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RE: For the English.... - 4/24/2010 9:47:42 AM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DCWoody

It does encourage more immigration.



Does it Woody? Someone would think: "tell you what.....I'm going to England.....could be tricky for 10 years as I'll be running round from one day to the next worrying about being hoyed out......could do very well there for 8 years....and then I'm gone...start again from scratch somewhere".

I'm not seeing what you're seeing at all.

Have to say...I'm really glad for these debates as they've revived a few old passions for me....the more I think of Conservatism the more I think I'd vote for a rat just to keep them out of power.....and we all know that they love POWER!

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RE: For the English.... - 4/24/2010 10:08:49 AM   
DCWoody


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Bear in mind that the people here already were willing to come and dodge and hide forever, 10 years isn't so long in comparison. I think you'd be hard pressed to find anyone who'd study the field denying that an amnesty encourages further immigration.

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RE: For the English.... - 4/24/2010 10:32:23 AM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DCWoody

Bear in mind that the people here already were willing to come and dodge and hide forever, 10 years isn't so long in comparison. I think you'd be hard pressed to find anyone who'd study the field denying that an amnesty encourages further immigration.


More than the current immigration flow? A 10 year amnesty would bump up the figures? Why?

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Profile   Post #: 43
RE: For the English.... - 4/24/2010 10:54:10 AM   
SohCahToa


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent
The Liberals are saying.....amnesty for those who have been here 10 years and haven't broken the law.
......
And why would such an amnesty encourage illegal immigration? If we keep our heads down for 10 years we could just get away with it? It's a long old time.

Yeah I heard this on the Radio 1 leadership interview but the problem is: "What proof is required of ten year residency?"

On the one hand it should be impossible to get utility bills etc if you are an illegal immigrant but on the other they are supposed to have them to prove they have been here for ten years. Since they've been hiding there is going to be little supporting evidence as to who has been here for ten years.

I can't even prove I've been here for ten years because I tend to shred my bills etc after a certain period of time.
quote:


To me Clegg is sensible to take a pragmatic approach and as he said let's get a grip on immigration from here. Essentially he is saying: "let's not spend tax payers money on chasing people who are paying their dues....let's spend that money on tightening the borders to minimise the risk of people coming in and placing a burden on public services while not contributing anything". Ain't that just sensible?

If they are here legally they pay tax and N.I. otherwise they don't.

I agree with the border tightening and bringing back the exit count but additionally I think you have to deal with those here illegally or at least try to.

I believe the other policy was to allot people to certain regions of the country, depending on demand, which also won't work.


< Message edited by SohCahToa -- 4/24/2010 10:57:44 AM >


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RE: For the English.... - 4/24/2010 11:08:25 AM   
DCWoody


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I find it hard to make the argument because to my mind it follows automatically. The chance of getting legal residence, citizenship, rather than not....I can't see how that could fail to make the UK more attractive.

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RE: For the English.... - 4/24/2010 6:01:20 PM   
Aneirin


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SohCahToa


I believe the other policy was to allot people to certain regions of the country, depending on demand, which also won't work.



Why won't it work, it did in Sweden, for immigrants were welcomed with open arms, given all they need, and sent to where they were required. The only complaint was the complaints of the immigrant, something along the lines of I want to be with my countrymen, the Swedes answer; Given that you are now Swedish, where you are, you are with your countrymen. Maybe that is the answer, welcome immigrants with open arms, give them citizen ship with all the attributes, and send them where they are needed most. They say they come here for a better life and are willing to work, then  if that is the case, they must submit to the authorities wish, and go where sent.



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RE: For the English.... - 4/24/2010 6:16:25 PM   
SohCahToa


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How are you going to contain people in each region they are allotted to?

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RE: For the English.... - 4/24/2010 6:37:14 PM   
Aneirin


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Simple, they move away, they lose their job, and then fall foul of the benefits system the rest of us have to contend with, i.e. You made yourself intentionally homeless, you  quit your job for no reason other than it was not in the right place, you as a naturalised Briton do not get any special EEC guided privledges for being an immigrant, you just like any other Briton, are now on your own. This might be fine for a single immigrant, they can sleep in doorways like many forgotten Britons but families, that is a rough passage. Give citizenship, treat them as they were Britons, all the way, maybe when the message gets out, people would be less keen to come here if it is the easy ghetto life they seek.

