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RE: National Day of Prayer - 4/22/2010 7:42:12 AM   
Silence8


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY


David ... who?! 

oh, yeah ..... "David Graeber is an anthropologist and activist currently living ... "

Firm



You're a slave, through and through. And not even in the S/M sense. Go run off to master, little boy.

(in reply to FirmhandKY)
Profile   Post #: 61
RE: National Day of Prayer - 4/22/2010 8:22:39 AM   
tazzygirl


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quote:

I'm fairly convinced that even if there were some humanoid god-droid up in the clouds overseeing everything, He'd prefer me to the majority of his bigoted followers.


Your assumptions overflow yet again, as does your ego.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to Silence8)
Profile   Post #: 62
RE: National Day of Prayer - 4/22/2010 8:41:26 AM   
Silence8


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

quote:

I'm fairly convinced that even if there were some humanoid god-droid up in the clouds overseeing everything, He'd prefer me to the majority of his bigoted followers.


Your assumptions overflow yet again, as does your ego.


Yeah... I guess.

There's no argument there, so... I'm going back to the thread where the guy doesn't understand why using fried chicken in a campaign to fight cancer is ridiculous.

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 63
RE: National Day of Prayer - 4/22/2010 12:27:06 PM   
FirmhandKY


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Silence8


quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY


David ... who?! 

oh, yeah ..... "David Graeber is an anthropologist and activist currently living ... "

Firm



You're a slave, through and through. And not even in the S/M sense. Go run off to master, little boy.


I gave you a much better clue than this joker did.

I betcha didn't even google "Max Weber and capitalism" didja?

His thesis has been around a long time, and despite attempts to discredit it, the thesis has had legs for about 100 years. 

The Protestant Ethic and the Spirit of Capitalism

The Protestant Ethic and the Spirit of Capitalism is a book written by Max Weber, a German sociologist, economist, and politician, in 1904 and 1905 that began as a series of essays. The original edition was in German and has been released. Considered a founding text in economic sociology and sociology in general, the book was translated into English for the first time by Talcott Parsons and appeared in 1930.

In the book, Weber wrote that capitalism in northern Europe evolved when the Protestant (particularly Calvinist) ethic influenced large numbers of people to engage in work in the secular world, developing their own enterprises and engaging in trade and the accumulation of wealth for investment. In other words, the Protestant ethic was a force behind an unplanned and uncoordinated mass action that influenced the development of capitalism. This idea is also known as "the Weber thesis". Weber, however, rejected deterministic approaches, and presented the Protestant Ethic as merely one in a number of 'elective affinities' leading toward capitalist modernity. Weber's term Protestant work ethic has become very widely known. The work relates significantly to the cultural "rationalization" and so-called "disenchantment" which Weber associated with the modern West.
You can read the rest of the Wiki page for the summary.

The entire work is available here, if you want to really get into it.

Christianity.  Capitalism.  Inextricable linked.

Now some may have a better understanding of why so many anti-capitalists are also anti-Christians as well. 

I noticed it a long time ago.

Firm


_____________________________

Some people are just idiots.

(in reply to Silence8)
Profile   Post #: 64
RE: National Day of Prayer - 4/22/2010 2:07:26 PM   
rulemylife


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

Christianity.  Capitalism.  Inextricable linked.

Now some may have a better understanding of why so many anti-capitalists are also anti-Christians as well. 

I noticed it a long time ago.



You are so correct.

From the gospel according to Greenspan:

King James Bible, 2010 revised edition,

Greeenspan 21:12

And they come to Jerusalem: and Jesus went into the temple, and began to cast out them that could not afford to buy in the temple, and threw out those who had no money at the tables of the moneychangers, and those who were wasting the time of them that sold doves;

For Jesus knew that capitalism was the path to redemption in God our Father.





< Message edited by rulemylife -- 4/22/2010 2:10:47 PM >

(in reply to FirmhandKY)
Profile   Post #: 65
RE: National Day of Prayer - 4/22/2010 5:09:05 PM   
Kirata


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I can certainly see how the Protestant ethic -- the Protestant work ethic, to be specific -- helped capitalism to thrive, but I have reservations about the centrality of its role in capitalism's development.

As your clip puts it, "capitalism in northern Europe evolved when," not because of the Protestant ethic, and goes on to say that Weber himself, "presented [it] as merely one in a number of 'elective affinities' leading toward capitalist modernity."

In that regard, there was an article in the City Journal a while back that made a case for such an ethic being necessary to a capitalist economy if its potential for exploitation and excess is to be minimized.

K.

(in reply to FirmhandKY)
Profile   Post #: 66
RE: National Day of Prayer - 4/22/2010 6:08:10 PM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata
Augustine didn't take Genesis literally, and would think a modern fundamentalist a fool. K.[/font][/size]

Weren't the Jews stoning each other over extremely literal, knit-picky, word lawyerly positions on gods law prior to Augustine?

