RE: African complicity in the slave trade....

RE: African complicity in the slave trade.... (Full Version)

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Elisabella -> RE: African complicity in the slave trade.... (4/24/2010 3:16:14 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: thompsonx Since you have never been to Sub Saharan Africa and have no knowledge of the people who live there, how could you possibly make an informed choice? Experience is not the only way to obtain information. I've never been raped or crucified either but if I said there's no way in hell I want to try it I doubt you'd say I'm not informed enough to make that decision.

Level -> RE: African complicity in the slave trade.... (4/24/2010 4:40:19 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Aylee quote: ORIGINAL: Brain I am not blaming Africans for slavery. This story in the New York Times is just a sneaky way for white people to avoid taking responsibility for their despicable behavior. You are an idiot. I may not love you, but I damned sure like you an awful lot. [;)]

thompsonx -> RE: African complicity in the slave trade.... (4/24/2010 5:59:13 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl Slavery in the US, as well as in Africa, was legal. And the article directly states, as i and others have pointed out that africa did sell their own into slavery. Now, what part of that is incorrect. The part that said the importation of slaves was made illegal in in 1807...I believe it was a little later in the U.S. 1822 I think. So while salvery was legal the buying,selling and transport of slaves for sale was illegal. This was the crux of the defense in the Amistad case. As a sidelight, I believe there was only one person hanged in the U.S. for transporting slaves after the ban was put in place

thompsonx -> RE: African complicity in the slave trade.... (4/24/2010 6:43:00 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Elisabella quote: ORIGINAL: thompsonx Since you have never been to Sub Saharan Africa and have no knowledge of the people who live there, how could you possibly make an informed choice? Experience is not the only way to obtain information. I've never been raped or crucified either but if I said there's no way in hell I want to try it I doubt you'd say I'm not informed enough to make that decision. I am sure you would agree that rape and crucifiction are defined actions. Where as the choosing of a lifestyle you have no knowledge of is a different matter all together

Silence8 -> RE: African complicity in the slave trade.... (4/24/2010 7:27:08 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl quote: ORIGINAL: Silence8 quote: ORIGINAL: LadyEllen What is and is not considered moral varies from time to time as well as place to place, and feeds into the law which thereby changes from time to time and place to place to reflect its environment and the needs perceived of those determining it. E I'm not arguing necessarily for sending all black Americans some check in the mail -- though it wouldn't be all that hard, and it would be a GREAT economic stimulus, because a lot of that money would be spent immediately out of need, and the multiplier effect would make economists do a little dance. Wait, why I am not arguing that? Errr.... um... I've lost my train of thought. [:D] What was amazing about the NYT article, in my everlasting study of ideology, is that, while ideology is usually a false question, the NYT contains both a false question and a false answer!!!!!!!!! Okay, let's delineate. The false question: Are reparations justified? The false answer: No, because Africans also enslaved people. Then there's Tazzy's false answer B: No, because slavery was legal. The real question motivating the false one: is economic inequality along the lines of race a result of historical inequality? The real answer: Most definitely yes. The real solution: more tax cuts to or credit initiatives for the economically disadvantaged, a real enforcement of white-collar crime, equalizing sentences, defunding the prison industry, no more bailouts to rich bankers, no more socialism for the rich, less an emphasis on patronizing sadomasochistic charity practices that are ultimately tax-deductible and a cover for organized crime, etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. You cannot penalize someone today for doing what is legal until tomorrow. Now, if this was still the 60's, i would whole heartedly agree that there is a disparity among the races. As much as you may wish to argue there is no even playing field... and there isnt one unless you can afford one, which many white people cannot anymore, let alone blacks, hispanics, ect ect ect... its as even as its going to get. Money levels any playing field. Its the only color that matters. Some get lucky achieving that "race", others work hard to do so. Its there, available to any who desire it and work hard enough to achieve it. If someone doesnt, they only have themselves to blame. Now, if you feel so in need to pay someone for the guilt you feel in the slavery issue, tell me, how would you go about paying them? How much? for how long? Would is stop with this race? Who else would you owe? See, i feel no guilt over the slavery issue. I have none to feel. I never owned a slave, neither did any in my family tree. This guilt trip doesnt work. But, since you feel so guilty by the association of slavery in the US, cmail me on the other side and i will send you my address for you to send me a check as well. [:D] 1) That legality argument is by the wayside. My Nazi example stands. Morality trumps legality, at least in extreme circumstances. I believe in the spirit of the law; I suspect the letter of the law usually equates with some obscenity. (Any S/M participant should understand this last point!) 2) 'It's as even as it's going to get'..? Kind of silly, since American economic inequality is perhaps more unequal than ever before, at least more unequal than it was during most of the 20th century, also, notably, more unequal than it was during times of actual prosperity. There's a TON of good work to be done; any answer to the reparations debate doesn't change that. 3) The fact of the matter is that a large portion of the population is a leech on actual progress, and its 'successes' have nothing to do with hard work. Also, a lot of hard work, due to systemic flaws, actually produces negative value, of which the financial industry is just an exaggerated example. If you really want to get serious about this issue, we can easily observe that occupations that most consistently produce positive value (like waste management, for instance) consistently are monetarily valued the lowest. The implication is severe and hard for most people to swallow -- the system is, in many senses, exactly the opposite of how it should be. The most consistent way to make it big is through predation.