< Message edited by Aneirin -- 4/24/2010 6:39:54 PM >


_____________________________

Everything we are is the result of what we have thought, the mind is everything, what we think, we become - Guatama Buddha

Conservatism is distrust of people tempered by fear - William Gladstone

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RE: For the English.... - 4/24/2010 6:40:16 PM   
JonnieBoy


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Why is this just "for the English" ... it's a UK election ... so this is not about who "wins" ... you may be interested in who wins the UK election (Not English ... there's no such thing), so, your profound BIGOTRY is bleedin obvious .

It smacks supremacist and a serious concern in terms of TOS

God damn, the Mods are going to have a BIG headache if you carry on with this kinda stuff. They probably don't even know what a constituency  is yet, let alone who Oswald Ernald Mosely was ... sure as hell I'll educate them if they don't.

Pirate


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Profile   Post #: 49
RE: For the English.... - 4/24/2010 6:59:52 PM   
JonnieBoy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin

Yes, that is another irritation, why does Northern Ireland, Scotland and Wales get their own Parliament but England does not ?

If by saying there is already a Parliament in England, in London, so we don't need one, is that saying that Parliament is for English matters only, or is it England cannot have a Parliament like the rest of the Union, if so why ?

I have believe it has happened, Scottish Parliament MP's have voted for or against something in the UK London Parliament and then gone back home and done the reverse in Scotland, the result is Scottish people have an enhanced standard of living compared to the English paid for by UK coffers. This is hardly undicative of a fair society. I believe at some point in the past, a general election, I voted for an English Parliament then.



I refer you, my honourable friend, to the answer I gave earlier.

England should really pitch a campaign for recognition, until it does however ... I refer you to the comment I made earlier.

There's enough English fucking bigots hiding from the sensible English just over a certain border ... and driving into your cities to preach hatred ... these fuckers would never qualify as "English" ... even if they had their ultimate way ... Anyone wan't to call that one ? ...

If England goes alone ... it gets them ALL back, because the "Jurisdiction" ensures that (same jurisdiction by which I can't give details here ... but if you want a legal publicly available web addy to get scared about ... )

They can't kill me ... I died twice, then I saw the light and realised I'm not a fucking Moth.

Pirate 

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RE: For the English.... - 4/25/2010 12:38:16 AM   
LadyEllen


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And does anyone believe A, that a family that had immigrated to an area for work that then left that area would really be left high and dry, cut off without a penny or a place to live? Aint gonna happen - so such work permits must be on the basis that yes we need those skills in that region, but you dont get to bring your family with you unless the job is one that is to last more than a year, and even then if you lose the job you have to find another or go home, paid for by HM Govt if need be with no right to return for 5 years. We then also need to make clear that any children born here are not British citizens - which I seem to recall is the case in law now.

But I dont believe this is about immigration per se. Its about the perception of being outnumbered by and put to the back of the list (whatever list, not just housing) of priorities on the part of those that are white and British. Its about the perception and in some cases fact of cultural displacement as certain areas become "little (insert overseas country)". These perceptions are heightened and far more prevalent when the incoming people are not Europeans - not because the British are racist I believe but because these people stand out more as different - apart from a few features in some we'd never know if our neighbours were Polish necessarily, but we sure would know if they were African or Asian, because they look different, dress different, do different things than is the cultural norm for our culture. Its these obvious differences in our non European immigrants that makes them stand out and makes the whole immigration thing so immediate to us. It isnt helped by multi-culturalism and cultural retention and nor by the ghettoisation of such populations, though again none of these factors are the fault of the immigrants themselves.

Encouraging though is that despite our moaning and groaning from time to time, Britain is still a paradise. So much so that people worldwide outside the western world have here as the number one place they'd like to live. So lets look at immigration for what it is, and the problems for what they are, rather than get into a bidding war as to who might be toughest on immigration and toughest on the causes of immigration.



