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ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika

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sorry for a bit of misunderstanding on my part in answering.

Gosh, my OP was pretty fuzzy, no need for apologies.

And as for you being a daredevil, I'm sure you can find a little daredevil costume and play one from time to time ;-)

- LA

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ORIGINAL: Wheldrake

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ORIGINAL: AAkasha
1) he's mostly vanilla, and kink is his 'flavor of the month' - he thinks this is the way a submissive should behave in order to be interesting prey
2) he's a fairly savvy manipulator and knows how to "make" women top him; he insists on being in control, and by manipulating the process and playing the "catch me if you can...oh you caught me..oh you didn't, I was faking!" he can be in control all the time
3) he desperately wants to be a submissive but he's terrified of being boring, so the pendulum swings back too far the other way. he tries to hard to be a brat because he doesn't want to appear 'easy.'
4) he's honestly conflicted about his desires to submit. 

I suspect there may be a couple of additional possibilities:

5) he enjoys the struggle and the sense of being overpowered more than he enjoys submission itself;
6) he needs to know, and periodically be reminded, that the woman he's submitting to is strong enough to overcome his resistance.

I'm only guessing, however, since I've never been very daredevilish myself. If I were going to be daredevilish, though, it would be mostly for reason (6).

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ORIGINAL: AquaticSub

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ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika

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sorry for a bit of misunderstanding on my part in answering.

Gosh, my OP was pretty fuzzy, no need for apologies.

And as for you being a daredevil, I'm sure you can find a little daredevil costume and play one from time to time ;-)

- LA

LOL

I just got out of my Batgirl costume actually!

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But I have a hard time picturing a long term dynamic where this struggle would be reoccurring.That would just simply get exhausting. In the past, the few experiences I've had with trying to take daredevil submissives to something more long term has resulted in a struggle and I've tended to stay away, thinking the hotness of the moment isn't worth the frustration that might ensue.

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ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika

Forgive me in advance if this post seems a little fuzzy, but my constant quest for understanding people's motivations and behaviours has me analysing something yet again.

Though I've met many before, I've recently had an influx of strong, socially dominant men (some simply socially dominant who want to be submissive to a woman, some switches, some actually Dominants), wanting me to make them obey. On a purely primal level, it is hot. I love the idea of the resistance play, the struggle and it awakens the huntress in me. I have nicknamed them daredevil submissives, as they seem to be daring me to overpower them.

But I have a hard time picturing a long term dynamic where this struggle would be reoccurring.That would just simply get exhausting. In the past, the few experiences I've had with trying to take daredevil submissives to something more long term has resulted in a struggle and I've tended to stay away, thinking the hotness of the moment isn't worth the frustration that might ensue.

I've talked about this before in the Ask A Mistress forum but I'm going to try another tangent and address this to the s-types here.

- Are you or have you ever been a daredevil submissive?
- When you do so, are you only looking for the thrill of the dynamic?
- Have you ever found yourself starting off like this and then wanting to offer your submission up more easily down the road?
- Was it a question of just finding the right person to do this with to start giving up the power voluntarily?

- LA

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I have a hard time picturing a long term dynamic where this struggle would be reoccurring

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- Are you or have you ever been a daredevil submissive?
- When you do so, are you only looking for the thrill of the dynamic?
- Have you ever found yourself starting off like this and then wanting to offer your submission up more easily down the road?
- Was it a question of just finding the right person to do this with to start giving up the power voluntarily?

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ORIGINAL: OrpheusAgonistes
Yeah.  Amen.  I've put people through this, and I've felt genuinely terrible about it.  It's an untenable dynamic.  It's an arrangement that's pretty much built to wind up wrapped around an Oleanthum tree like James Dean's Spyder.

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- Are you or have you ever been a daredevil submissive?

Ha ha.  I like the phrasing.  Like Senator McCarthy.

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I only feel alive when there are alarms going off in my head.  I need to push and test things, and I need to feel the struggle for superiority.  If you've dealt with this type enough, you're well aware of the "needs".  Making others aware of needs and urges and making certain those needs and urges are met is something that comes very naturally to the pathology.

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- When you do so, are you only looking for the thrill of the dynamic?

That's all I'm ever looking for.

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- Have you ever found yourself starting off like this and then wanting to offer your submission up more easily down the road?

A handful of times in the past decade or so, yes. The first time, when I was very young, the moment I expressed this desire, the girl got either bored or severely weirded out.  The whole gorgeous mess disintegrated in the matter of a few nights.  I went home and felt angsty, listened to Moz and Jarvis Cocker for a week or so and I was fine.  Still, a bummer.

