approximately 3 times in the last decade. We get along okay when we are together, it is just that we have no relationship. What she taught me, is how not to be.

My mother taught me how not to have relationships, she taught me how not to be a mother, she taught me how not to be a grandmother, and most important of all, she taught me how not to abuse myself. My mother is miserable and makes others miserable. She wants others to solve the problems she creates, but will do nothing to help herself in any way. She prefers the company of societies unfortunate because their problems are a better focus for her than her own. While she often avoids her own family.

I feel so lucky to see what I see, to have the example I have.......but sad that it is at her, and my family's, expense. My mother has hurt a lot of people, including some really great men.

Her weaknesses taught me about my own strengths.

I know the above sounds horrible. Perhaps even like I am asking for sympathy or something along that line, but no, not at all. I am almost 48 and do not have any need for a mother figure. I have so many amazing and loving people in my life. Today I've been lucky to be in the physical company of 4 of them. I also visited with one, on the phone, that will soon be bringing a new little person into my life to love and adore. I have wonderful siblings, nieces and nephews. Fabulous children and grands. And all of the people, marriage has brought into our family.

By knowing my mother, I have a constant reminder of how wonderful my life really is.
Your mother sounds a lot like my late Dad....who taught me how not to be a father.
It's amazing to even contemplate it,but my son and I (and the relationship we enjoy)owe a hell of a lot to a drunk/drug addict,sexual predator and physical abuser....perhaps I shall go piss on his grave when I am next in New York.
Nah,I have far too much to do on my next trip....

_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4


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RE: Apparently, my mother raised me to be a dominant woman - 4/10/2010 7:05:29 PM   
slvemike4u


Posts: 17896
Joined: 1/15/2008
From: United States
Status: offline 		Now come on Lady Angelika....i could probably avoid freaking out Your mom...as long as we kept the exposure to a short,very short time frame ;-)

< Message edited by slvemike4u -- 4/10/2010 7:06:05 PM >

_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4


(in reply to slvemike4u)
Profile   Post #: 19
RE: Apparently, my mother raised me to be a dominant woman - 4/10/2010 8:01:05 PM   
LadyAngelika


Posts: 8070
Joined: 7/4/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

Now come on Lady Angelika....i could probably avoid freaking out Your mom...as long as we kept the exposure to a short,very short time frame ;-)


Gosh, she's actually pretty easy going. She just has these really strong boundaries when it comes to sharing personal information. I get that from her too. I can be a little more open here because of the anonymity as well as having also seen benefits of discussion of taboo topics.

- LA

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Une main de fer dans un gant de velours ~ An iron hand in a velvet glove

(in reply to slvemike4u)
Profile   Post #: 20
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