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RE: safeword ,,,question, or confuseion... or well i ... - 4/14/2010 6:11:36 PM

Aileen1968

Posts: 6062
Joined: 12/12/2007
From: I miss Shore, New Jersey
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quote:

ORIGINAL: BreathandStone

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aileen1968
Dear lord...it's not like he continued to cut off her arm. He made her cum.

So it's the old "she had a physiological pleasure response, so it can't be rape" argument? I always liked that one.

I do believe that people can play/have sex/whatever without safewords in an ethical manner. But both parties have to agree to it first. If you specifically negotiate a scene with a person that involves an easy way to withdraw consent, and that person continues on without your consent? That's a problem. First, because it's sexual assault, pure and simple. Even if nobody loses a limb. Even if she isn't horribly damaged emotionally. Consent is fucking important in what we do, because it's the only thing that separates this from spousal abuse, serial rape, and common assault.

Second: I'm assuming that you and your man (not sure what you call him) have some sort of special bond. You're okay with him doing things to you that you might not accept from someone that you'd been on a few dates with. Why cheapen the trust you have in him by assuming that every submissive should give every dom she meets that same level of authority over her.

Third: ignoring a preexisting safeword says that he likes to step over boundaries. To me, someone who won't respect your limits is extremely dangerous, even if he doesn't have dismemberment fantasies.

Oh please. This was nothing even remotely close to rape. Not only did she cum, but she admits she wants to see him again.
She calls out her safeword because she panics. Panic is not rape or life threatening.
She was fucking close to cumming, called out her safeword (in my opinion in an instance where a safeword is not necessary) and he decided to keep at it until she came. Which she did. Is that soooo wrong? When did all of this become so sterile and politically correct?

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Post #: 21

RE: safeword ,,,question, or confuseion... or well i ... - 4/14/2010 6:21:27 PM

slo18

Posts: 125
Status: offline

first let me say thank you to everyone that has responded so far. everyones responces have given me a lot to think about and allowed to me to figure things out a little more though not compleatly and i think that is what i was looking for. i am one of those women that thinks best when responding to peoples statments or there questions and has a hard time thinking things though with out feed back when they are complicated. so the feed back has been very help full.

let me say i am 29 and have been in and out of the lifestyle since i was 21. i am normaly someone who is very hard nosed about safe words there are some people i have never had to use one with. and others that i have had to use one every time we have played. even when i have never had to use one it is always discussed and agreed on that red is my safe word and if i say red they agree to stop. if they dont then we dont play i think a large part of my confusion is that i dont want to stop seeing this man even though he did not stop when i shouted red. and trust me i did shout not just say not whisper not pant, SHOUT red.

also my husband isnt vanilla exactly, but he is completely non sexual at t his point in our marrage. he does how ever understand that i need sex. and allows me to find it outside of the marriage. i have already tried talking to him and working this out in my head useing him as a sounding board and he took the very hard line aproch of "he didnt follow though with a safe word he should be out" witch doesnt allow me much space to think ruminant and contemplate.

as SexySea guessed there is a history of molestation in my childhood and i have been in and out of theripy since i was 18 for it.sadly most of my theripists did not believe that orgasims were that big of a deal.

everything is on hold till i figure this out. at this point i do not feel i can trust my own judgment and until i feel differently i wont be playing with anyone. i do know i need to speak with him. but havent been able to. i do feel safe with him and that is part of the problem i shouldn't feel safe with someone that can not respect my safe word, and yet those that suggested he was doing the right thing by ignoring my safe word are not entirely wrong. i do not thing i would have ever been able to orgasim if he had not pushed me past that. i am not sure if it is emotonaly that i feel safer with him then with others, or if it something physical that he does that others do not.
also i never used the R word. i do not feel that he raped me, i do not feel that he violated me physicaly or sexualy but i do feel that he violated my trust, and yet i dont.
also i feel i should add that even with out a partner i am very sexual and play with toys, and enjoy my body. i love the way i react
as i said i am just very very confused., and i dont like it.