(in reply to Kirata)
Profile   Post #: 67
RE: National Day of Prayer - 4/22/2010 6:28:15 PM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

Weren't the Jews stoning each other over extremely literal, knit-picky, word lawyerly positions on gods law prior to Augustine?

Perhaps so, but I'm not sure what that would have to do with interpreting metaphor and allegory as fact.

K.

(in reply to GotSteel)
Profile   Post #: 68
RE: National Day of Prayer - 4/22/2010 6:59:00 PM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata
Perhaps so, but I'm not sure what that would have to do with interpreting metaphor and allegory as fact.
K.[/font][/size]

I was thinking specifically of the phrase "Remember the Sabbath day and keep it holy". I've always considered the literature on which forms of work should result in a death sentence on the Sabbath, such as the debate about whether or not one could safely tie their shoes to be a pretty clear example of loosing the meaning by paying to much attention to the words.

That's a decent example of fundamentalism being less than "relatively modern", wouldn't you say?

(in reply to Kirata)
Profile   Post #: 69
RE: National Day of Prayer - 4/22/2010 8:10:56 PM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

That's a decent example of fundamentalism being less than "relatively modern", wouldn't you say?

I take your point that obsessing over tying your shoes could be objected to as missing the heart of the matter. But in answer to your question, no. Where in that example is metaphor or allegory being interpreted as literal fact?

K.





< Message edited by Kirata -- 4/22/2010 8:11:59 PM >

(in reply to GotSteel)
Profile   Post #: 70
RE: National Day of Prayer - 4/22/2010 8:53:17 PM   
Silence8


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Joined: 11/2/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

Christianity.  Capitalism.  Inextricable linked.

Now some may have a better understanding of why so many anti-capitalists are also anti-Christians as well. 

I noticed it a long time ago.



You are so correct.

From the gospel according to Greenspan:

King James Bible, 2010 revised edition,

Greeenspan 21:12

And they come to Jerusalem: and Jesus went into the temple, and began to cast out them that could not afford to buy in the temple, and threw out those who had no money at the tables of the moneychangers, and those who were wasting the time of them that sold doves;

For Jesus knew that capitalism was the path to redemption in God our Father.




I'm not sure at the moment where I stand on Weber's thesis. Giovanni Arrighi and a few others seem to have dismissed it, but, yeah, you gotta write about something!

I know that a lot of what Jesus said regarding money is in fact pretty radical, even, gasp!, redistributive. (and not to bankers and the elite).

But I don't think Weber's thesis necessarily conflicts with Graeber's, who I want to deny is in any way a 'joker' because he supported labor unions at Yale, etc. Sometimes because you wouldn't expect it, liberal institutions are in fact more oppressive than their obviously oppressive corporate brethren.

(in reply to rulemylife)
Profile   Post #: 71
RE: National Day of Prayer - 4/22/2010 9:06:27 PM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata
I take your point that obsessing over tying your shoes could be objected to as missing the heart of the matter. But in answer to your question, no. Where in that example is metaphor or allegory being interpreted as literal fact?

K.[/font][/size]

Huh....I guess you think the ten commandment stories are supposed to be interpreted as literal fact instead of allegory.....I didn't see that coming.

(in reply to Kirata)
Profile   Post #: 72
RE: National Day of Prayer - 4/22/2010 9:31:06 PM   
LittleOdessa


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella

Christmas and Easter are national holidays that require companies to pay overtime, and they're pretty faith-specific. I find it amusing that this group goes after "National Day of Prayer" instead, which is something I've never heard of until today.


The company I work for (and it's a BIG one) doesn't give holiday pay for Easter or any other religious holiday. Though we do get it for Christmas.

(in reply to Elisabella)
Profile   Post #: 73
RE: National Day of Prayer - 4/22/2010 10:08:00 PM   
LittleOdessa


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Louve00
I'm all for seperation of church and state, but I'm not going to take the obsessive road over it all.  My question is how long has the gov't been telling us when to pray, how often, or to who?  


It may seem that there are those who are taking an "obsessive" road to it all, but you wouldn't be saying you're obsessive when you lose your job over a religious issue(be it being atheist or a religion people in that area or company don't agree with) or have a problem regarding children and religion(some states have laws set against atheists and those apart of religions they don't agree with, such as laws set against Satanists. Or adoption agencies won't allow children to be in the home of atheists or those who are apart of religions they don't agree with, and they get courts backing them in not allowing those adoptions.)

