Concession Of England To The Pope. 1213 (Full Version)

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Real0ne -> Concession Of England To The Pope. 1213 (4/19/2010 3:54:31 PM)


Oh how sweeeeeeet it is!



John, by the grace of God, king of England, lord of Ireland, duke of Normandy and Aquitaine, count of Anjou, to all the faithful of Christ who shall look upon this pre. sent charter, greeting.


We wish it to be known to all of you, through this our charter, furnished with our seal, that inasmuch as we had offended in many ways God and our mother the holy church, and in consequence ar known to have very, much needed the divine mercy, and can not offer anything worthy for making due satisfaction to God and to the church unless we humiliate ourselves and our kingdoms:-we, wishing to humiliate ourselves for Him who humiliated Himself for us unto death, the grace of the Holy Spirit inspiring, not induced by force or compelled by fear, but of our own good and spontaneous will and by the common counsel of our barons, do offer and freely concede to God and His holy apostles Peter and Paul and to our mother the holy Roman church, and to our lord pope Innocent and to his Catholic successors, the whole kingdom of England and the whole kingdom Ireland, with all their rights and appurtenances, for the. remission of our own sins and of those of our whole race as well for the living as for the dead; and now receiving and holding them, as it were a vassal, from God and the Roman church, in the presence of that prudent man Pandulph, subdeacon and of the household of the lord pope, we perform and swear fealty for them to him our aforesaid lord pope Innocent, and his catbolic successors and the Roman church, according to the form appended; and in the presence of the lord pope, if we shall be able to come before him, we shall do liege homage to him; binding our successors aid our heirs by our wife forever, in -similar manner to perform fealty and show homage to him who shall be chief pontiff at that time, and to the Roman church without demur. As a sign, moreover, of this our on we will and establish perpetual obligation and concession we will establish that from the proper and especial revenues of our aforesaid kingdoms, for all the service and customs which we ought to render for them, saving in all things the penny of St. Peter, the Roman church shall receive yearly a thousand marks sterling, namely at the feast of St. Michael five hundred marks, and at Easter five hundred marks-seven hundred, namely, for the kingdom of England, and three hundred for the kingdom of Ireland-saving to us and to our heirs our rights, liberties and regalia; all of which things, as they have been described above, we wish to have perpetually valid and firm; and we bind ourselves and our successors not to act counter to them. And if we or any one of our successors shall presume to attempt this, whoever he be, unless being duly warned he come to his kingdom, and this senses, be shall lose his right to the kingdom, and this charter of our obligation and concession shall always remain firm.


Form of the oath of fealty

I, John, by the grace of God, 'king of England and lord of Ireland, from this hour forth will be faithful to God and St, Peter and the Roman church and my lord pope Innocent and his Successors who are ordained in a Catholic manner: I shall not bring it about by deed, word, consent or counsel, that they lose life or members or be taken captive, I will impede their being harmed if I know of it, and will cause harm to be removed from them if I shall be able: otherwise as quickly as I can I will intimate it or tell of it to such persons as I believe for certain will inform them. Any counsel which they entrust to me through themselves or through their envoys or through their letters, I will keep secret, nor will I knowingly disclose it to anyone to their harm. I will aid to the best of my ability in holding and defending against all men the patrimony of St. Peter, and especially the kingdom of England and the kingdom of Ireland. So may God and these holy Gospels aid me.


I myself bearing witness in the house of the Knights Templars near Dover, in the presence of master H., archbishop of Dublin; master J., bishop of Norwich; G., the son of Peter count of Essex, our justice; W., count of Salisbury, our brother; W. Marshall, count of Pembroke; R., count of Boulogne; W., count of Warren; S., count of Winchester; W., cuunt of Arundel; W., count of Ferrieres; W, Briwer; Peter, son of Herbert; Warin, son of Gerold; on the 15th day of May, in the 14th year of our reign.


from. Stubb's Charters, p. 284, translated in Ernest F. Henderson, , Select Historical Documents of the Middle Ages, (London: George Bell, 1910), pp. 430-431



This text is part of the Internet Medieval Source Book. The Sourcebook is a collection of public domain and copy-permitted texts related to medieval and Byzantine history.




Musicmystery -> RE: Concession Of England To The Pope. 1213 (4/19/2010 4:17:23 PM)

You might want to run this by Henry VIII.




Politesub53 -> RE: Concession Of England To The Pope. 1213 (4/19/2010 4:46:19 PM)

 
Realone, your constant stupidity is a delight to me. You post a lot yet understand nothing about the bigger picture of European history.






Real0ne -> RE: Concession Of England To The Pope. 1213 (4/19/2010 4:54:55 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53


Realone, your constant stupidity is a delight to me. You post a lot yet understand nothing about the bigger picture of European history.






Oh you mean the propaganda part?

Sure I have a good grip on that too.

aint life a biatch!


from. Stubb's Charters, p. 284, translated in Ernest F. Henderson, , Select Historical Documents of the Middle Ages, (London: George Bell, 1910), pp. 430-431


I will betcha its a big conspiracy!