< Message edited by slo18 -- 4/14/2010 6:34:54 PM >

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Post #: 22

RE: safeword ,,,question, or confuseion... or well i do... - 4/14/2010 7:21:18 PM

Missokyst

Posts: 6041
Joined: 9/9/2006
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Umm... I think I had panic attacks for the first few months when I didn't know what the hell cumming was going to feel like. I didn't know what cumming was! Feeling that rush of blood, that wooshy sound in my head, the extreme heartrate, the wild pulse was terrifying! But... panic or not I pushed my way through a little bit at a time until I looked forward to the release of getting over the hump.
People panic way too much about panic attacks. I can tell you when I faint it calms me right down. The blood rush slows, the panic drops. Sometimes fearing that "little death" is what we fight, not the person or the play.

I do get panic attacks. It is not like suffocating but it is definitely a fight or flight response. If someone was planning to tie her up and harm her that would be one thing. But if you look at her post, SHE does not want to give up the guy that got her farther than even she could push herself.

quote:

ORIGINAL: lally2

you might be right - but have you ever seen someone having a panic attack. they cannot breath, its like theyre suffocating (actually i wonder if she might have some sort of asthma.. anyway) - now add being tied up while youre fighting to breathe, unless shes into breath play i dont see how that is going to be hot for her at all.

... sexysea she's not a kid, she's 29 and married to a 'nilla.

(in reply to lally2)

Post #: 23

RE: safeword ,,,question, or confuseion... or well i ... - 4/14/2010 7:29:16 PM

January

Posts: 891
Joined: 4/17/2004
Status: offline

Hi slo18,

It's sounds like you have a good plan. I'm glad you'll stay away from playtime until you've gotten your reactions figured out. I'm also relieved that your husband forbade you from seeing this Dom. I get the impression you think you need to contact this color-blind and/pr deaf character to gain understanding of yourself. Not true. Real bad idea.

Only YOU can sort out what happened and what you need. Maybe you'll decide you like forced seduction scenes. In which case you'll no longer be confused afterwards, and you sure won't be using a safeword during sex.

By the way, my comment about toys and your body wasn't intended to get you to simply enjoy your responses, which you say already know how to do. My suggestion was to take steps, do exercises, with the ultimate goal of masturbating yourself to orgasm.

January

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(in reply to slo18)

Post #: 24

RE: safeword ,,,question, or confuseion... or well i ... - 4/14/2010 8:01:11 PM

GraciousLady

Posts: 529
Joined: 7/7/2009
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This is in Ask A Master and I don't think one Master has spoken yet. Gentleman, care to give us a male opinion?

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Post #: 25

RE: safeword ,,,question, or confuseion... or well i ... - 4/14/2010 8:09:28 PM

GraciousLady

Posts: 529
Joined: 7/7/2009
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slo, do you have panic attacks in any other situation other than sexual ones? If not, I'm thinking mastering the fear during sex will help you deal with your past abuses. For me, and many who have panic attacks, mastering the fear and not giving it power is what brings about the end of fear and avoidence. I have been without a grand slam panic attack for many years now. It was well worth staring down my panic to get past it. I know it's easier said than done but it can't hurt you unless you let it.

(in reply to slo18)

Post #: 26

RE: safeword ,,,question, or confuseion... or well i ... - 4/14/2010 8:38:45 PM

slo18

Posts: 125
Status: offline

i have had bad fear responces while driveing but nothing i would call a panic attacks. those have always been in sexual situations

yes, my husband is a good man it has actualy taken alot off my mind for him to have made that desision for me and said no i cant see him again.

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Post #: 27

RE: safeword ,,,question, or confuseion... or well i ... - 4/15/2010 1:05:33 AM

dreamerdreaming

Posts: 2839
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Explain to him that you want to work with him because you do orgasm with him, but that he'll need to be able to take lots of time to reassure you, to include perhaps many times of slowing down and backing off, when you feel you need him to, and then building back up toward your climax. Since you do want to cum with him, knowing that he has this kind of patience with you should work well for you.

When you feel truly safe with him, you'll be so busy begging him for your orgasm that you won't be able to have a panic attack. Explain to him that once you've gotten to this point with him, then it will be yummy instead of scary for you, to be tied up or restrained for your "forced" orgasm. Tell him that you long for that day, and you are counting on him to have the patience that you'll need from him, to get there.

Once you are assured that he's on board with you, things should move along fairly quickly.

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(in reply to slo18)

Post #: 28

RE: safeword ,,,question, or confuseion... or well i ... - 4/15/2010 5:41:21 AM

crazyml

Posts: 5568
Joined: 7/3/2007
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GraciousLady, Aileen1968 - I agree with the core of the points you make (and make well).