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,877155,00.html

(in reply to Louve00)
Profile   Post #: 74
RE: National Day of Prayer - 4/22/2010 10:17:54 PM   
Aylee


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LittleOdessa

quote:

ORIGINAL: Louve00
I'm all for seperation of church and state, but I'm not going to take the obsessive road over it all.  My question is how long has the gov't been telling us when to pray, how often, or to who?  


It may seem that there are those who are taking an "obsessive" road to it all, but you wouldn't be saying you're obsessive when you lose your job over a religious issue(be it being atheist or a religion people in that area or company don't agree with) or have a problem regarding children and religion(some states have laws set against atheists and those apart of religions they don't agree with, such as laws set against Satanists. Or adoption agencies won't allow children to be in the home of atheists or those who are apart of religions they don't agree with, and they get courts backing them in not allowing those adoptions.)

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,877155,00.html



Ummm. . . you do KNOW that article is from 1970, right?

_____________________________

Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam

I don’t always wgah’nagl fhtagn. But when I do, I ph’nglui mglw’nafh R’lyeh.

(in reply to LittleOdessa)
Profile   Post #: 75
RE: National Day of Prayer - 4/22/2010 10:18:34 PM   
tazzygirl


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Uh, honey, you do realize thats an article from 1970, yes?

Not only that, but the NJ Supreme Court overruled the lower courts opinion on matters of atheists adopting.

In any event, adoptions should be dealt with in a highly individualistic manner rather than on the basis of speculative and sweeping generalizations; they should not be denied because the applicants belong to a class which statistically shows a greater propensity for some unfortunate trait. To deny an adoption, the court must find evidence of that trait or find some other damaging evidence in the individual applicants. Applicants for the adoption of children stand before the judge as individuals and must be judged on their own merits.
Finally, the court appointed amicus curiae suggests that the likelihood that a child of nonbelievers will be ostracized serves as a valid secular reason for denying adoptions to them. Even assuming that nonbelievers are shunned by some elements of the populace, most minority groups suffer or in the past have suffered the same penalty. Yet, absent special circumstances, no one would contend that members of a minority group should be denied the opportunity to adopt a child on that basis.
One other point deserves mention. The concurring opinion finds our holding that religion may be a factor in adoption proceedings as objectionable on constitutional grounds as the trial court's holding that it may be the sole factor. That conclusion, of course, rests on the premise that the entire area of ethics and beliefs is irrelevant in adoption proceedings. If it is relevant, as we firmly believe it is, then questions concerning religion as it bears on ethics are not constitutionally forbidden because they serve a valid secular purpose. As stated above, such questions may be evidential of moral fitness to adopt in relation to how the applicants will conduct themselves as adopting parents.
In view of what we have said above, it is unnecessary for us to consider plaintiffs' further contentions that the trial court's decision denied both them and the child "E" equal protection and due process of law.
The judgment of the trial court is reversed. Since the sole ground for denying the adoption was the Burkes' beliefs regarding religion and it is clear from the record that they are otherwise fit, we grant the adoption in the exercise of our original jurisdiction.
See R. 2:10-5; In re Adoption by B, supra, 63 N.J. Super. at 104.
Judgment is entered in accordance with this opinion.


http://www.americanadoptions.com/adoption/article_view/article_id/2435?pg=1


< Message edited by tazzygirl -- 4/22/2010 10:31:13 PM >


_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to LittleOdessa)
Profile   Post #: 76
RE: National Day of Prayer - 4/22/2010 10:34:07 PM   
LittleOdessa


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The point was to show it happens. There ARE still laws like those around. I simply cannot find an article in a timely manner regarding child services taking children from homes of atheists or Satanists(saying they were devil worshipers). 

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 77
RE: National Day of Prayer - 4/22/2010 10:35:43 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
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Nor will you. See the post above you.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to LittleOdessa)
Profile   Post #: 78
RE: National Day of Prayer - 4/22/2010 11:02:03 PM   
LittleOdessa


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Joined: 2/15/2010
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I admit I cannot find a more recent article regarding failed adoptions due to religious issues or a current Satanic Ritual Abuse news article, but there are those of us who do fear our children being taken away should the wrong person find out what religion(or lack there-of) we take part in.

I see though you have no problem with the comment about a person losing their job over such things.

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 79
RE: National Day of Prayer - 4/23/2010 6:24:14 AM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

I guess you think the ten commandment stories are supposed to be interpreted as literal fact instead of allegory...

You do, eh? Well that's an interesting "guess" given that the post of yours to which I was replying wasn't about the "ten commandments stories" and didn't even mention them. The question I asked was where in the actual content of your post is metaphor or allegory being interpreted as literal fact. If you want to argue that rabbinical debate over the content of the commandments equates to a literal belief in the stories of how Moses received them, I'll get some popcorn.

K.




< Message edited by Kirata -- 4/23/2010 6:28:46 AM >

(in reply to GotSteel)
Profile   Post #: 80
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