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RE: National Day of Prayer - 4/21/2010 7:28:11 AM   
GotSteel


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what do you mean by "relatively modern"?

(in reply to Kirata)
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RE: National Day of Prayer - 4/21/2010 7:28:41 AM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

what do you mean by "relatively modern"?

I mean, in Karen Armstrong's words...

We lost the art of interpreting the old tales of gods walking the earth, dead men striding out of tombs, or seas parting miraculously. We began to understand concepts such as faith, revelation, myth, mystery, and dogma in a way that would have been very surprising to our ancestors.

K.


< Message edited by Kirata -- 4/21/2010 7:37:35 AM >

(in reply to GotSteel)
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RE: National Day of Prayer - 4/21/2010 2:31:50 PM   
jlf1961


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I dont know if this fits into this topic, but Sarah Palin has said, in a speech to a religious group, that the founding fathers did not want church and state separated, "They were believers" in her words.

quote:

Americans United for Separation of Church and State and the Secular Coalition of America are criticizing former Alaska Gov. Sarah Palin for her belief that America has a Christian history.

"Lest anyone try to convince you that God should be separated from the state, our founding fathers, they were believers," Palin told a Christian womens' conference. "In Washington's farewell address, he wrote 'Of all the dispositions and habits that lead to political prosperity, religion, faith, morality are indispensible supports.'"


full story

< Message edited by jlf1961 -- 4/21/2010 2:34:29 PM >


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(in reply to Kirata)
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RE: National Day of Prayer - 4/21/2010 3:39:41 PM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

I dont know if this fits into this topic, but Sarah Palin has said, in a speech to a religious group, that the founding fathers did not want church and state separated, "They were believers" in her words.

That is a mischaracterization of what she said, per your own clip...

quote:

"Lest anyone try to convince you that God should be separated from the state, our founding fathers, they were believers," Palin told a Christian womens' conference.

Belief in a higher power or greater Providence, generally subsumed under the term "God," neither invokes nor implies the creeds and doctrines of any particular church or religion. Thus, Thomas Jefferson could write...

I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should "make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof," thus building a wall of separation between church and State.

And end his letter by saying...

I reciprocate your kind prayers for the protection and blessing of the common Father and Creator of man, and tender you for yourselves and your religious association, assurances of my high respect and esteem.

The establishment clause blocks any particular church or religion from cloaking itself in the power of the state, in order to assure, in Jefferson's words, that...

the legislative powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions

There is no logical and necessary connection between believing in a higher power or greater Providence, as many of the Founders certainly did, and disputing the separation of church and state.

K.


< Message edited by Kirata -- 4/21/2010 4:13:20 PM >

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RE: National Day of Prayer - 4/21/2010 6:38:50 PM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata
There is no logical and necessary connection between believing in a higher power or greater Providence, as many of the Founders certainly did, and disputing the separation of church and state.

K.[/font][/size]

I think that was a great post and wish more of us shared that sentiment.

(in reply to Kirata)
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RE: National Day of Prayer - 4/21/2010 6:44:14 PM   
mikeyOfGeorgia


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Seems a federal judge overturned the National Day of Prayer statute.

the link is here

(CNN) -- A federal judge on Thursday struck down the federal statute that established the National Day of Prayer, ruling that it violates the constitutional ban on government-backed religion.

"ts sole purpose is to encourage all citizens to engage in prayer, an inherently religious exercise that serves no secular function," a Wisconsin judge wrote in the ruling, referring to the 1952 law that created the National Day of Prayer.

"In this instance, the government has taken sides on a matter that must be left to individual conscience," wrote the judge, Barbara B. Crabb.


........

"The National Day of Prayer provides an opportunity for all Americans to pray voluntarily according to their own faith and does not promote any particular religion or form of religious observance," said Joel Oster, senior legal counsel for the Alliance Defense Fund.

Church-state separation groups, meanwhile, applauded the ruling.

"This decision is a tremendous victory for religious liberty," said the Rev. Barry W. Lynn, executive director of Americans United for Separation of Church and State. "Congress has no business telling Americans when or how to pray."

The Interfaith Alliance also welcomed the ruling. "Maintaining clear boundaries between religion and government only serves to strengthen both," said the group's president, the Rev. Welton Gaddy.

One constitutional scholar doubted the case would survive an appeal to a federal circuit court.

"Judges have never been absolutists in these establishment clause cases," said Douglas Laycock, a University of Michigan Law School professor specializing in religious liberties issues. "If they were they would to tell the president to stop issuing Thanksgiving proclamations and tell the Treasury Department to take 'In God We Trust' off our money."

The lawsuit against the Obama administration was brought by the Freedom From Religion Foundation, a group based in Madison, Wisconsin.


Im curious as to the thoughts from others on both sides of the proverbial pew.


religion has far too much power and i also find it hard to believe that there truly is a separation of church and state since everything that happens in this country pretty much has to be approved by the church (in secret, of course)

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RE: National Day of Prayer - 4/21/2010 7:54:27 PM   
tazzygirl


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ah, is that tin foil hat hot these days?

