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RE: For the English.... - 4/22/2010 3:34:31 PM

Moonhead

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Polaris we could at least maintain domestically. This thing? Forget it. It's completely fucking useless, and we're paying the yanks an arm and a leg for it. Word is that it being up for renewal is the main reason Blair got us into Iraq as well.

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Post #: 21

RE: For the English.... - 4/22/2010 3:38:00 PM

SohCahToa

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KOFR

When all is said and done: all Trident is for is to be a member of a golf club, it serve no defence function. Ask yourself how we'll know which terrorist state to attack?

We have it because others have it, there is no logical reason for Trident or any replacement.

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- Pax vobiscum -

"Come ride with me through the veins of history. I'll show you a God who falls asleep on the job." - Muse

(in reply to Moonhead)

Post #: 22

RE: For the English.... - 4/22/2010 3:42:25 PM

Moonhead

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Yep.
I wouldn't even say it's fair justification for us being in the golf club, myself: it isn't like it's our own set of clubs after all.

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I like to think he was eaten by rats, in the dark, during a fog. It's what he would have wanted...
(Simon R Green on the late James Herbert)

(in reply to SohCahToa)

Post #: 23

RE: For the English.... - 4/22/2010 3:43:53 PM

Politesub53

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DCWoody

@Polite, though the conservatives would never dare admit it, crime has been one of the success stories of the labour government, it's fallen substantiallyin their time. Only question is is it worth the larger prison pops, the CCTV cameras, the massively dubious anti-terrorism powers.

I dont see it myself, at least not where I live. I wouldnt say it is much worse than before, but it certainly isnt falling. It is hard to make any firm comparisons, since labour have altered the way they record the figures.

(in reply to DCWoody)

Post #: 24

RE: For the English.... - 4/22/2010 4:03:56 PM

DCWoody

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There have been many alterations to the way crime is recorded, but mostly that's made things look worse than they are (I don't recall throwing eggs being regarded as assault in 97), it's still possible to make a rough comparison....if things were close it'd be tricky, but....they're not, so it ain't. The upside to trading freedom for security, you do tend to get security...

Re the gum, do broadly agree with sentiments expressed in thread.

(in reply to Politesub53)

Post #: 25

RE: For the English.... - 4/22/2010 6:54:20 PM

Aneirin

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I sodding missed the show, my digibox went apeshit, but still, it's Cleggy for me.

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Everything we are is the result of what we have thought, the mind is everything, what we think, we become - Guatama Buddha

Conservatism is distrust of people tempered by fear - William Gladstone

(in reply to DCWoody)

Post #: 26

RE: For the English.... - 4/22/2010 7:24:38 PM

DCWoody

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@Anerin http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/search/?q=debate&sort=dateavailable has the audio.
Personally I haven't been watching anyway, it's all gonna be public pandering campaigning hogwash...but paying attention to the reporting on it, try and work if the libs really can take the house.

(in reply to Aneirin)

Post #: 27

RE: For the English.... - 4/22/2010 8:16:56 PM

Aneirin

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Thanks.

_____________________________

Everything we are is the result of what we have thought, the mind is everything, what we think, we become - Guatama Buddha

Conservatism is distrust of people tempered by fear - William Gladstone

(in reply to DCWoody)

Post #: 28

RE: For the English.... - 4/22/2010 8:26:01 PM

Real0ne

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SohCahToa

KOFR

When all is said and done: all Trident is for is to be a member of a golf club, it serve no defence function. Ask yourself how we'll know which terrorist state to attack?

We have it because others have it, there is no logical reason for Trident or any replacement.

oil

_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to SohCahToa)

Post #: 29

RE: For the English.... - 4/23/2010 6:04:50 AM

mnottertail

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As you all know, I am a Yank. But I think everyone is pissed off enough that a bright eyed, well spoken, scrubbed up boyo like Clegg is going to take the gold, leaving the 'pros' licking their wounds. Now I know that your politics is hardly as shallow as ours, but still I think the mob mentality part of the UK (it is the UK right? or doesn't Ireland have any bearing here? Is it only Great Britain?) in any case wants to clearly demonstrate their dissatisfaction with the status quo. Particularly so, since the US has (at least officially in the politically deceptive sense) eased up on the evil empire bullshit around the globe.

