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RE: read this please - 4/16/2010 3:39:31 PM   
truckinslave


Posts: 3897
Joined: 6/16/2004
Status: offline 		I thought of something else that points to the strong possibilty of incompetence rather than the abuse and conspiracy spun by the nation. Two words.
Major. Nidal. Hasan.

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 41
RE: read this please - 4/16/2010 5:25:24 PM   
sirbates


Posts: 18
Joined: 10/27/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: belladevine


I think that the way our government treats veterans is a disgrace.

This is only 1 example. There are too many examples for any one of them to be an exception.

Another group of soldiers suffering have been exposed to depleted uranium. There are entire platoons of deformed children.
They have severe birth defects because of there parents exposer to DU. The DU is used as heavy artillary to penetrate tanks and armored vehicles.

What I think is most disgraceful is that our knowledge about our government is also know throught the rest of the world.

How does this make our nation look?

We look like bullies, not to mention IDIOTS! We bomb other countries indiscriminently and we discriminate against our own countrymen.






Being one of those from "the rest of the world" (but now have our own IDIOT running this country) maybe a different perspective can help. There is a often used slogan that seems to be a noble and patriotic expression people use to show respect for armed forces at war. "Support our troops". How do we support our troops? The most common way people seem to feel they support the troops is to declare that the combat they are in is protecting us, spreading freedom, making the world safer for us. Well that is not supporting the troops it is supporting the politicians and the reasons that sent those we care about used as the tool to accomplish whatever is the actual goal is.

If we cared about our troops as much as we say then we should make sure there is a good reason and no other reasonable alternative to risk them and the people that live in the place they have been sent to make war. They are risking death, injury and a life altered forever because we allowed them to be in situations where they have major weapons in their hands and some kid or old lady that cannot communicate with is approaching them and may or may not have a bomb. Why is there always so much eagerness to go to war when history shows the outcome?

During the Vietnam war who do you believe cares about the troops and supported them. Was it the people who supported the mission and wanted to continue the war until victory or was it the people who protested for an end to the war and bring the troops back home?

(in reply to belladevine)
Profile   Post #: 42
RE: read this please - 4/16/2010 9:17:43 PM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: truckinslave
There's a lot of abuse of the VA by vets. Lifetime (evidently) disability payments for anyone who ever heard a shot fired in anger and tells the docs he has trouble sleeping, dislikes crowds, and gets angry quickly........

You're full of shit. I've got a PTSD diagnosis and am not on disablity of any kind. I volunteer to help those transitioning get the services they need and PTSD diagnosis' are rare and getting any sort of disabilty finding based on PTSD is even rarer. As a matter of fact it was only a couple of years ago that the VA found itself in a scandal because one of its senior mental heath practicioners was discouraging his subordinates from making appropriate PTSD diagnosis.
http://www.vawatchdog.org/10/nf10/nffeb10/nf020210-4.htm
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/05/16/politics/politico/thecrypt/main4103492.shtml

(in reply to truckinslave)
Profile   Post #: 43
RE: read this please - 4/16/2010 9:30:46 PM   
countrychick


Posts: 83
Joined: 11/30/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Silence8

Revolution, anyone?


I have a professor who has made the comment that the USA is basically set up perfectly for a revolution much in the way historical revolutions have gone down because of a lack of a monarchy that is the head of state to provide continuity and vision to the country.. maybe a little out there but maybe it holds some weight?

quote:

ORIGINAL: truckinslave
There's a lot of abuse of the VA by vets. Lifetime (evidently) disability payments for anyone who ever heard a shot fired in anger and tells the docs he has trouble sleeping, dislikes crowds, and gets angry quickly........


a lot of abuse would be entirely relative, but there is abuse of any social system put in place. Whether it be a system to provide food/shelter/medical care there will always be those who find a way to take advantage of the system, such is human nature. Similarly there will always be instances of people not being able to get the help they need because of inherent suspicions of people abusing the system. No system, no institution is ever perfect but the as a society we need to constantly work towards improving them.

(in reply to Silence8)
Profile   Post #: 44
RE: read this please - 4/17/2010 12:56:46 PM   
Brain


Posts: 3792
Joined: 2/14/2007
Status: offline 		This is just terrible! It is possible this may not be true as someone said but I think it is very unlikely. And I think it is very easy to prove it's true if it's properly investigated.

I don't trust people in authority so I believe it's true. I read a study several years ago where people in authority are more likely to lie than the other people who are not - it was a psychological study.

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 45
RE: read this please - 4/19/2010 3:03:23 AM   
truckinslave


Posts: 3897
Joined: 6/16/2004
Status: offline 		I have two family members getting PTSD disability payments. They both have good jobs; one is also getting his MA. My opinion is not based solely on personal experience. Here is a quote from a Seattle newspaper:

In 2004, $4.3 billion in PTSD disability payments were paid to 215,871 vets, according to an agency audit published in May. That far outstrips the VA's $2.4 billion annual budget for treating seriously mentally ill veterans.

