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Massive surprise swing in United Kingdom General Electi... - 4/19/2010 9:49:21 AM   
DCWoody


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A bit of background.....there are ~12 parties in UK parliament, depending how you count it...and universally expected to be even more split after this election (May 6th FYI), however....the big 3 nationally are Labour (current government, center left economics(by british standards) authoritarian(by british standards)) Conservative (previous government, center right economics, authoritarian) and the Liberal Democrats (alliance of mostly left but some right wing economics, brought together by interest in liberty).


For a couple of years, the polling has shown cons clearly in the lead over labour, with libs a far third.....the Liberal party hasn't been in government, for ~100 years, neither has it been the 2nd placed party.

For the last 6 months or so, approaching the election, cons were polling high 30s, labour low 30s, libs high teens.

Conservative supporters were hoping for a roughly 40/30/20 picture, leading to comfortable conservative majority in the house of commons. Labour supporters were hoping cons would fall to mid 30s and they'd rise to mid 30s, leading to labour victory.....Libs were just hoping to hang on to the 22% achieved in 2005....when they gained a considerable boost by being the only main party to oppose the Iraq war.

On 14th of April, yougov (very accurate firm) showed a picture of
Cons 41, labour 32, libs 18.

All the parties released their manifesto, official policies, etc...about then...and suddenly two polls came out showing
Cons 37, Labour 31, liberal 22
and then
Cons 34, Labour 29, liberal 27

27 being far higher than libs have scored in any election for ~100 years.

Then there was a 3-way televised debate between the leaders
Polls since then have shown (in date order)
Cons 33, Labour 28, liberal 30
Cons 31, Labour 27, liberal 29
Cons 31, Labour 28, liberal 32
Cons 33, Labour 30, liberal 29
and yesterday from yougov
Cons 32, Labour 26, liberal 33


Thats a 15 POINT GAIN IN 4 DAYS, putting the Lib-dems in the lead, having taken points roughly equally from cons & labour. The completely unexpected change has made all the previous calculators for how this will translate to seats in the real world* unrealiable, and when cons were looking like an easy win, now nobody has a clue....with as many as 5 possible Prime Ministers you wouldn't bet your house against now.

Gonna be an interesting few weeks to say the least....


*roughly speaking labour have a ~5 point advantage % to seats over cons, due to geographically concentrated support and out of date boundaries, and cons have ~5% advantage over libs, due to geographically concentrated support......in theory labour could win with just over 30%, cons would need ~35% at least, and libs ~40%.....in practice, it depends massively what the other parties get, and we're in uncharted waters here....
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RE: Massive surprise swing in United Kingdom General El... - 4/19/2010 11:09:31 AM   
LadyEllen


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Interesting how Brown and Cameron are now running scared of Clegg; last week he was irrelevant, now he is the abiding focus of their ire.

E

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RE: Massive surprise swing in United Kingdom General El... - 4/19/2010 11:14:11 AM   
DCWoody


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"I agree with Nick" is fast becoming a meme. Next debate'll be interesting, doubt gordon'll agree with him again....but if they both lay into him it could backfire, brown somewhat seen as desperate to hang onto power, cameron as saying anything that'll get him power...

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RE: Massive surprise swing in United Kingdom General El... - 4/19/2010 11:19:56 AM   
LadyEllen


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Cameron's TV ad this evening is enough to make me want to vomit

E

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RE: Massive surprise swing in United Kingdom General El... - 4/19/2010 11:29:58 AM   
vincentML


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I hear this was the first televised debate between the principals ever held in UK. Wonder if that is true and what the long term impact will be on your politics.

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RE: Massive surprise swing in United Kingdom General El... - 4/19/2010 11:41:58 AM   
DCWoody


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It is, and.....tricky to say.
There's something of an argument going on about electoral reform, the current system elects individual MPs in ~650 separate elections, but the parties behave as if it's one united election for their leader.
If the system is changed to proportional representation (as the lib-dems want), leader debates would certainly be a good thing.....with the current system, where party politics and individual seat politics clash and mix....I don't think it'll be a good idea in the long term.

IMO what we need is a system to wittle down the partisan side of individual MP elections, and provide for PR somewhere else....possibly switching to AV for MP constituencies (and ideally holding them at different times, to reinforce judgement on individual candidates rather than parties, and encourage independants), and using national PR to elect the house of lords (another problem solved) would be a good way to do it.

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RE: Massive surprise swing in United Kingdom General El... - 4/19/2010 11:54:26 AM   
vincentML


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Inform me on meaning of AV and PR if you will Woody and how could you have elections out of time if your PM and his/her cabinet are dependent on Parliament organizing vote? Also won't history and tradition inevitably trump structural change? In other words, aren't you in UK and we in US doomed to live with the system we have?

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RE: Massive surprise swing in United Kingdom General El... - 4/19/2010 12:01:45 PM   
DCWoody


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AV=alternative vote.....or first alternative vote, or alternative vote plus.....lots of variations on basically the same idea


We currently use FPTP - first past the post...straight vote, most votes win.....so a candidate can win on 20% of the vote......
under AV, voters choose a 2nd (and third etc) choice.....if no candidate gets more than 50%, the candidate with least votes is eliminated, and his/her voters 2nd choice is taken into account. Keep eliminating the candidate in last place until someone has more than 50%. It gets rid of the 'if you vote for candidate A you'll let evil candidate C in, so you must vote for me, B, even though you'd prefer A' argument.


PR-Proportional representation, national vote for parties....each party wins % of seats equivalent to the % of vote it gets....my objections with this is the voting for a party not an individual part, and the lack of any tie to a geographic area.