tazzygirl -> RE: African complicity in the slave trade.... (4/25/2010 1:32:26 AM)
I will say this again. I dont owe anyone anything in the way of reparation. Millions of people in the US can say the same thing. How would you keep my tax dollars seperate from someone who is a direct decendent of a slave owner? Now, if you wish to talk about employment numbers, native americans have an unemployment rate between 15 and 20%. I sure dont see anyone making a fuss over that or offering them reparations for land they had stolen from them, for being forced onto reservations ( think of them as death camps, because thats what they became), or for the loss of property and lives. If you dont like whats become of our schools, then get involved and take it to the polls. We are in a trillion dollar deficit. Exactly where do people think any money for reparations will come from?

VioletGray -> RE: African complicity in the slave trade.... (4/25/2010 1:55:08 AM)
quote: Now, more importantly, you really got a pecker? Sorry Shore, I missed this question last time LoL ...yeah. quote: ORIGINAL: FatDomDaddy To Viotets assertion that the Africans involved only kept slaves for a couple of days so they should get a pass...Wow... really... wow! That chattel slavery is STILL alive and well on the continent of Africa and the profits and players in the trade can still directly trace their business back over 500 years probably doesn't matter either. Good job of missing the point. That point being that since the many years of oppression and murder happened here, in this country, then we should deal with what happened here. I'm not saying they should get a pass, I'm just saying that they were the tip of the iceberg compared to what happened next. quote: Lets remember... White Americans put an END to chattel slavery in the United States. That's right... WHITE people ended it. Shed a lot of blood in an effort to give the government of the United States the ability to end it too. I'm not sure what your point is here? That white people don't suck? I'm all for judging people on their individual merits, so sure. Like I said I'm not sure what you're driving at here, but just in case it matters, whites also began slavery in America. Sooooo yeah. Please enlighten me. quote: Not miffed at all Violet....and I apologise if that is what you took from that. Yes I think it is an oversimplification...to the nth degree,almost tot the point of trivializing the whole conversation....on second thought perhaps I was a little miffed last night. This really isn't an issue that can be so blithly boiled down to such a trivial analogy.The actual idea of reparations has historicl precedence,therefor it can not be easily dismissed...on the other hand as you said in your first(I think) post the wrong was so huge and had such financial ramifications(much like the Native American's claim...we can't very well give back the land can we?)that it is unworkable in its scope. Just think of it as an aspect of the greater debate, rather than how it can all be summed up. Arguments against reparations have be fairly simple: "Why should I pay for something I had no hand in?" I'd also like to remind people reading that I'm not arguing for reparations one thing that hasn't been addressed yet is the impact. Let's say the government goes: "O-KAY. HERE'S your darn reparations! We'll trace your ancestors to those who owned them, and those descendants have to pay you money." There are people who would be PISSED. Can't say I blame them. Making people pay reparations for their ancestors I think would create a HUGE racial divide. It's not that people say "We shouldn't do this" that bothers me. It's the arguments for why not (for some people) that bother me. I'm o.k. with "No," if "No" has some clear well thought out reasons behind it.

slvemike4u -> RE: African complicity in the slave trade.... (4/25/2010 2:09:40 AM)
Okay,I can buy that..but perhaps the reason I can is that I happen to think I do have clear thought out reasons why it is unworkable....and by the way Violet I would go so far as to say you hit the nail right on the head with your racial divide point. That would be reason no.1....any attempt to actually go forward with this would set back racial relations in this country so far...that in a 150 years our descendants would be discussing reparation due those harmed by the divide !