One time, a woman felt too uncomfortable because she'd done "terrible things" to me in the course of playing around.  She couldn't reconcile herself to having a more mundane relationship with someone she'd tortured, even if the torture had been hot for both of us.  This has actually been a problem more than once, in the sense that I've been in a few relationships where a woman has had a hard time with the idea of going out to see a movie and grab some sushi with someone she has tied to a chair and &c.

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There have been a few other times when it felt like what I really needed was to know that the woman wanted me to be "more submissive" (I dislike that phrase, but I gotta use words).  I'm pretty sure I could have made the transition, but there was never any indication that was what she wanted.  I'm honest enough to add that this urge on my part may have been a manifestation to see a particular moment forced to its crisis.  It may have been the urge to be "broken" (again, gotta use words).  It may well have just been another way of upping the ante in my own head and this urge, too, may have passed.  But it felt real enough.

Basically, I believe the right dynamic with the right person over a sufficient span of time can transform and transfigure.  Sadly, I don't think this is easy or even likely.

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- Was it a question of just finding the right person to do this with to start giving up the power voluntarily?

Right person.  Right timing.  I still believe there's a way to get everything I want and a chance of finding someone else whose wants and urges are both compatible enough and strong enough that everything aligns. 

Several other people have made insightful and accurate points about the taxonomy of this particular genus and species. 

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A couple of questions it might be helpful to think about:

Have you thought about what this process would even look like?  Would there be a moment when he offered his head on a plate, John the Baptist style?  This is pretty much how I picture it (I've always been a fan of Salome) and it's the way most similarly inclined men I've spoken with about this picture it.  It's also probably the least likely course of events.  More likely, I think, it's gradual and the moment at which the relationship pivots will have come and gone long before either party realizes things have changed.  Pity.

Are you attracted to the "type" or are you also attracted to the process?  I'm sure you've taken into account that the person you're with at the end of the process will be different from the person you were with in the beginning.  Some luster is going to be lost because, unfortunately, changes that take place in private universes bleed out, at least a little, into interactions in the world at large.  He'll have lost something.  I know this phrase irritates a lot of people who will say "No no he gained his submissive gift," which is fine and dandy for some people.  But let me repeat, from a certain perspective, he's lost something.  Are you still going to want him when it's gone?

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This has been messy but hopefully not incoherent or banal.

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Do You think these leopards have changed their spots?

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Unfortunately changing my behavior took a lot of work on his part because by that point, my reactions were engrained in me.

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ORIGINAL: LadyAngelika

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Do You think these leopards have changed their spots?

That's the crux of the question. To be honest, I think I have outgrown the thrill of the daredevil submissive. What a relief! He's like the typical "bad boy" for Dommes. He doesn't really do anything but confuse us.

I was just sort of having some last reflections before closing the book on this I guess.

- LA

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Really? Do you actually feel bad about it? I'm asking because when I went through this with someone 5 years ago, when we ended things, he said he felt horrible about it, but I wasn't so sure if he felt horrible about his behaviour or that the relationship was over. I'm not really asking you to justify this, it just brought up a memory reading this bit.

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I know these needs well. To be honest, when they happen now and then, I find them fun, they even keep me on my toes and add a little spice. I guess there is a point where I need to know that the relationship is solid and that the struggle is akin to keeping it hot rather than feel like I'm really having to conquer him over and over again. I don't want it to have to feel like the relationship is like a high stakes game—I've actually had that feeling before.

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Also, were these women self-identified dominants or sadists before you met them? I'm just curious.

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These are good questions. To be honest with you, I think I'm less and less attracted to the ones that want to be conquered, but all the while attracted to those who are a challenge and don't give it up all that easily. I've always been attracted to men with high standards as that creates a challenge for me and feeds the slightly competitive, more than slightly overachiever side in me. So rather than "Catch me if you can', it is "You can catch me, but you must be this (make me feel this)".

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ORIGINAL: OrpheusAgonistes

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These are good questions. To be honest with you, I think I'm less and less attracted to the ones that want to be conquered, but all the while attracted to those who are a challenge and don't give it up all that easily. I've always been attracted to men with high standards as that creates a challenge for me and feeds the slightly competitive, more than slightly overachiever side in me. So rather than "Catch me if you can', it is "You can catch me, but you must be this (make me feel this)".

That should give you very reasonable odds of getting what you're looking for.  Being able to articulate the distinction is crucial.  I'm guessing the ability to tell the two types apart is probably the tricky part.

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ORIGINAL: AAkasha


On a side note, I wrote a story a year or two ago about this kind of a sub; ironically the story is called "Deconstructing Stephen." I posted it over in the Creative Writings section.  The situation I illustrated is one I could tolerate in certain doses but would never work, for me, as a long term dynamic.

http://www.collarchat.com/m_3159010/tm.htm


Akasha