American and pregnant? Go to Italy, or Albania. (Full Version)

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mcbride -> American and pregnant? Go to Italy, or Albania. (4/14/2010 10:28:49 PM)


It's been weeks since one of my right wing pals here tried to explain that leaving health care to private companies who put profits above the lives of Americans is preferable to letting the gummint save those lives, and that the dismal, even criminal, performance of those companies in the United States in virtually every aspect of measurable health care outcomes is merely a statistical blip caused by banana mumble chicken, so I thought I might post the results of a major study reported by The Lancet.    

The study shows that the US is one of very, very few countries in which more mothers are dying in childbirth now than were dying in 1980.  Back then, the number was 12 mothers per 100,000 live births. Now it's 17.  Is that high?  Well, here's a list of countries where fewer mothers die in childbirth.

You can deliver your baby with less than a third the risk of actually dying by going to Italy, Sweden, and Australia. If less than half the risk is okay, you can go to Canada, Albania, Australia, New Zealand, the Czech Republic, Hungary, Poland, Slovakia...well, it's a long list. So here's where your chance of dying in childbirth (maternal mortality ratio per 100,000 live births by country, 2008) is less than in the US.

Albania
Australia
New Zealand
Austria
Belgium
Bulgaria
Croatia
Czech Republic
Denmark
Estonia
Finland
France
Germany
Greece
Hungary
Ireland
Italy
Latvia
Lithuania
Luxembourg
Malta
Netherlands
Poland
Portugal
Romania
Slovakia
Slovenia
Spain
Sweden
United Kingdom
Serbia
Taiwan
Japan
Singapore
South Korea
Qatar
United Arab Emirates

To see all the numbers, you'll have to register, for free. And then note that most of the countries above have less than half the risk American mothers face.

Okay, someone tell me why Ann Coulter says those mothers dying is okay.



Termyn8or -> RE: American and pregnant? Go to Italy, or Albania. (4/14/2010 10:37:36 PM)

Not taking this one to heart for two reasons.

1. Prenatal care and overall health. If you have deficiencies and physical problems which complicate pregnancy, it doesn't matter where you go. In the US we have among the poorest level of general health in the whole world.

2. This seems to ignore the fact that people had kids without hospitals. I have personally known people who were born on a kitchen table, or even in a speakeasy. Who said you need a doctor ?

T



mcbride -> RE: American and pregnant? Go to Italy, or Albania. (4/15/2010 12:00:49 AM)

Speakeasies. Yes. Absolutely. Because probably it wouldn't have occurred to any of those qualified to undertake an international study of maternal mortality that some births occur outside hospitals.  No, no.  And what they said in the methodology....they were probably kidding, huh?

But, if we accept your premise -- and really folks, who wouldnt? -- then surely we'll be dumb enough to believe that so many other industrialised countries have HALF the mortality rate because...a much, much smaller percentage of births in those countries and the US are outside hospitals?

Whew. You trickser, you.  This kinda wacky fun is exactly what I was hoping for. I can hardly wait for your evidence.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

Not taking this one to heart for two reasons.

1. Prenatal care and overall health. If you have deficiencies and physical problems which complicate pregnancy, it doesn't matter where you go. In the US we have among the poorest level of general health in the whole world.

2. This seems to ignore the fact that people had kids without hospitals. I have personally known people who were born on a kitchen table, or even in a speakeasy. Who said you need a doctor ?

T



pahunkboy -> RE: American and pregnant? Go to Italy, or Albania. (4/15/2010 3:40:41 AM)

Russia is planning to re-settle its northern territory- a brilliant idea- when picking it apart.



kittinSol -> RE: American and pregnant? Go to Italy, or Albania. (4/15/2010 4:43:20 AM)

With American obstetrics' love of interventions during birth (it seems like they don't like letting nature take its course) and their adoration of all things Caesar, it's not that surprising.



pahunkboy -> RE: American and pregnant? Go to Italy, or Albania. (4/15/2010 4:46:12 AM)

IMO they overly push c-sections.  Luckily my sister did not need one.   But- they would have-- 



kittinSol -> RE: American and pregnant? Go to Italy, or Albania. (4/15/2010 4:54:21 AM)

They do. They push everything that entails a medical intervention. They push epidurals, and as a result of the epidurals, they have to do episiotomies (you can't labour effectively if you don't feel anything). They push Caesarians, and as a result, women are at far greater risk than from a natural delivery.

Personally, the only person in attendance at my son's birth (apart from my then husband) was a dedicated and highly competent midwife who knew exactly how to help me manage my labour. Ultimately, the woman should be in charge of her own labour as much as possible. It's ironic, but in the case of obstetrics, less is often more.



tazzygirl -> RE: American and pregnant? Go to Italy, or Albania. (4/15/2010 5:02:52 AM)

Tsk tsk, kittin... this is what assuming gets you... the wrong information. you make it sound like these procedures are simply an American way of life.



kittinSol -> RE: American and pregnant? Go to Italy, or Albania. (4/15/2010 5:47:51 AM)

I'll refer you to this New York Times article :

"The Caesarean section rate in the United States reached 32 percent in 2007, the country’s highest rate ever, health officials are reporting. The rate has been climbing steadily since 1996, setting records year after year, and Caesarean section has become the most common operation in American hospitals. About 1.4 million Caesareans were performed in 2007, the latest year for which figures are available.

The increases — documented in a report published Tuesday — have caused debate and concern for years. When needed, a Caesarean can save the mother and her child from injury or death, but most experts doubt that one in three women need surgery to give birth. Critics say the operation is being performed too often, needlessly exposing women and babies to the risks of major surgery. The ideal rate is not known, but the World Health Organization and health agencies in the United States have suggested 15 percent.

