RE: African complicity in the slave trade....

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Silence8 -> RE: African complicity in the slave trade.... (4/23/2010 10:31:14 PM)
http://www.democracynow.org/2010/3/11/legal_scholar_michelle_alexander_on_the JUAN GONZALEZ: President Obama’s election a year and a half ago continues to be lauded for ushering in a new era of colorblindness. The very fact of his presidency is regarded by some as the final nail in the coffin of Jim Crow. Yet, today there are more African Americans under correctional control, whether in prison or jail, on probation or on parole, than there were enslaved in 1850. And more African American men are disenfranchised now because of felon disenfranchisement laws than in 1870. A new book by legal scholar and civil rights advocate Michelle Alexander argues that although Jim Crow laws have been eliminated, the racial caste system it set up was not eradicated. It’s simply been redesigned, and now racial control functions through the criminal justice system. AMY GOODMAN: We’re joined now from Columbus, Ohio by Michelle Alexander, author of the new book The New Jim Crow: Mass Incarceration in the Age of Colorblindness. Her latest article exploring how the war on drugs gave birth to what she calls a permanent American undercaste is available at tomdispatch.com. She’s a former director of the Racial Justice Project at the ACLU of Northern California. She now holds a joint appointment at the Kirwan Institute for the Study of Race and Ethnicity and the Moritz College of Law at Ohio State University. Michelle Alexander, welcome to Democracy Now! Nearly half of America’s young black men are behind bars or have been labeled felons for life? That’s an astounding figure. Also, what does it mean in terms of their rights for the rest of their lives? MICHELLE ALEXANDER: Yes, thanks largely to the war on drugs, a war that has been waged almost exclusively in poor communities of color, even though studies have consistently shown that people of color are no more likely to use or sell illegal drugs than whites. The war on drugs waged in these ghetto communities has managed to brand as felons millions of people of color for relatively minor, nonviolent drug offenses. And once branded a felon, they’re ushered into a permanent second-class status, not unlike the one we supposedly left behind. Those labeled felons may be denied the right to vote, are automatically excluded from juries, and my be legally discriminated against in employment, housing, access to education, public benefits, much like their grandparents or great grandparents may have been discriminated against during the Jim Crow era. Yeah, right, liberal source. I guess I should find an article from a source you trust, say, prisonplanet? [:D]

tazzygirl -> RE: African complicity in the slave trade.... (4/23/2010 10:34:59 PM)
quote: Wow. You realize that people read this shit? Addressing a problem isn't the same as condoning it-- that's what I'm doing, addressing a really existent, empirically undeniable problem. Ignoring a problem and supporting stupid fucking arguments about African slave traders -- that's what you're doing. If anyone is being racist by ignoring that race is an issue, hmmm... let's see... yeah... and the candidate... is... you. Alot of people will read this... and your comment quote: And make criminal backgrounds disappear once 'criminals' (usually black people) 'serve' (woops... the truth came out) their time. So, lets see your proof of such a claim.

Silence8 -> RE: African complicity in the slave trade.... (4/23/2010 10:38:29 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Elisabella quote: ORIGINAL: Silence8 7) In Africa at the time, especially West Africa, for many it was a matter of enslave or be enslaved. You had to buy guns to defend yourself; the only way you could buy guns was by selling slaves. If you were a leader who impeded the slave trade, the Europeans would have you ousted. Complicit? That's basically wrong, or at least it obscures the important points. Points 5) and 7) are the most critical. Except there was slavery in Africa before Europeans bought them: quote: Slavery in Africa, the institution of slavery as it existed in Africa, and the effects of world slave-trade systems on African people and societies. As in most of the world, slavery, or involuntary human servitude, was practiced across Africa from prehistoric times to the modern era. http://autocww.colorado.edu/~blackmon/E64ContentFiles/AfricanHistory/SlaveryInAfrica.html And continues to this day: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_modern_Africa So you can't really blame the Europeans for a problem that existed before they came and after they left. You most certainly can, especially when the degree and severity of the conditions in question can hardly be compared. You most certainly can, when Western economic policy continues to strangle African development as well as African American.

Silence8 -> RE: African complicity in the slave trade.... (4/23/2010 10:39:53 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl quote: Wow. You realize that people read this shit? Addressing a problem isn't the same as condoning it-- that's what I'm doing, addressing a really existent, empirically undeniable problem. Ignoring a problem and supporting stupid fucking arguments about African slave traders -- that's what you're doing. If anyone is being racist by ignoring that race is an issue, hmmm... let's see... yeah... and the candidate... is... you. Alot of people will read this... and your comment quote: And make criminal backgrounds disappear once 'criminals' (usually black people) 'serve' (woops... the truth came out) their time. So, lets see your proof of such a claim. See previous post. (Or you could just go to any random prison, practically, and do a quick 'head count'.)

slvemike4u -> RE: African complicity in the slave trade.... (4/23/2010 10:40:36 PM)
Silence,if you feel like discussing these issues,and they are real and relevant issues,feel free to start a thread discussing why America has such a large prison population.But that is not ,strictly speaking the focus of this thread.Now far be from me to tell anyone else they are hijacking a thread...I can go off on a tangent with the best of them...but the issues you are trying to inject here deserve there own thread...rather than as a sidebar to this reparations thread.They are separate and distinctly different issues perhaps both deserving of their own distinct conversations.