But, as I say, I am a Yank and many generations removed from Bethersden in Kent.

Great Grandson of George Hook, whos birth certificate entry (1869) I have seen in St. Catharine's House. And have almost been run over repeatedly in Picadilly Circus for looking the wrong way before stepping off the curb.

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Post #: 30

RE: For the English.... - 4/23/2010 6:07:11 AM

Moonhead

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Northern Ireland is part of the UK, but since the devolution thing* started gearing up, they get their own assembly, in addition to being represented in the UK one.

*Nothing to do with Mothersbaugh and Casale, sadly.

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I like to think he was eaten by rats, in the dark, during a fog. It's what he would have wanted...
(Simon R Green on the late James Herbert)

(in reply to mnottertail)

Post #: 31

RE: For the English.... - 4/23/2010 6:17:45 AM

SohCahToa

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All these emerging factions within our political system kind of raises the question as to how it is decided upon as to who takes part in each debate?

What is the prerequisite for a political leader being able to take to the stage and if it's by popularity then how do we assess this before an election? I think there is the danger of feedback i.e. only the major parties get more publicity due to the leadership debates.

It should be more like the x-factor with preliminary rounds, then a telephone vote can decide upon who remains able to debate in each area of the UK. At that stage we can also get past all that 'men of the people' crap because all of these political leaders are cut off from reality anyway. There can be a tearful video diary demonstrating the struggles they have faced in life prior to leaving Oxbridge.

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ڪ০મ໒คमՇՕΔ
- Pax vobiscum -

"Come ride with me through the veins of history. I'll show you a God who falls asleep on the job." - Muse

(in reply to Moonhead)

Post #: 32

RE: For the English.... - 4/23/2010 6:41:46 AM

Aneirin

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Yes, that is another irritation, why does Northern Ireland, Scotland and Wales get their own Parliament but England does not ?

If by saying there is already a Parliament in England, in London, so we don't need one, is that saying that Parliament is for English matters only, or is it England cannot have a Parliament like the rest of the Union, if so why ?

I have believe it has happened, Scottish Parliament MP's have voted for or against something in the UK London Parliament and then gone back home and done the reverse in Scotland, the result is Scottish people have an enhanced standard of living compared to the English paid for by UK coffers. This is hardly undicative of a fair society. I believe at some point in the past, a general election, I voted for an English Parliament then.

_____________________________

Everything we are is the result of what we have thought, the mind is everything, what we think, we become - Guatama Buddha

Conservatism is distrust of people tempered by fear - William Gladstone

(in reply to SohCahToa)

Post #: 33

RE: For the English.... - 4/23/2010 6:46:00 AM

LadyEllen

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The Labour manifesto I believe had such offers A - elected mayors and regional assemblies, subject to local demand and support for them. There are a few elected mayors - Stoke and Doncaster I believe, but the initial consultations on regional assemblies fell so flat they were an embarassment and seemed to be quietly put aside.

Yes, we could do with changing the system but I dont think an English Parliament is necessary if it is another layer of bureaucracy and politicans that we must pay to support in office. Rather we need to remove the right of Welsh, Scots and N Irish MPs to vote on matters concerning and affecting England only.

E

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Post #: 34

RE: For the English.... - 4/23/2010 6:53:40 AM

mnottertail

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Now see here, LE, isn't that rather like you are reversing a long held position here? You say that everything the US does affects you, and you wish you could have some greater influence on us to prevent some of the trashy billingsgates we have created in the world?

Accordingly, I mean what sort of things affects England only that doesn't affect GB (Wales and Scotland) as well? And I will agree with Ireland and therefore the UK that is one of the most bizarre things that who knows where that will lead. You folks is awful funny with your Irish.

LOL. (I expect there are no 'U's in Ireland, really, at the end of the day).

Ron

< Message edited by mnottertail -- 4/23/2010 6:55:39 AM >

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Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30

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Post #: 35

RE: For the English.... - 4/23/2010 7:15:13 AM

LadyEllen

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If we're split in four Ron, it follows that American cultural and economic influence must be reduced by a factor of 16. It would be a factor of four, but we refuse to use all capitals to write England following a handy tip off as to its effect.

You do see that dont you?

E

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In a test against the leading brand, 9 out of 10 participants couldnt tell the difference. Dumbasses.