Yes, in this situation, it seems like this chap used his judgement and made the right call. It seems like he did a good job of aftercare.

So I don't think the OP should run away, but I do have a bit of a bee in my bonnet about the integrity of safewords...

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aileen1968
Ha. He ignores my safeword all of the time and I'm still alive.

Which is a tribute to the relationship you have with Him. You're both very in tune, and He uses his judgement wisely - which is great.

But (without bigging your relationship up too much!) I'm not sure that all Doms, and all Dom/Sub relationships have that level of trust/understanding/insight.

quote:

Oh wait....I don't have a safeword. And I'm still alive. Imagine that.

Again, you and He have chosen well (because you're smart and experienced).

quote:

She was obviously giving him the go ahead to make her come when she had a panic attack so I don't see how this could be construed as a sexual assault.

The whole premise of a safeword is that it allows a Dominant to ignore "No" and "Stop!" and other expressions that a reasonable person would regard as the withdrawal of consent. If in nilla-land, you continue to have sex with someone after she's said "No" or "Stop" it's generally regarded as unambiguous. A defendent may try to claim that she didn't really mean "No" or "Stop" - but it's a really tough one (Esp in the UK and USA).

The addition of a safeword helps overcome this issue - But it also becomes far, far, less ambiguous.

So I have to disagree - I don't know how this could possibly not be construed as a sexual assault if it ever came to the police being involved.[blue text added after posting]

quote:

And it seems that he may have just done the right thing for her by paying no mind to her pleas to stop.

Yes, good point, well made; in this instance he made the right call - But I believe he placed himself right in the path of a longish prison sentence by doing so.

I would never, ever go past a safeword. Ever. Period. I would never do this for a couple of reasons - First - it absolutely and unambiguously places me in a perilous legal position and second if you're pushing boundaries and limits it's really important to have one certain way someone can bail out. If you can ignore a safeword then all certainty is gone.

I've been safeworded only a very few times, although subs have admitted that they were very close, or indeed that they wanted to but didn't want to disappoint. In all cases it was in the early stages of a relationship because I do my very best to pick up on a partner's state of mind as we play. If I back off because a partner either appears beyond her limit or actually safewords I may well have a good long chat with her about why she reached her limit... whether she should try to push it a little further.

quote:

Dear lord...it's not like he continued to cut off her arm. He made her cum.

I'm sure you didn't intend this to be interpreted this way but if "it's not like he cut off her arm" makes it ok in this situation, then is it ok to rape someone, aslong as you don't cut off their arm and she gets aroused?

What if I grabbed a total stranger's tits on the subway - Could I just tell the judge "C'mon, it's not as if I cut off her arm?" and "she was as wet as hell!

To the OP - I think you need to have a good long chat with this Dom. It seems that he's been able to connect in a way that others haven't (which is good), it seems that he either read you very very well or got very very lucky when he chose to ignore your safeword.

I'd suggest you talk about what it is that made him confident he could continue. Then talk about other ways you can push boundaries - for example, if you do safeword, perhaps he should be able to ask you to push the limits (perhaps by saying "push") - which is a signal that he understands your situation but believes you have more in you... then if you safword again, it stops.

I'd like to day the following to the Dom...

"Fair play to you man. It looks like you judged this right but you really need to find a different way of helping this young lady to extend her boundaries, because - if (and I hope it doesn't) it goes really wrong, you're placing yourself in a very difficult position"

[edited to add a clarification - edit shows as blue]

< Message edited by crazyml -- 4/15/2010 5:44:58 AM >

(in reply to Aileen1968)

Post #: 29

RE: safeword ,,,question, or confuseion... or well i ... - 4/15/2010 6:12:44 AM

kanina

Posts: 147
Joined: 11/19/2009
Status: offline

The OP should go to see sex therapist, it´s not normal to panic during sex...

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Post #: 30

RE: safeword ,,,question, or confuseion... or well i do... - 4/15/2010 7:09:21 AM

ownedbyPF

Posts: 126
Joined: 2/18/2010
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aileen1968

I found it hot that he said he was gonna tie her up.
Maybe the thought of someone actually dominating her and her having no control is what made her orgasm.
Once again...no real harm done.

What's the matter with you Aileen? Don't you know no one is actually supposed to Dominate someone around here... sheesh where have you been?

I've never had a safeword with Master... once I called one out we had heard somewhere as a joke. It kinda worked, he had to pause due to laughing.