[...]

The new report notes that Caesareans also pose a risk of surgical complications and are more likely than normal births to cause problems that put the mother back in the hospital and the infant in an intensive-care unit. The report states, “In addition to health and safety risks for mothers and newborns, hospital charges for a Caesarean delivery are almost double those for a vaginal delivery, imposing significant costs."

Fact is, birthing has become big business. And big business isn't into giving anything away for free: why have a woman give birth naturally when she can be chained to a monitoring system, probed and pricked, numbed and made into a passive instrument of delivery?



pahunkboy -> RE: American and pregnant? Go to Italy, or Albania. (4/15/2010 6:04:15 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

They do. They push everything that entails a medical intervention. They push epidurals, and as a result of the epidurals, they have to do episiotomies (you can't labour effectively if you don't feel anything). They push Caesarians, and as a result, women are at far greater risk than from a natural delivery.

Personally, the only person in attendance at my son's birth (apart from my then husband) was a dedicated and highly competent midwife who knew exactly how to help me manage my labour. Ultimately, the woman should be in charge of her own labour as much as possible. It's ironic, but in the case of obstetrics, less is often more.


I agree 100%.



kittinSol -> RE: American and pregnant? Go to Italy, or Albania. (4/15/2010 6:12:17 AM)

Not only are obstetrics over-medicalized, there's a broken system of access to healthcare which heightens the dangers of childbirth. We all know that healthcare is kind of broken, right?

In addition to the OP's Lancet article (The Lancet: I mean, we can't get a more respectable medical source than The Lancet), Amnesty International have found in a new report, published this year, and titled "Deadly Delivery", that : "(...) the likelihood of a woman's dying in childbirth in the U.S. is five times as great as in Greece, four times as great as in Germany and three times as great as in Spain. Every day in the U.S., more than two women die of pregnancy-related causes, with the maternal mortality ratio doubling from 6.6 deaths per 100,000 births in 1987 to 13.3 deaths per 100,000 births in 2006. (And as shocking as these figures are, Amnesty notes that the actual number of maternal deaths in the U.S. may be a lot higher, since there are no federal requirements to report these outcomes and since data collection at the state and local levels needs to be improved.) "In the U.S., we spend more than any country on health care, yet American women are at greater risk of dying from pregnancy-related causes than in 40 other countries," says Nan Strauss, the report's co-author, who spent two years investigating the issue of maternal mortality worldwide. "We thought that was scandalous.

[...]

According to Amnesty, which gathered data from many sources, including the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, approximately half of the pregnancy-related deaths in the U.S. are preventable, the result of systemic failures, including barriers to accessing care; inadequate, neglectful or discriminatory care; and overuse of risky interventions like inducing labor and delivering via cesarean section. "Women are not dying from complex, mysterious causes that we don't know how to treat," says Strauss. "Women are dying because it's a fragmented system, and they are not getting the comprehensive services that they need."

Time Magazine, March 2010.



pahunkboy -> RE: American and pregnant? Go to Italy, or Albania. (4/15/2010 6:18:02 AM)

Kit- this is why I beleive every person should participate in their medical care.



Kirata -> RE: American and pregnant? Go to Italy, or Albania. (4/15/2010 6:33:06 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

They push everything that entails a medical intervention. They push epidurals, and as a result of the epidurals, they have to do episiotomies (you can't labour effectively if you don't feel anything). They push Caesarians, and as a result, women are at far greater risk than from a natural delivery.

I watched a documentary once about the LeBoyer birthing method which, now, is over 30 years old. It was the most beautiful thing I ever saw. LeBoyer's book "changed the world," according to one reviewer. Except sadly, it didn't.

Birth Without Violence

K.



Sanity -> RE: American and pregnant? Go to Italy, or Albania. (4/15/2010 6:33:53 AM)


Per live birth? Aylee pointed out the problems with such statistics here.

So, the question that naturally follows is how does The Lancet account for the differences in the way live births are counted in the varying countries when putting those statistics together?



kittinSol -> RE: American and pregnant? Go to Italy, or Albania. (4/15/2010 6:39:34 AM)


Thanks for that, Kirata - must check it out :-) . I gave birth in a birthing pool, with the lights dimmed and soothing music being played, which sounds quite similar to what Leboyer advocated. It was, indeed, completely non-violent. No intervention whatsoever.

And... it was also completely free: thank you, NHS.



Sanity -> RE: American and pregnant? Go to Italy, or Albania. (4/15/2010 6:42:25 AM)


Taxpayers pay for NHS, kitten.

Only the air is free, unless you need some for your tires.



pahunkboy -> RE: American and pregnant? Go to Italy, or Albania. (4/15/2010 6:48:55 AM)

And not mention some here were hatched.



They were they were I say-!!!



kittinSol -> RE: American and pregnant? Go to Italy, or Albania. (4/15/2010 6:50:21 AM)

And it worked very well: I had no bill to pay after having the baby. I had already paid taxes, mind you, so it was only fair that I wasn't doubly-taxed for the privilege. Like you like to be :-) .




Sanity -> RE: American and pregnant? Go to Italy, or Albania. (4/15/2010 6:52:04 AM)


On further reflection, you even have to work for the air that you breathe.

A little bit.



kittinSol -> RE: American and pregnant? Go to Italy, or Albania. (4/15/2010 7:04:49 AM)

It's not called "labour" for nothing.




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