Silence8 -> RE: African complicity in the slave trade.... (4/23/2010 10:43:15 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: slvemike4u Silence,if you feel like discussing these issues,and they are real and relevant issues,feel free to start a thread discussing why America has such a large prison population.But that is not ,strictly speaking the focus of this thread.Now far be from me to tell anyone else they are hijacking a thread...I can go off on a tangent with the best of them...but the issues you are trying to inject here deserve there own thread...rather than as a sidebar to this reparations thread.They are separate and distinctly different issues perhaps both deserving of their own distinct conversations. They're not that separated. Slaves are prisoners; prisoners are slaves. Yeah, it's a simplification -- that's what thought is, a simplification. Thought simplifies.

tazzygirl -> RE: African complicity in the slave trade.... (4/23/2010 10:43:29 PM)
And exactly what was the degree and severity.

VioletGray -> RE: African complicity in the slave trade.... (4/23/2010 10:43:59 PM)
Wow, I don't know where to begin... Before I begin, let me say that I think that trying to get reparations for slavery is a lost cause. Whether it's justified or not, I don't think its ever going to happen, and I certainly don't have the answers for how to go about paying reparations. But it's some of the rebuttal arguments here against the reparations that I find.... troubling. I think best with bullet points, so here we go: When people like to stress the role of African slave traders in the trade here in America, my question is always "What difference does it make?" How long did it take for that African to sell that slave? A couple days? The next couple hundred years of rape, murder, and being worked to death happened *here. Once they had their shiny new slave they could have let him go. But they chose* to keep him down. The 1st generation slave might have been sold by Africans, but his children, and his children's children, were all bought, sold, and put to work, here. Did Africa have slavery? Yes. You know what else Africa had? Murder. Now does that justify the murder of black people in America, or is murder wrong no matter where it happens? People need to understand what the "Come on, slavery happened way back then" mindset sounds like to the rest of us. Sort of like a extinguishing a burning man and then telling him, "Yeah I know, setting you on fire was kind up messed up, but it's in the past now" and then refusing to acknowledge that he still has the burns. I started to go into this rant about the long term effects of slavery on race and class but I'm sure I don't need to, I have faith in you all :-) Let those other countries that have slavery in their pasts worry about how to deal with slavery. This is our country so we're dealing with our slavery issues. And the reality is, that the country is what it is today because of the hundreds of years of free labor that fueled the economy of the fledgling nation. The whole reparations argument, futile as it may be, is about more than, "Oops, slavery. My bad." It's also about recompense for building the country. But like I said, won't ever happen, so it's a non-issue.

Silence8 -> RE: African complicity in the slave trade.... (4/23/2010 10:46:35 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl And exactly what was the degree and severity. American slaves in the heyday were working to death sometimes in under 10 years. American slaves were greater in number than African ones. European intrusion into African increased the process of enslavement by 10-100x fold. I'd have to go back and check the numbers. Yes, when the Europeans left, enslavement did not go away, but it decreased dramatically. No one's perfectly innocent, of course. But that argument applies so widely that it means almost nothing at all. That's why I'm classifying this NYT article as ideology, not, you know, a real idea.

Elisabella -> RE: African complicity in the slave trade.... (4/23/2010 10:47:47 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Silence8 You most certainly can, especially when the degree and severity of the conditions in question can hardly be compared. You most certainly can, when Western economic policy continues to strangle African development as well as African American. By "strangle African development" I presume you mean introduce new medical technology, agricultural technology, and travel technology, donate food and medicine, and send peacekeeping troops to free child soldiers and prostitutes from slavery? Reparations = Our ancestors did horrible things to your ancestors but the result is you ended up born in one of the most advanced countries in the world instead of dying before 30 from civil war/famine/AIDS/violent rape and murder/all of the above.

Silence8 -> RE: African complicity in the slave trade.... (4/23/2010 10:50:54 PM)
I take it you haven't seen 'Hotel Rwanda'.

tazzygirl -> RE: African complicity in the slave trade.... (4/23/2010 10:52:46 PM)
My people were also slaves. Driven from their own lands onto reservations. Women and child raped, families killed, no regard for their lives because they were "just animals". The Trail of Tears was not a walk in the park. It was a death march. Slavery came in lots of forms. Slavery affected lots of people, lots of races, lots of generations. Its a lesson we should never forget, but to lay blame on anyone now is a bit silly. As far as i know, no one alive now ever owned a slave... unless its a consensual one.