ShoreBound149 -> RE: African complicity in the slave trade.... (4/25/2010 8:33:18 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ShoreBound149 And there are a great many rich, white privileged people that pump gobs of money into poor under privileged minority communities. quote: ORIGINAL:Thomsonx Really????how many???? http://philanthropy.com/article/The-Philanthropy-50-Americans/64019/ Here's the top 50 individual donors of 2009. That's just 50 out of countless people with money who donate. They are mostly white, some self made, mostly generational wealth. Look at the numbers fucktard. quote: Do they do it for free or do they get something back like tax breaks? What under privileged person gives a fuck why someone is providing them charity? Why do you? What does it fucking matter? You are an asshole. The tax breaks they are getting are an example of our government inspiring those with to help those without.

ShoreBound149 -> RE: African complicity in the slave trade.... (4/25/2010 8:55:11 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: VioletGray quote: Now, more importantly, you really got a pecker? Sorry Shore, I missed this question last time LoL ...yeah. Holeee Fuck. Anyone ever leave you thinking they just scored a peckerless hot black beauty?

SohCahToa -> RE: African complicity in the slave trade.... (4/25/2010 8:56:40 AM)
SFR Everyone has had ancestors that were slaves at some point, it's just a case of how far you want to go back. These societies that did trade in slaves weren't exactly a free society for all where everyone benefitted anyway. I find the whole notion of reparations for such things offensive due to the fact black people are made to feel like victims of a crime they never experienced and white people are made to feel like the perpetrators of it. Has anyone ever felt that by harping on about it we are just perpetuating the bitterness and resentment of one another? Look at South Africa those people there knew the importance of reconciliation in moving forward i.e. the opposite of trying to apportion blame. It's too chaotic to try and decide who deserves what. All it does is remind us of our differences, this cuts both ways you can't take the good without the bad. You'll continue it in the present which is just as bad as what went on in the past.

domiguy -> RE: African complicity in the slave trade.... (4/25/2010 9:23:25 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: FatDomDaddy To Viotets assertion that the Africans involved only kept slaves for a couple of days so they should get a pass...Wow... really... wow! That chattel slavery is STILL alive and well on the continent of Africa and the profits and players in the trade can still directly trace their business back over 500 years probably doesn't matter either. Lets remember... White Americans put an END to chattel slavery in the United States. That's right... WHITE people ended it. Shed a lot of blood in an effort to give the government of the United States the ability to end it too. Should the familes of white and black soliders who lost their lives in Army of the United States of America between 1861 and 1865 ensuring their government would be able to take measures ending slavery forever, get reparations too? I wonder for which side the FatDomDaddy's relatives fought for in the civil war? About 40% of the men in Maryland supported the confederacy. All of the previous FatDomDaddy's, I am convinced, would have been whistlin' dixie.

FatDomDaddy -> RE: African complicity in the slave trade.... (4/25/2010 12:55:57 PM)
None of my relatives came to this country until after 1885. Poor Irish and Italian famers were not propping up the slave trade. As for my thoughts on the American Civil War, I am a Unionist. I think the the southern cause was pretty much was the States's right to continue chattel slavery. Take Slavery out of the equation and their is no American Civil War, yet American law makers, who knew from the founding of the country that Slavery was both morally wrong and economically unfeasible, kept punting the ball down the road for ninety years. You know domiguy... you can take your faux white guilt and your assumptions and stick them. Violet... my point is, that it was a far more complicated institution, that was kept viable far longer than it should have naturally been for a myriad of reasons and that paying guilt money to a handful of folks is not going to change anything. I'll quote Dr. Walter Williams on the issue: Reparations advocates make the foolish unchallenged pronouncement that the United States became rich on the backs of free black labor. That's utter nonsense. Slavery has never had a very good record of producing wealth. Think about it. Slavery was all over the South. Buying into the reparations nonsense, you'd have to conclude that the antebellum South was rich and the slave-starved North was poor. The truth of the matter is just the opposite. In fact, the poorest states and regions of our country were places where slavery flourished: Mississippi, Alabama, and Georgia while the richest states and regions were those where slavery was absent: Pennsylvania, New York and Massachusetts In fact, the Good Doctor issued a pardon to the white race so they have that in the bank. http://econfaculty.gmu.edu/wew/gift.html BTW... there were several hundred Black, Creole and Native American slave owners. The descendants of their slaves number in tens of thousands... are they going to get this guilt money too??? How about the descendants of the slaves in Caribbean, in Central and South America, in Northern Africa? When you dole it all out to each individual descendent and current victims of the African slave trade will the four bucks in your pocket make you feel better?