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RE: National Day of Prayer - 4/21/2010 8:01:14 PM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

what do you mean by "relatively modern"?

I mean, in Karen Armstrong's words...

We lost the art of interpreting the old tales of gods walking the earth, dead men striding out of tombs, or seas parting miraculously. We began to understand concepts such as faith, revelation, myth, mystery, and dogma in a way that would have been very surprising to our ancestors.

K.


That's a very pretty quote but I was actually looking for a date.

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RE: National Day of Prayer - 4/21/2010 8:32:54 PM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

That's a very pretty quote but I was actually looking for a date.

Augustine didn't take Genesis literally, and would think a modern fundamentalist a fool. Today we have the Creation Museum. Pick a date in-between, if you have to have one.

And, for that matter, any time of day you like while you're at it.

K.

(in reply to GotSteel)
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RE: National Day of Prayer - 4/21/2010 8:44:08 PM   
Silence8


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Blah fucking blah.

We could easily play the opposite game, and show how many otherwise respectful historical figures supported slavery, believed other 'races' inferior, etc. etc.

Both responses are flatly wrong. Yours and its inverse.

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RE: National Day of Prayer - 4/21/2010 8:54:38 PM   
Silence8


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

quote:

ORIGINAL: Silence8

I think Christianity (and most of the world religions) emerged originally as a response to the rise of long-distance anonymous trade, so-called market societies where the professional realm focused entirely on product, profit, and material gains for arguably the first time in human history. To counteract this, society developed a religious realm that ostensibly dealt only with the spiritual, non-material, metaphysical, etc., a sort of 'antidote' to material excesses.

In the case of America, the unprecedented cultural diversity and social distances only heightened this already existent effect.


Do you have any ... and I do mean any ... support for this theory of yours?

Firm



Glad you asked.

Here's a quote from a well-respected anthropologist David Graeber, from an article he did in Harper's in 2007, but which I only recently came across one a blog of some guy who liked the article enough to retype it out.

from a GREAT article http://www.sleepykid.org/blog/2007/01/13/army-of-altruists/ <-- MUST READ! This article is so true my eyes actually started watering upon reading. I'm not lying here; I was in a coffee shop at the time, and luckily I was facing the wall or else it would have been somewhat embarrassing.

Quote from the article:

First of all, I should make clear that I do not believe that either egoism or altruism is somehow inherent in human nature. Human motives are rarely that simple. Rather, egoism and altruism are ideas we have about human nature. Historically, one has tended to arise in response to the other. In the ancient world, for example, it is generally in the rimes and places that one sees the emergence of money and markets that one also sees the rise of world religions–Buddhism, Christianity, and Islam. If one sets aside a space and says, “Here you shall think only about acquiring material things for yourself,” then it is hardly surprising that before long someone else will set aside a countervailing space and declare, in effect: “Yes, but here we must contemplate the fact that the self, and material things, are ultimately unimportant.” It was these latter institutions, of course, that first developed our modern notions of charity.

Even today, when we operate outside the domain of the market or of religion, very few of our actions could be said to be motivated by anything so simple as untrammeled greed or utterly selfless generosity. When we are dealing not with strangers but with friends, relatives, or enemies, a much more complicated set of motivations will generally come into play: envy, solidarity, pride, self-destructive grief, loyalty, romantic obsession, resentment, spite, shame, conviviality, the anticipation of shared enjoyment, the desire to show up a rival, and so on, These are the motivations impelling the major dramas of our lives that great novelists like Tolstoy and Dostoevsky immortalize but that social theorists, for some reason, tend to ignore, if one travels to parts of the world where money and markets do not exist–say, to certain parts of New Guinea or Amazonia–such complicated webs of motivation are precisely what one still finds. In societies based around small communities, where almost everyone is either a friend, a relative, or an enemy of everyone else, the languages spoken tend even to lack words that correspond to “self-interest” or “altruism” but include very subtle vocabularies for describing envy, solidarity, pride, and the like. Their economic dealings with one another likewise tend to he based on much more subtle principles. Anthropologists have created a vast literature to try to fathom the dynamics of these apparently exotic “gift economies,” but if it seems odd to us to see, for instance, important men conniving with their cousins to finagle vast wealth, which they then present as gifts to bitter enemies in order to publicly humiliate them, it is because we are so used to operating inside impersonal markets that it never occurs to us to think how we would act if we had an economic system in which we treated people based on how we actually felt about them.

Nowadays, the work of destroying such ways of life is still often done by missionaries–representatives of those very world religions that originally sprang up in reaction to the market long ago. Missionaries, of course, are out to save souls; but they rarely interpret this to mean their role is simply to teach people to accept God and be more altruistic. Almost invariably, they end up trying to convince people to be more selfish and more altruistic at the same time. On the one hand, they set out to teach the “natives” proper work discipline, and try to get them involved with buying and rolling products on the market, so as to better their material lot. At the same time, they explain to them that ultimately, material things are unimportant, and lecture on the value of the higher things, such as selfless devotion to others.