And lastly....not really, UK constitution is extremely flexible, there's been quite a lot of reform already under this labour govt.

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RE: Massive surprise swing in United Kingdom General El... - 4/19/2010 12:07:12 PM   
DCWoody


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Oh and when I said elections held at different times....we already do it when an MP dies or whatever....the new winner of that constituency simply joins in half way through....if the balance of support changes too much (or enough, depending on your view), the PM can get voted out ya....it's how Brown got the job, Blair won in 2005, but parliament kicked him out in favour of Brown after a couple of years....
My (basic) idea would be to simply not have the PM dissolve the house of commons, but having each individual MP decide (within 5 years of being elected) when their constituency election happens.

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RE: Massive surprise swing in United Kingdom General El... - 4/19/2010 12:13:35 PM   
vincentML


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Does that not leave too much power in the hands of the MP? Deciding when he/she is ready to face the constituency? As you prbly know we (US) vote our Lower House every two years along with one-third of our Senate. However, the unhappy consequence of that is that our Pols are forever whoring for campaign contributions since we do not provide public financing and now especially since our Court has ruled that Corporations may spend freely to influence elections since as "persons" they enjoy full free political speech.

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RE: Massive surprise swing in United Kingdom General El... - 4/19/2010 12:19:22 PM   
DCWoody


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Well as it is now it's the choice of the PM, doesn't really seem to help them too much, if anything speculation about when they'll call it can hurt them....Brown was/is accused of bottling it in '07....delaying it until the last possible moment (although waiting the full 5 years is the standard really).....as 5 years is the max, the only choice they can make is to have the vote sooner, so....

The main result is that elections are usually held in the spring, incumbent trying to take advantage of feel good factor. But nobody minds, the nice weather does the turn out good....summer there could be lightning storms, autumn & winter could be chucking it down/freezing.

< Message edited by DCWoody -- 4/19/2010 12:20:26 PM >

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RE: Massive surprise swing in United Kingdom General El... - 4/19/2010 12:34:39 PM   
vincentML


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Ah, interesting. Thank you for the insights, Woody.

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RE: Massive surprise swing in United Kingdom General El... - 4/19/2010 12:47:35 PM   
FullCircle


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FRFRFR

I'm not a fan of these TV debates, seems to benefit those that have an interest in style over substance.

You'd think the owner of a PR company would do better.

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RE: Massive surprise swing in United Kingdom General El... - 4/19/2010 2:41:32 PM   
Aneirin


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On the contrary, I find this public exposure of those who wish to govern us useful, they are no longer names with an occaisional face on a billboard, but real people, all of them together, and for a change, being relatively civil with each other, which is not the case when one watches prime ministers question time, where they are being uncivil to each other as part of the inter party relations. Personally, I would like to see the heckling and murmuring stopped, because it does not inspire a lot of confidence in those who are there to govern this country.

Yes, I am aware the leaders have had a lot of polishing of their public persona, how to appear through body language etc, but when the stress is on, more often than not the true nature of a person becomes apparent, and yet they still for their own sakes have to be civil. A challenge for them, but anyone who wants to be the leader of this country,needs to be tested, and by these televised interviews, the voting public for the first time gets a better insight into the person.


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RE: Massive surprise swing in United Kingdom General El... - 4/19/2010 3:00:24 PM   
NorthernGent


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Personally...I didn't think Clegg was the better of the 3 at all....I thought Brown won it. To me...he was the one with a bit of steel.

I've been weighing this up during the past few days and have come to the conclusion that I'll vote tactically....anyone to stop the conservatives. After watching Cameron the other night......and then watching Osborne......it's revived a few old passions......same old conservatives.....shouldn't be let out of the stock cupboard of a privileged effete public school....let alone get anywhere near running the country.

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RE: Massive surprise swing in United Kingdom General El... - 4/19/2010 3:20:19 PM   
DCWoody


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People tend to think the person they already support won it aye.....polling straight after the thing showed clegg winning according to most, brown second ('it's not question time, it's answer time, david') with cameron coming in last.

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RE: Massive surprise swing in United Kingdom General El... - 4/19/2010 3:26:14 PM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DCWoody

People tend to think the person they already support won it aye.....polling straight after the thing showed clegg winning according to most, brown second ('it's not question time, it's answer time, david') with cameron coming in last.



Not this person. The only way I'll be voting Labour is tactically....Labour aren't my first choice but I'll vote for them if it means keeping the conservatives out of government.

Looking at the three of them....I feel both Clegg and Cameron are light weight...and Brown is the more serious of the three....but that ain't saying much...when you're up against Call Me Dave.

Let's be honest.....it's all a bit of a joke....and the only reason we're treating Clegg like a breath of fresh air is not because he's good....but because most of us are sick and tired of the entrenched two party system which is nothing more than an extension of public school boy debating competitions.

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RE: Massive surprise swing in United Kingdom General El... - 4/19/2010 3:31:47 PM   
DCWoody


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I suspect at least some people think Clegg's good, but you certainly got the rest right.

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RE: Massive surprise swing in United Kingdom General El... - 4/19/2010 4:14:23 PM   
kdsub


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You Brits are lucky...I wish we had more than two parties so we could break this deadlock here in the States... I really can't stand the Tea Party but I wish they would form a third party just so we could get something done here.

Butch


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RE: Massive surprise swing in United Kingdom General El... - 4/19/2010 4:24:50 PM   
DCWoody


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As I understand it, if no party gets a majority of the electoral college, house of representatives decides the president.....so two party politics is the only option really.

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