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RE: For the English.... - 4/25/2010 3:19:18 AM   
Politesub53


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Lady E makes a solid point here. I dont hear many people moan about immigration as shuch, more about those that cause crime. This is on top of the worries about lack of jobs, housing, schools ect. Blair must have been stupid to think there wouldnt be a mass influx from Eastern Europe.

I also think one of the reasons Labour decided to move immigrants to certain areas, was to break up the Tory vote. This is the same reason more financial help and public facilities are going to Labour dominated areas. Our local tax office has been moved to Perth, adding to the long list of unemployed in this area.

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Profile   Post #: 52
RE: For the English.... - 4/25/2010 6:27:06 AM   
Aneirin


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The bottom line though, is Britain has always been a place people emigrate to, even a lot of the Romans stayed here when their military service was up, and of people who were in the Roman military and it's supporting services, there were many people of different ethnicities and skin colours. Hang on a minute, many of the southern England Iron age tribes  that the Romans later beat into compliance came over from Gaul, out of the way of Julius Ceasar who was at that time fighting the Gauls. But the celt pre Roman Britain, where did he come from, more immigrants to displace the indigenous population, of whom I believe the Picts were the nearest to, or at least those types bearing the pale pre blue skin and wiry red hair.

But after Rome pissed off, we have had peaceful after peaceful invasions of people seeking better lands, so much so, the Saxons referred to the then indigenous people in Britain, Both the Romano and non Romano Briton, as foreigner in their own lands. Britain has always been invaded, either by conquest or peaceful means, perhaps it is given Britain has this history, that is why it is known to be a favourite place to emigrate to.

The other thing which I believe might go some way to explain the rise in Anti immigrant feelings, was what happened a few years ago, well for me, I noticed it in the early nineteen nineties, this thing was a rise in interest towards Celtic, it was everywhere, knotwork and celtic crosses, it was big with marketing, one could sell anything if it had a bit of celtia on it. People embraced Celtia, and sought their past, the past of a conquered  and subjegated people. Battle re enactment groups sprang up everywhere, I was in such a group it is where I learned I could turn my hand to make whatever was required, it was in these groups that I noticed something quite disturbing, the feeling, for there was a dislike, with some a hatred of the invader, be it what it is in the time role and with some the present time. I wondered why people chose the role of a Celt rather than a Roman, well, I believe it comes down to bitterness, people wanted to be the beaten, maybe that is because that is how people feel in this modern society, powerless and angry. It is either that, or Britons are by and large a bunch of fighting submissives.


_____________________________

Everything we are is the result of what we have thought, the mind is everything, what we think, we become - Guatama Buddha

Conservatism is distrust of people tempered by fear - William Gladstone

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RE: For the English.... - 4/25/2010 6:49:58 AM   
SohCahToa


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The Romans didn't have a social welfare system, so what is your point?

I don't care how many people come here as long as I'm not paying for services which I get no benefit from. If you want to abolish all taxes and let people fend for themselves I'm quite open to the idea or unlimited immigration.

Aneirin you are doing what all the chattering classes do on in relation to this subject; turn it into a debate about race and bigotry whilst ignoring the obvious. It is really about being sensible and pragmatic about what numbers you can realistically support in urban areas. Come to London and sit in a Doctors waiting room, take note that the consultations are taking longer because translators are often required. There are only so many hours in the day and thus often you'll be waiting a couple of days to be seen. Now if I could opt out from that kind of service I probably would, I believe in socialism but you have to be realistic about it and the pressures placed upon it.

Stop making it about acceptance.

Like all systems there is a peak operating efficiency, socialism is no different.


< Message edited by SohCahToa -- 4/25/2010 6:56:45 AM >


_____________________________

ڪ০મ໒คमՇՕΔ
- Pax vobiscum -

"Come ride with me through the veins of history. I'll show you a God who falls asleep on the job." - Muse

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Profile   Post #: 54
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