< Message edited by Silence8 -- 4/21/2010 8:55:40 PM >

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RE: National Day of Prayer - 4/21/2010 9:04:00 PM   
Kirata


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From your excerpt...

I do not believe that either egoism or altruism is somehow inherent in human nature.

You should have stopped reading right there.

K.






< Message edited by Kirata -- 4/21/2010 9:06:48 PM >

(in reply to Silence8)
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RE: National Day of Prayer - 4/21/2010 9:18:09 PM   
Silence8


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


From your excerpt...

I do not believe that either egoism or altruism is somehow inherent in human nature.

You should have stopped reading right there.

K.




Why? It's a good thesis from a qualified source on human nature, if there ever were one.

The individual, throughout 99.99999999999% of human history was not the primary unit of society. Likely something like the clan or tribe was. That's a good indication that egoism or altruism cannot even make sense in this type of context; that is to say, you won't even find similar words!

The notion of 'every man for himself' combined with 'give back your excess!' is pathological------- at best.

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RE: National Day of Prayer - 4/21/2010 9:29:40 PM   
Silence8


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Silence8


quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


From your excerpt...

I do not believe that either egoism or altruism is somehow inherent in human nature.

You should have stopped reading right there.

K.




Why? It's a good thesis from a qualified source on human nature, if there ever were one.

The individual, throughout 99.99999999999% of human history was not the primary unit of society. Likely something like the clan or tribe was. That's a good indication that egoism or altruism cannot even make sense in this type of context; that is to say, you won't even find similar words!

The notion of 'every man for himself' combined with 'give back your excess!' is pathological------- at best.


Not to mention, I watched the whole TED video you posted. You could at least pretend you're not completely closed-minded.

More generally, progressives are through and through willing to 'work with' religion and religious people, but it's expected that these people and institutions at least pretend they're willing to engage in standard practices of reasoning.

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RE: National Day of Prayer - 4/22/2010 12:06:56 AM   
popeye1250


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Tazzy, "Judge" "Wisconsin."
Do you think she may be a lefty?
I don't like "religions" but if someone wants to pray I'm all for it!

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RE: National Day of Prayer - 4/22/2010 1:17:54 AM   
tazzygirl


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lol... who knows popeye. as others have pointed out, it will likely not hold up. i do find it amusing at the anger something like this imposes on those who decry belief of any kind.

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Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

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RE: National Day of Prayer - 4/22/2010 2:14:22 AM   
FirmhandKY


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David ... who?! 

oh, yeah ..... "David Graeber is an anthropologist and activist currently living ... "

Firm


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RE: National Day of Prayer - 4/22/2010 3:32:37 AM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

David ... who?!

oh, yeah ..... "David Graeber is an anthropologist and activist currently living ... "

Actually, he isn't "currently living" in New York City anymore, nor teaching at Yale, which declined the pleasure of keeping him on its staff....

David Rolfe Graeber (born 12 February 1961) is an American anthropologist and anarchist who currently holds the position of Reader in Social Anthropology at Goldsmiths, University of London. He was an associate professor of anthropology at Yale University, although Yale controversially declined to rehire him, and his term there ended in June 2007. Graeber has a history of social and political activism, including his role in protests against the World Economic Forum in New York City (2002) and membership in the labor union Industrial Workers of the World.

K.

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RE: National Day of Prayer - 4/22/2010 4:37:00 AM   
DomYngBlk


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The statute was put into play by politicians to pacify the great masses. Do you need to be reminded to pray? If so, then a legal statute probably is of little use.

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RE: National Day of Prayer - 4/22/2010 7:39:37 AM   
Silence8


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

David ... who?!

oh, yeah ..... "David Graeber is an anthropologist and activist currently living ... "

Actually, he isn't "currently living" in New York City anymore, nor teaching at Yale, which declined the pleasure of keeping him on its staff....

David Rolfe Graeber (born 12 February 1961) is an American anthropologist and anarchist who currently holds the position of Reader in Social Anthropology at Goldsmiths, University of London. He was an associate professor of anthropology at Yale University, although Yale controversially declined to rehire him, and his term there ended in June 2007. Graeber has a history of social and political activism, including his role in protests against the World Economic Forum in New York City (2002) and membership in the labor union Industrial Workers of the World.

K.


quote:

New Messages


I think it's cool, in fact, to be dismissed from Yale. It's almost similar to Sartre's refusing to accept the Nobel Peace Prize.

The fact of the matter is that you could never in a billion years even attend Yale, let alone work there.

Nice job of going after the individual and not the argument, though. I bet Jesus is proud.

I'm fairly convinced that even if there were some humanoid god-droid up in the clouds overseeing everything, He'd prefer me to the majority of his bigoted followers.

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