domiguy -> RE: African complicity in the slave trade.... (4/25/2010 2:03:49 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: FatDomDaddy You know domiguy... you can take your faux white guilt and your assumptions and stick them. I'll quote Dr. Walter Williams on the issue: Reparations advocates make the foolish unchallenged pronouncement that the United States became rich on the backs of free black labor. That's utter nonsense. Slavery has never had a very good record of producing wealth. Think about it. Slavery was all over the South. Buying into the reparations nonsense, you'd have to conclude that the antebellum South was rich and the slave-starved North was poor. The truth of the matter is just the opposite. In fact, the poorest states and regions of our country were places where slavery flourished: Mississippi, Alabama, and Georgia while the richest states and regions were those where slavery was absent: Pennsylvania, New York and Massachusetts In fact, the Good Doctor issued a pardon to the white race so they have that in the bank. http://econfaculty.gmu.edu/wew/gift.html The Good doctor probably should go back to school. quote: ORIGINAL: FatDomDaddy Slavery was all over the South. Buying into the reparations nonsense, you'd have to conclude that the antebellum South was rich and the slave-starved North was poor. Why would the Good doctor conclude this? The south was rural the north was industry. The majority of slaves were utilized on plantations...While the majority of the plantations were successful entities the majority of the surrounding south due to the lack of industry remained in poverty Rural areas today outside of successful farms are still traditionally regulated to a life of poverty. Little has changed. A very simplistic view of slavery. You chose to accept the "good doctors" assessment because of it's over all simplicity and that it agreed with your preconceived ideology. This is the same pathology that would allow someone to be duped by the teabaggers or believe that there were wmd's. Get your own brain, then try using it. Reperations are a joke. But to try and downplay the history of slavery and minimize our own part in this tragedy because some Afrikans engaged in the trade of slaves is just idiotic.

MasterDonfromPA -> RE: African complicity in the slave trade.... (4/25/2010 2:11:32 PM)
this whole issue is ridiculous in the extreme, in different times people thought and felt differently, we no longer think that way due to the evolution of the thought processes, and I am NOT ABOUT TO apologize for the actions of my ancestors, for that matter My ancestors were Irish so who's going to apologize to me, the simple truth is in the 1860's when the Irish were an unwanted abused minority I wasn't there and my Irish ancestry hurt me not one little bit, so why would I want or need an apology, its silliness in the extreme and just demonstrates more of the blameless society this worlds trying to build, Its not your fault your a rapist your mommy didn't love you enough, its well past time we as so called "evolved" people start accepting responsibility for our OWN actions you make a choice to be angry, don't blame my grandaddy bumping into your grandma, its all on YOU and Just on YOU

vincentML -> RE: African complicity in the slave trade.... (4/25/2010 5:26:29 PM)
quote: Reperations are a joke. But to try and downplay the history of slavery and minimize our own part in this tragedy because some Afrikans engaged in the trade of slaves is just idiotic. I can agree with both statements. It was seriously distressing to me to read descriptions of the Middle Passage, the brutality of slavery on farms and plantations, the desperate attempts to escape or rebel, the nonsense of the South's Lost Cause, the failure of reconstruction, the prison farms, chain gangs, night rider terror and lynchings that followed after Appomattox, and the Jim Crow laws that remained in force well through the 1950s. I don't doubt this "nation conceived in liberty" carries a terrible, dark stain on it's soul. And I am damn proud we elected an African-American as President. It was time. But what value do you place on human lives lost in the Black Holocaust? Are we talking 1860 dollars or 1980 dollars? Or maybe 40 acres and a mule as promised and then reneged? And if I wished to contribute my slim pension income which I certainly do not, who should I give it to? Oprah Winfrey? Michael Jordan? Tiger Woods? Or perhaps to some successful Black physicians, scientists, judges, politicians, journalists, artists, actors, musicians, educators, etc? Or will the recipients be means tested? Oh wait, we did that already. Lyndon Johnson called it "The Great Society." Been there, done that. There is a Black middle class whose success rests upon merit. They can and must show the way to the Black underclass. Just as successful Caucasians must act as role models to the White underclass. [not to ignore crossover] The debate over reparations is an embarrassing anachonism or worse as someone pointed out above it will reopen wounds that are still festering. There are fringes on both sides who will not reconcile. A shame really.