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Post #: 36

RE: For the English.... - 4/23/2010 7:35:45 AM

Moonhead

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

The Labour manifesto I believe had such offers A - elected mayors and regional assemblies, subject to local demand and support for them. There are a few elected mayors - Stoke and Doncaster I believe, but the initial consultations on regional assemblies fell so flat they were an embarassment and seemed to be quietly put aside.

There's one in London as well, iirc there was a bit of a fuss over the last guy who got elected.
The system in Stoke is being changed, but noboy's quite sure what it's changing to just yet.

_____________________________

I like to think he was eaten by rats, in the dark, during a fog. It's what he would have wanted...
(Simon R Green on the late James Herbert)

(in reply to LadyEllen)

Post #: 37

RE: For the English.... - 4/24/2010 3:05:17 AM

NorthernGent

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SohCahToa

Isn't it true though that if you have an amnesty you just encourage future illegal immigration?

Not necessarily.

The Liberals are saying.....amnesty for those who have been here 10 years and haven't broken the law.

Now to me that just seems sensible. Why run round hunting people who have made a life here and made a success of it? What would be the point in funding such a hunt? For what objective? To get rid of people who are contributing to the economy? Is that value for tax payers money?

And why would such an amnesty encourage illegal immigration? If we keep our heads down for 10 years we could just get away with it? It's a long old time.

To me Clegg is sensible to take a pragmatic approach and as he said let's get a grip on immigration from here. Essentially he is saying: "let's not spend tax payers money on chasing people who are paying their dues....let's spend that money on tightening the borders to minimise the risk of people coming in and placing a burden on public services while not contributing anything". Ain't that just sensible?

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I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

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Post #: 38

RE: For the English.... - 4/24/2010 6:10:08 AM

DCWoody

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It does encourage more immigration. It's a sensible option to think about, and the other parties don't seem to have any ideas at all, but, it definitely would taken on its own encourage further immigration. I'd only recommend it in conjunction with other measures to discourage immigration, reform of welfare etc.

(in reply to NorthernGent)

Post #: 39

RE: For the English.... - 4/24/2010 7:08:44 AM

Aneirin

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I believe Clegg has the right idea, leave those who have been here a while and are contributing to society in whatever shape or form, the fuck alone, but seriously tighten up the borders. Of course those immigrants who have been languishing on benefits for all their time in this country, they should be the first targets for employment, not those unfortunate enough to find themselves on the scrap heap through changes to our types of employment and shit attitude to those who wish to retrain for another professional career. As I see it, the last in should be the first to be sorted out, and then go down the pile from there.

Cameron and Brown to a certain extent are doing themselves no favours attacking the unemployed and on benefits, for it is this country that has created the no hope scenario, and by that, actions of both Labour and Conservative governments. The unemployment/benefits issue can be tackled in another way, that by providing hope for people, encourage, not bully. Hope in worthwhile employment, or education with the intent to provide a more highly skilled workforce for the future.

If you check out the Lib/Dem ideas, you will see they intend for education to be free for all those that seek it, that includes those that wish to retrain, but the problem still exists, how does one live, if retraining to be of use to the country, part time jobs do not make enough to survive, and in search of more funds to live and pay taxes, more work has to be sought and that eats into learning time with the inevitability that drop outs and failure to pass occur.

A system I would like to see, is anyone can drop out of employment to seek further training or a change in career, but whilst training, they are kept by the social, benefits if you like. On completion of studies, elevated work brings more funds, and the loan, is payed back. Only when all the monies are paid back can that same person again drop out and seek yet more education if they desire it. I believe the Swedish system is something like this.

But, when politicians attack certain sectors of society, what they are doing, is shifting the blame, stirring up problems which they already have an answer to, they are vitriolic in their approach, and they seek the same from other to enable their vote, to all intents and purposes, certain politicians are nought but rabble rousers.

Cameron this week blatting on about the unemployed, out in the street, I bet he would not do that in a high unemployment area, he would get his head kicked in.

Simple way to get people off benefits, create hope and stimulate belief, because where there is none, people just dig in heals.

_____________________________

Everything we are is the result of what we have thought, the mind is everything, what we think, we become - Guatama Buddha

Conservatism is distrust of people tempered by fear - William Gladstone

(in reply to DCWoody)

Post #: 40

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