Elisabella -> RE: African complicity in the slave trade.... (4/23/2010 10:54:54 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Silence8 I take it you haven't seen 'Hotel Rwanda'. No I havent.

VioletGray -> RE: African complicity in the slave trade.... (4/23/2010 10:58:46 PM)
quote: Reparations = Our ancestors did horrible things to your ancestors but the result is you ended up born in one of the most advanced countries in the world instead of dying before 30 from civil war/famine/AIDS/violent rape and murder/all of the above. The implication here is that we should be thankful for slavery, because if not for slavery then we wouldn't live in this great country. Part of the reason the country is great is because of the work of the slaves in the first place. Imagine if one day you got raped, and the rapist says, "Sure, I raped you, but look at all the wonderful friends you made at your support group. You get to hang out with them now, instead of your loser family."

Silence8 -> RE: African complicity in the slave trade.... (4/23/2010 10:58:55 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl My people were also slaves. Driven from their own lands onto reservations. Women and child raped, families killed, no regard for their lives because they were "just animals". The Trail of Tears was not a walk in the park. It was a death march. Slavery came in lots of forms. Slavery affected lots of people, lots of races, lots of generations. Its a lesson we should never forget, but to lay blame on anyone now is a bit silly. As far as i know, no one alive now ever owned a slave... unless its a consensual one. That's why we need to work toward classless society, so that no traces can be found between one's family history and one's social status, because we all know that it ain't genetic. That way, the guilt will dissolve and I won't have to read these BS articles. [:D] Of course, the American direction has been the opposite. Increasing gaps between the rich and the poor. Socialism for rich bankers.

Elisabella -> RE: African complicity in the slave trade.... (4/23/2010 11:01:33 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: VioletGray The implication here is that we should be thankful for slavery, because if not for slavery then we wouldn't live in this great country. Part of the reason the country is great is because of the work of the slaves in the first place. Imagine if one day you got raped, and the rapist says, "Sure, I raped you, but look at all the wonderful friends you made at your support group." No, the implication is that something that happened over 150 years ago is not interchangeable with something that happens today. And it would be more like if some guy rescued me from drowning in a lake, and says "Hey, just for the record, my great-great-grandfather raped your great-great grandmother, so uh, feel free to yell at me and say I should have left you in the lake."

slvemike4u -> RE: African complicity in the slave trade.... (4/23/2010 11:02:22 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Silence8 quote: ORIGINAL: slvemike4u Silence,if you feel like discussing these issues,and they are real and relevant issues,feel free to start a thread discussing why America has such a large prison population.But that is not ,strictly speaking the focus of this thread.Now far be from me to tell anyone else they are hijacking a thread...I can go off on a tangent with the best of them...but the issues you are trying to inject here deserve there own thread...rather than as a sidebar to this reparations thread.They are separate and distinctly different issues perhaps both deserving of their own distinct conversations. They're not that separated. Slaves are prisoners; prisoners are slaves. Yeah, it's a simplification -- that's what thought is, a simplification. Thought simplifies. You will get no argument from me.....there is a lot of "simplification contained within your posts and your attacks on others.As a matter of fact there is little BUT simplification in your whole point.

Silence8 -> RE: African complicity in the slave trade.... (4/23/2010 11:07:42 PM)
Maybe since you're not American (right?) you don't see these issues. Do you really think, for instance, that schools in the cities (that serve mainly black students) are of the same quality as schools in the suburbs (that serves mainly white students)? Forget reparations, for the moment. How about actual equality for once? But, yeah, I doubt many people would turn down a check in the mail!

VioletGray -> RE: African complicity in the slave trade.... (4/23/2010 11:10:58 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Elisabella quote: ORIGINAL: VioletGray The implication here is that we should be thankful for slavery, because if not for slavery then we wouldn't live in this great country. Part of the reason the country is great is because of the work of the slaves in the first place. Imagine if one day you got raped, and the rapist says, "Sure, I raped you, but look at all the wonderful friends you made at your support group." No, the implication is that something that happened over 150 years ago is not interchangeable with something that happens today. And it would be more like if some guy rescued me from drowning in a lake, and says "Hey, just for the record, my great-great-grandfather raped your great-great grandmother, so uh, feel free to yell at me and say I should have left you in the lake." Ok first, Africa is a big continent. Africa does not equal dying before 30 from civil war/famine/AIDS/violent rape and murder/all of the above. In many places that's true, in many places that is not true. Just like in California. Second, your counter-analogy is god-awful. It would make more sense if the guy got you out of the lake, raped you, and then it turned out there were sharks in the lake. Even then, would you be like, "Thanks for the rape dude!" Probably not. Especially since he made YOU do all the paddling.

tazzygirl -> RE: African complicity in the slave trade.... (4/23/2010 11:13:06 PM)
And students from the suburbs are known to toss away a quality education... and blacks from harlem have grown up to become scientists, Drs, lawyers, ect. If the desire and drive is there, anything is possible.

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