kiwisub12 -> RE: African complicity in the slave trade.... (4/25/2010 5:59:06 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: VioletGray I'm not sure what your point is here? That white people don't suck? I'm all for judging people on their individual merits, so sure. Like I said I'm not sure what you're driving at here, but just in case it matters, whites also began slavery in America. Sooooo yeah. Please enlighten me. Just for interest sake - I'm pretty sure that the Native Americans (i hate that term) raided and kept slaves on the American continent way before the white man ever turned up on its shores. So do they get money too?

kiwisub12 -> RE: African complicity in the slave trade.... (4/25/2010 6:08:35 PM)
I'd be really interested to see how "they" would figure out reparations - would claimants have to prove lineage to a slave, and if they can prove lineage to more than one, do they get more money? And the ones that can't prove slave ancestry - are they therefore not considered victims in all this, and have to pull up their socks and get on with their lives? Does the degree of "blackness" work into the equation? If there were too many white people in the old family tree, does that mean less money? I would agree that the idea of reparations is unworkable. I'm pretty sure that at least someone in the government has apologised to descendants of slaves, and that is going to be the most anyone is going to get. As horrific as the experiences of those poor people was, it is over, there is nothing we can do to make what they endured less horrible, and the idea of reparations is lessening what they suffered to monetary terms. And yes, money can make some things better, but not in this instance - when all the people we are talking about are dead.

vincentML -> RE: African complicity in the slave trade.... (4/25/2010 6:15:39 PM)
quote: I'm pretty sure that at least someone in the government has apologised to descendants of slaves, and that is going to be the most anyone is going to get. Obama praises 'historic' Senate slavery apology

Silence8 -> RE: African complicity in the slave trade.... (4/25/2010 9:32:18 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML quote: Reperations are a joke. But to try and downplay the history of slavery and minimize our own part in this tragedy because some Afrikans engaged in the trade of slaves is just idiotic. I can agree with both statements. It was seriously distressing to me to read descriptions of the Middle Passage, the brutality of slavery on farms and plantations, the desperate attempts to escape or rebel, the nonsense of the South's Lost Cause, the failure of reconstruction, the prison farms, chain gangs, night rider terror and lynchings that followed after Appomattox, and the Jim Crow laws that remained in force well through the 1950s. I don't doubt this "nation conceived in liberty" carries a terrible, dark stain on it's soul. And I am damn proud we elected an African-American as President. It was time. But what value do you place on human lives lost in the Black Holocaust? Are we talking 1860 dollars or 1980 dollars? Or maybe 40 acres and a mule as promised and then reneged? And if I wished to contribute my slim pension income which I certainly do not, who should I give it to? Oprah Winfrey? Michael Jordan? Tiger Woods? Or perhaps to some successful Black physicians, scientists, judges, politicians, journalists, artists, actors, musicians, educators, etc? Or will the recipients be means tested? Oh wait, we did that already. Lyndon Johnson called it "The Great Society." Been there, done that. There is a Black middle class whose success rests upon merit. They can and must show the way to the Black underclass. Just as successful Caucasians must act as role models to the White underclass. [not to ignore crossover] The debate over reparations is an embarrassing anachonism or worse as someone pointed out above it will reopen wounds that are still festering. There are fringes on both sides who will not reconcile. A shame really. This thread fascinates me in that I don't think I've ever seen so many 'fetching' arguments packed so densely together. One such argument, represented above, is that, apparently, if a misdeed is too big to value, it does not exist. Amazingly, notice how this all parallels the financial crisis -- when bankers cause the American economy to lose trillions of dollars, and then require about a trillion to stay in business, no one up top even gets probation. When ordinary citizens steal food to survive, they're facing years in prison, with mostly black 'roommates'. Basically, any physical action is culpable, right? That doesn't sound like freedom; sounds a whole lot like slavery. So, yeah, let's get riled up by the idea of helping out the descendants of slaves. Heaven forbid they get a cent; they might move out of their 'special' neighborhoods and ruin the suburban dream of never thinking again.

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