Politesub53 -> RE: Concession Of England To The Pope. 1213 (4/19/2010 5:05:45 PM)

The problem is, and it is clear from your second post, that you know little of King John or of Anglo-French politics of the time. Sure, you have found a charter he signed, big deal he was well known for making deals and breaking his word. He even did that with the Magna Carta, hence the Barons Wars, which led to his downfall.




DCWoody -> RE: Concession Of England To The Pope. 1213 (4/19/2010 5:10:18 PM)

Whatever it is you have, I don't think it's a grip.




jlf1961 -> RE: Concession Of England To The Pope. 1213 (4/19/2010 5:10:59 PM)

Polite, dont confuse real or pa with facts, it causes mental gymnastics in their brains they are not wired to handle.




Real0ne -> RE: Concession Of England To The Pope. 1213 (4/19/2010 5:14:14 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

The problem is, and it is clear from your second post, that you know little of King John or of Anglo-French politics of the time. Sure, you have found a charter he signed, big deal he was well known for making deals and breaking his word. He even did that with the Magna Carta, hence the Barons Wars, which led to his downfall.


well see that'l teach him.

so how is it being owned by the catholic church anyway?




Real0ne -> RE: Concession Of England To The Pope. 1213 (4/19/2010 5:15:28 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

Polite, dont confuse real or pa with facts, it causes mental gymnastics in their brains they are not wired to handle.


hey jlf

from. Stubb's Charters, p. 284, translated in Ernest F. Henderson, , Select Historical Documents of the Middle Ages, (London: George Bell, 1910), pp. 430-431


I will betcha its a big conspiracy!





Arpig -> RE: Concession Of England To The Pope. 1213 (4/19/2010 5:22:35 PM)

quote:

well see that'l teach him.

so how is it being owned by the catholic church anyway?
LMMFAO...you are an idiot, there's no two ways about it. Like MM said, you may want to read up on Henry VIII, he renounced all fealty to Rome and made himself head of the Church in England, a position taken by all his successors with the exception of Mary I.





Politesub53 -> RE: Concession Of England To The Pope. 1213 (4/19/2010 5:24:32 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

The problem is, and it is clear from your second post, that you know little of King John or of Anglo-French politics of the time. Sure, you have found a charter he signed, big deal he was well known for making deals and breaking his word. He even did that with the Magna Carta, hence the Barons Wars, which led to his downfall.


well see that'l teach him.

so how is it being owned by the catholic church anyway?



You tell me, since you claim we own you and the Catholic Church own us.

Do you not see how stupid this makes you look.




Real0ne -> RE: Concession Of England To The Pope. 1213 (4/19/2010 5:26:43 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Arpig

quote:

well see that'l teach him.

so how is it being owned by the catholic church anyway?
LMMFAO...you are an idiot, there's no two ways about it. Like MM said, you may want to read up on Henry VIII, he renounced all fealty to Rome and made himself head of the Church in England, a position taken by all his successors with the exception of Mary I.




best of my knowledge NO document exists.....

You cant just stand up and make an announcement to nullify a contract and think its actually going to happen!!!! 

What fantasy land you comin from   LMAO




pahunkboy -> RE: Concession Of England To The Pope. 1213 (4/19/2010 5:27:31 PM)

You lost me.

What does it mean?




DCWoody -> RE: Concession Of England To The Pope. 1213 (4/19/2010 5:29:58 PM)

Lol @ 'contract'





Musicmystery -> RE: Concession Of England To The Pope. 1213 (4/19/2010 5:30:57 PM)

It helps to be the King of England.

Law is a concept. Its existence doesn't stop real power from doing what it wants.

Or Henry's obstacles from losing their heads.





pahunkboy -> RE: Concession Of England To The Pope. 1213 (4/19/2010 5:31:50 PM)

The British folk don't think they are owned?


Oh man.  Must be foggy there.




Real0ne -> RE: Concession Of England To The Pope. 1213 (4/19/2010 5:33:28 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

It helps to be the King of England.

Law is a concept. It's existence doesn't stop real power from doing what it wants.





Oh yeh like money!  LOLOLOLOLOLOL  It all came back to me now. LMAO

DOOOOOOD the only way that contract can be annulled is by conquest or agreement and I dont remember england knocking down rome and once again unless you got the goods in writing you have no standing and you can scream and come up with as many rationalizations as you wont and it wont change anything!




pahunkboy -> RE: Concession Of England To The Pope. 1213 (4/19/2010 5:35:05 PM)

Ah but the British are the free-ash people on earth.   The crown sees to that.




Real0ne -> RE: Concession Of England To The Pope. 1213 (4/19/2010 5:36:14 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: pahunkboy

The British folk don't think they are owned?


Oh man.  Must be foggy there.




yeh but look at it from the brighter side of things.

NOW they can vote for their master just like us!




pahunkboy -> RE: Concession Of England To The Pope. 1213 (4/19/2010 5:38:14 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

quote:

ORIGINAL: pahunkboy

The British folk don't think they are owned?


Oh man.  Must be foggy there.




yeh but look at it from the brighter side of things.

NOW they can vote for their master just like us!




Sure they can.

One that sold them to the East India Company.




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