The rest of the article is here.

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 46
RE: read this please - 4/19/2010 3:06:16 AM   
truckinslave


Posts: 3897
Joined: 6/16/2004
Status: offline
quote:

a lot of abuse would be entirely relative, but there is abuse of any social system put in place.


Exactly right, I think... the whole post. I was an MP/Investigator, so I tend to think negatively. TY

(in reply to countrychick)
Profile   Post #: 47
RE: read this please - 4/19/2010 9:04:53 AM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: truckinslave

I have two family members getting PTSD disability payments. They both have good jobs; one is also getting his MA. My opinion is not based solely on personal experience. Here is a quote from a Seattle newspaper:

In 2004, $4.3 billion in PTSD disability payments were paid to 215,871 vets, according to an agency audit published in May. That far outstrips the VA's $2.4 billion annual budget for treating seriously mentally ill veterans.

The rest of the article is here.

If you think your family members are defrauding taxpayers turn them in. Otherwise you're bitching because they have a legit mental health issue caused by their service and have gone through the lengthy and arcane procedure required to get the VA to acknowledge their comndition. If they aren't considerd to be 100% disabled then they are certainly allowed to work (and based on their disability percentage their disability pay may be low enough that they have to work in order to make neds meet).

As to the VA being grossly under funded to provide mental health care for vets, is this supposed to be a surprise? Attitudes like yours are one of the reasons the mental health budget of the VA can be shorted every year.

(in reply to truckinslave)
Profile   Post #: 48
RE: read this please - 4/19/2010 2:59:36 PM   
truckinslave


Posts: 3897
Joined: 6/16/2004
Status: offline 		Riiiiiiiiight. Tens of thousands of people drawing PTSD payments, no fraud.
It's attitudes like yours that create climates of rampant fraud and abuse.

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 49
RE: read this please - 4/19/2010 3:14:46 PM   
thompsonx


Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
Status: offline 		In 2004, $4.3 billion in PTSD disability payments were paid to 215,871 vets


That would be a single digit percentage of those who served in that conflict.
It works out to about $1500 per month.
I am sure you live on much less than that.

(in reply to truckinslave)
Profile   Post #: 50
RE: read this please - 4/19/2010 8:55:57 PM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: truckinslave

Riiiiiiiiight. Tens of thousands of people drawing PTSD payments, no fraud.
It's attitudes like yours that create climates of rampant fraud and abuse.

Where did I say there was no fraud and abuse? Didn't I suggest that if you knew of fraud to turn it in?

(in reply to truckinslave)
Profile   Post #: 51
RE: read this please - 4/19/2010 9:38:14 PM   
Termyn8or


Posts: 18681
Joined: 11/12/2005
Status: offline 		Ken, sorry but I am here. This fraud is a big problem. The few fuck it up for the many. It is the same with any form of entitlement. Even discarding the military issue for the moment, SS and disability are in about the same state. We had people who got an SS check for just being an alcoholic, but I do believe they put a stop to that. My mechanic is trying to get SS, I can't really say it's fraud because sometime when working on my car he had to stop, if you get paid by the hour you can't do that, and he only started working on cars because he couldn't hack a construction job anymore because of his back, and he has a valid diagnonsis. If he's running game I can't say.

Anytime something is offered, people will tend to take it. Now the guy in the OP sounds like he has some serious problems, half deaf and all. Actually getting shook up, well being a soldier that's the deal. But when it obliterates your eardrum it is permanent unless a really good surgeon pops up and rebuilds it. I knew someone who had their whole ear rebuilt by an ENT named Stoller. Stoller used tissue and bone fragments from his leg to actually construct the hammer, stirrup and all that, and connect the new eardrum to the cochlea so he could hear. I have no clue what such an intricate operation cost, but if he had insurance he certainly met his deductible, but really they probably considered it elective so his Parents (he was a youngin) probably paid out of pocket.

Then we have millions of families in the US who operate thusly - they don't get married, she doesn't put his name on the birth certificate. He works, possibly under the table and she goes on welfare chiefly for the free medical and then gets food stamps. I mean ALOT of people do this. She even gets better car insurance rates and he puts a different address on his licwnse so he is basically covered for free.

While the system is flawed, people actually caused the process to be somewhat adversarial. They will take whatever they can get. Say whatever you want about me but I have never taken a dime from the government. Not directly. Sure I drive on their roads and shit into their sewers, but I also paid cetain things. For example seven grand a year in taxes on cigarettes alone, thus helping to build a stupid baseball stadium which I have never been in.