As to the OP, this is really simple.. do you trust him? Do you trust that he is smart enough to know you, and your reactions thus far, to know when he really needs to stop? Not just when you think he does. Cuz obviously there's a difference in your situation. If you don't trust him then I don't know why you'd be with him in the first place.
~s

(in reply to Aileen1968)

Post #: 31

RE: safeword ,,,question, or confuseion... or well i ... - 4/15/2010 8:47:50 AM

Whiplashsmile4

Posts: 2305
Joined: 12/2/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aileen1968

quote:

ORIGINAL: BreathandStone

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aileen1968
Dear lord...it's not like he continued to cut off her arm. He made her cum.

So it's the old "she had a physiological pleasure response, so it can't be rape" argument? I always liked that one.

I do believe that people can play/have sex/whatever without safewords in an ethical manner. But both parties have to agree to it first. If you specifically negotiate a scene with a person that involves an easy way to withdraw consent, and that person continues on without your consent? That's a problem. First, because it's sexual assault, pure and simple. Even if nobody loses a limb. Even if she isn't horribly damaged emotionally. Consent is fucking important in what we do, because it's the only thing that separates this from spousal abuse, serial rape, and common assault.

Second: I'm assuming that you and your man (not sure what you call him) have some sort of special bond. You're okay with him doing things to you that you might not accept from someone that you'd been on a few dates with. Why cheapen the trust you have in him by assuming that every submissive should give every dom she meets that same level of authority over her.

Third: ignoring a preexisting safeword says that he likes to step over boundaries. To me, someone who won't respect your limits is extremely dangerous, even if he doesn't have dismemberment fantasies.

Oh please. This was nothing even remotely close to rape. Not only did she cum, but she admits she wants to see him again.
She calls out her safeword because she panics. Panic is not rape or life threatening.
She was fucking close to cumming, called out her safeword (in my opinion in an instance where a safeword is not necessary) and he decided to keep at it until she came. Which she did. Is that soooo wrong? When did all of this become so sterile and politically correct?

Aileen, I'm with you on this one! I see alot of people trying to paint the DOM out here in question as the Fucking Devil.. no real or true harm done, and she has this disire or urge to see him again. She's fighting around inside her head over some issues. This whole Extremely Dangerous concept is rather out there. There's nothing she shared that shows she was actually in any great danger. When it comes to limits! Some are okay to push past and other one's ain't. I'm having to remind myself that people's milage and experience and understanding varies.. (shaking my head in disbelief)...

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Post #: 32

RE: safeword ,,,question, or confuseion... or well i ... - 4/15/2010 11:10:36 AM

marie2

Posts: 1690
Joined: 11/4/2008
From: Jersey
Status: offline

Reply to OP:

A lot of people here don't have or want safewords, and that's all cool, but most of them have been in long term relationships where complete trust has already been long-established, and most I would imagine have enjoyed their "play" without incident of what you are experiencing here. So don't hold yourself up against the standards of others who may or may not have an understanding of what you in particular are going through. At any rate, what's right for one isn't necessarily right for another.

First of all this relationship is new, and you are still learning each other, second of all, what you're experiencing (with the panic and the orgasm) is new as well. I'm not going to judge the guy on the safeword bit and what he should or shouldn't have done. But if you are having a panic attack (for whatever the reason or cause), getting tied up will likely exacerbate it. Unless you actually crave and want the panic experience with the orgasm, you might want to consider getting that under control before moving onto being completely bound. In my opinion, that's the bigger issue of concern, and not so much about a safeword debate.

(in reply to Whiplashsmile4)

Post #: 33

RE: safeword ,,,question, or confuseion... or well i ... - 4/15/2010 11:14:09 AM

January

Posts: 891
Joined: 4/17/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Whiplashsmile4

I'm having to remind myself that people's milage and experience and understanding varies.. (shaking my head in disbelief)...

Not having much luck with that tolerance, I see.

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Post #: 34

RE: safeword ,,,question, or confuseion... or well i ... - 4/15/2010 11:56:34 AM

Whiplashsmile4

Posts: 2305
Joined: 12/2/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: January

quote:

ORIGINAL: Whiplashsmile4

I'm having to remind myself that people's milage and experience and understanding varies.. (shaking my head in disbelief)...

Not having much luck with that tolerance, I see.