I also know people who walk miles every day, but get a scooter chair on the taxpayer's money. Another who walked about a mile to the hospital because they couldn't breath (yeah right). I just don't drop dimes on people. I have changed, and I can't say I am happy with it. At one time I would shun people who take but don't really need, but after all that has happened with this bailout and all the coroprate welfare I've seen in life, I now say "take whatever you can get". One day even I might sign on the dotted line for something, and that is abhorrent to me.

But in all this I can't blame people all that much. They have been fucked so bad up the ass that the refusal of entitlement is no longer in my moral vocabulary. Fuck it, if you don't get it someone else will.

When people like me change their tune like that, I bet alot of others, no matter how proud, already have. And this will only serve to exaserbate the adversarial climate of those in need and those in deed. We have people who pat $15 to park downtown in their $15,000 Caddilac to go to the welfare office. In some cases their tennis shoes cost more than EVERY piece of clothing I am wearing.

I believe that this situation is at least in part responsible for the mess the soldier in your OP is in. The problem is not so much in using the system, that's what it's there for. The problem comes when people abuse the system. Example of the manifestations of this are repleat. Like the Woman who died in the ER waiting room, posted awhile back on this board. It is possible that she cried wolf one too many times. They ignored her pleas, thinking it was an act.

Wonder no longer why people think I am nucking futs.

T

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 52
RE: read this please - 4/22/2010 7:30:36 AM   
truckinslave


Posts: 3897
Joined: 6/16/2004
Status: offline
quote:

They are risking death, injury and a life altered forever because we allowed them to be in situations where they have major weapons in their hands


They have assumed these risks themselves because they believed in the wars we are fighting. Unless the military has gone to enlistments longer than six years, every member of the Armed Forces has joined/re-upped since 9-11.

(in reply to sirbates)
Profile   Post #: 53
RE: read this please - 4/22/2010 7:34:51 AM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		There were many that were unilaterally extended by the government  in the years since, you know. Made the papers and everything.

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


(in reply to truckinslave)
Profile   Post #: 54
RE: read this please - 4/22/2010 7:37:01 AM   
truckinslave


Posts: 3897
Joined: 6/16/2004
Status: offline 		Your math skills need some work. 21,000,000 vets of Iraq/Afghanistan? I don't think so. Given the ratio of rear-echelon to combat troops 210,000+ sounds high to me.

(in reply to thompsonx)
Profile   Post #: 55
RE: read this please - 4/22/2010 7:39:54 AM   
truckinslave


Posts: 3897
Joined: 6/16/2004
Status: offline 		Yes, that's true enough. But that was a limited number, and they were not given lifelong extensions. Is it still being done?

I'm sure you take my point.

(in reply to mnottertail)
Profile   Post #: 56
RE: read this please - 4/22/2010 9:51:51 AM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: truckinslave

Yes, that's true enough. But that was a limited number, and they were not given lifelong extensions. Is it still being done?

I'm sure you take my point.

No. I don't get your point. Is it that its ok for our brothers in arms to be screwed over because mental illness makes you feel icky? Or was it that discharging wounded soldiers on trumped up conditions allowing the US government to not fulfill its promises is a good thing?

(in reply to truckinslave)
Profile   Post #: 57
RE: read this please - 4/22/2010 11:10:42 AM   
thompsonx


Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: truckinslave

Your math skills need some work. 21,000,000 vets of Iraq/Afghanistan? I don't think so. Given the ratio of rear-echelon to combat troops 210,000+ sounds high to me.

9% of 21,000,000 =1.89 million
1% of 21,000,000=210,000
It would appear that it is your math skills that need a bit of help.

In 2004, $4.3 billion in PTSD disability payments were paid to 215,871 vets


quote:

That would be a single digit percentage of those who served in that conflict.
It works out to about $1500 per month.
I am sure you live on much less than that.
Did you forget about the 3.5 million VietNam vets.
Ten percent of 3.5 million is 350,000.
Perhaps you should put on your best George Patton suit and go down to the VA hospital and toss all of those fucking malingerers out on their pussy asses


(in reply to truckinslave)
Profile   Post #: 58
RE: read this please - 4/22/2010 11:14:17 AM   
thompsonx


Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: truckinslave

Yes, that's true enough. But that was a limited number, and they were not given lifelong extensions. Is it still being done?

I'm sure you take my point.


Do you always come to a discussion with so little knowledge of what you are talking about?
The armed services are not getting enough volunteers and the ones they are getting are the bottom of the barrel, this according to the general in charge of army recruit training.
Read up on the "stop loss" program where service people are involuntarily extended at the convenience of the government....yeah it happened in VietNam also.

(in reply to truckinslave)
Profile   Post #: 59
RE: read this please - 4/22/2010 12:17:16 PM   
Termyn8or


Posts: 18681
Joined: 11/12/2005
Status: offline 		I was just about to mention stop loss. Thanks for saving me the trouble.

T

(in reply to thompsonx)
Profile   Post #: 60
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