LOL... I'm starting to wonder if tolerence is an over rated at times in it's politically correctness. Too much of any one thing can turn out to be a bad thing you know. Then again, the message boards threads are like a black hole, people sucking other people into things. lol

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Post #: 35

RE: safeword ,,,question, or confuseion... or well i ... - 4/15/2010 12:38:52 PM

lally2

Posts: 2621
Joined: 4/16/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: slo18

.i almost kicked this man in the face in my rush to get away. anyway once he got the message that red means red, he was very good about taking care of me and calming me down. but then he goes and says next time he plays with me he is going to tie me down so that i cant get away. i know that i should not see him again. i know that is the right thing to do . the problem is that i do wantt to see him again, primarily because he is the only person who has managed to make me cum, that includes myself. so yes i am very very confused and emotionaly torn . i dont even know if i am looking for an answer or just input

the above i think is the bit that people 'reacted' to and i would say understandably considering that she herself admits that she does not feel that she should see him again - reading that suggested to me that she felt unsafe and that the idea of being tied down was an issue. its only later in the thread that she says she does trust him.

im just saying it was a reasonable position to take on her behalf and one that she is addressing by not playing for a bit.

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Post #: 36

RE: safeword ,,,question, or confuseion... or well i ... - 4/15/2010 5:12:36 PM

DWCskitten

Posts: 199
Joined: 3/2/2010
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: slo18
i almost kicked this man in the face in my rush to get away. anyway once he got the message that red means red, he was very good about taking care of me and calming me down. but then he goes and says next time he plays with me he is going to tie me down so that i cant get away. i know that i should not see him again. i know that is the right thing to do. the problem is that i do want to see him again, primarily because he is the only person who has managed to make me cum, that includes myself.

Okay, first red flag is, (1)He ignored your safeword and plowed ahead anyway. i'm left wondering WHY did He ignore it? Yes, red DOES mean red. Is there any question? That's WHY we have safewords. Okay, second red flag: Also, even though He SAW you trying to get away, (2)He says next time He's going to tie you down so you CAN'T get away. Two broken trust issues here already. Knowing that, it's entirely up to you whether you leave or stay. i would leave.

Finally, maybe you would benefit from seeing some kind of counsellor to find out why you have such a hard time orgasming. You CAN orgasm, you've proven that to yourself because you've already done it, even if it's only with one Person. So maybe there are issues that, once they are worked out, you won't have such a hard time achieving it.

Good luck.

~kitten~

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Post #: 37

RE: safeword ,,,question, or confuseion... or well i ... - 4/15/2010 5:15:02 PM

Jeffff

Posts: 12600
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quote:

ORIGINAL: January

quote:

ORIGINAL: Whiplashsmile4

I'm having to remind myself that people's milage and experience and understanding varies.. (shaking my head in disbelief)...

Not having much luck with that tolerance, I see.

Tolerance is something we pretend to have as we type on these boards.

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(in reply to January)

Post #: 38

RE: safeword ,,,question, or confuseion... or well i ... - 4/15/2010 6:00:21 PM

VaguelyCurious

Posts: 5264
Joined: 12/2/2009
From: United Kingdom
Status: offline

Analytical breakdown time:

He ignored a safeword. Did this happen because:

1) he just got carried away? If so, he's unsafe.
2) he made a conscious decision to ignore you. If so, was his motivation:

a) selfishness-he didn't want to stop so he didn't stop? If so, he's unsafe.
b) a feeling that he knew what was good for you better than you did? If so, do you feel comfortable with the possibility that he might do so again in the future, bearing in mind that although he happened to be right this time he may not be next time?

    i) no-if so, consider him unsafe.
    ii) yes-if so, do you trust him to *always* make the right call as to whether or not to ignore your safeword?

      1) yes-if so, consider him safe.
      2) no-if so, do you trust him to realise that he has made the wrong call before he does any damage, and to provide enough aftercare when he makes the wrong call?

       a) no-if so, consider him unsafe.
       b) yes-if so, I've run out of reasons why you shouldn't consider him safe.

Obviously, this is all my opinion, but that's the best flow chart I can come up with.

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Post #: 39

RE: safeword ,,,question, or confuseion... or well i ... - 4/15/2010 6:08:43 PM

domiguy

Posts: 12952
Joined: 5/2/2006
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I have a panic attack every time I have an orgasm. What if some of that goop gets on me? eeeeeeeeeeeeeew!!!

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Post #: 40

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